Peace on Earth?

[loverofhumanity]

This is false. If anything, the inverse is true. We expect the Messiah to be born of a regular human mother and father, not descending from heaven or born from a god.


Who is telling you these things?!? We don't expect a kingdom to come from the sky. This is not brought in any Jewish sources.

Didnt you expect Him to conquer east and west, to be established on the throne of David?

 

[Tumah]

Didnt you expect Him to conquer east and west, to be established on the throne of David?

We expect a normal albeit especially righteous human to be the Messiah. He will descend directly from David, son after son. His mother will be a human as well. After fulfilling all the prophecies the Messiah aught to fulfill, he will be raised as the monarch of the country of Israel. We are not expecting a conqueror. It's possible that in recognition of the miraculous events that may occur at that time other nations will want to submit to the Israelite monarchy as representative of G-d's reign in the world. But that's on them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We expect a normal albeit especially righteous human to be the Messiah. He will descend directly from David, son after son. His mother will be a human as well. After fulfilling all the prophecies the Messiah aught to fulfill, he will be raised as the monarch of the country of Israel. We are not expecting a conqueror. It's possible that in recognition of the miraculous events that may occur at that time other nations will want to submit to the Israelite monarchy as representative of G-d's reign in the world. But that's on them.

Thanks for clarifying that. Wasn’t Christ descended from David? And wasn’t He righteous? How come He is not seen as the Messiah by the Jews?

 

[loverofhumanity]

We expect a normal albeit especially righteous human to be the Messiah. He will descend directly from David, son after son. His mother will be a human as well. After fulfilling all the prophecies the Messiah aught to fulfill, he will be raised as the monarch of the country of Israel. We are not expecting a conqueror. It's possible that in recognition of the miraculous events that may occur at that time other nations will want to submit to the Israelite monarchy as representative of G-d's reign in the world. But that's on them.

Can you show me the prophecies that’s you refer to?

 

[Tumah]

Thanks for clarifying that. Wasn’t Christ descended from David? And wasn’t He righteous? How come He is not seen as the Messiah by the Jews?

Jesus' father (and by extension, his father's line) is not known. He was also not righteous: He attempted to annul the Law and disregarded the enactments of the Rabbis (itself a transgression of the Law). He also didn't fulfill *any* of the Messianic prophecies. No in-gathering of the exiled. No establishing the Temple. Peace was not established in the world. People are still dying. The whole world doesn't know the G-d of the Jews. etc.

If anything, thing only got worse after he "came". I don't see any reason to even consider the possibility of him being the messiah.

 

[Tumah]

Can you show me the prophecies that’s you refer to?

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

 

[metis]

Let me just mention that Aquinas believed that if one viewed the Tanakh/OT as being inerrant, then Jesus could not have been the Messiah.

 

[joe1776]

The 'average level of violence' matters not one jot to world peace. What matters is the total destructiveness of the violence

It seems your position has shifted.

Your earlier position was that "The argument against Pinker's thesis is that the decline in violence relies on there not being a major nuclear war in the future."

Now, your claim is that the 'average level of violence' in human nature, which Pinker is trying to measure, doesn't matter.

So, please clarify your position; is it a or b?:

a) Pinker's thesis can be falsified by a thermonuclear war;

b) Even if Pinker is right, it doesn't matter.

 

[Augustus]

So, please clarify your position; is it a or b?:

a) Pinker's thesis can be falsified by a thermonuclear war;

b) Even if Pinker is right, it doesn't matter.

a) + b) 'average per capita violence' decreasing would be a very hollow victory if total violence is increasing.

 

[joe1776]

a) + b) 'average per capita violence' decreasing would be a very hollow victory if total violence is increasing.

Your "hollow victory" statement is an almost-but-not-quite admission that you now realize that you were mistaken in making the claim that Pinker's thesis can be falsified by a thermonuclear war.

You are also mistaken about the "hollow victory." A nuclear war that killed millions of people would be tragic, but since it would not change human nature, that would only mean that humanity would continue on its path to global harmony with a somewhat smaller population and probably greater resolve.

 

[Augustus]

Your "hollow victory" statement is an almost-but-not-quite admission that you now realize that you were mistaken in making the claim that Pinker's thesis can be falsified by a thermonuclear war.

You are also mistaken about the "hollow victory." A nuclear war that killed millions of people would be tragic, but since it would not change human nature, that would only mean that humanity would continue on its path to global harmony with a somewhat smaller population and probably greater resolve.

Mistaken? I'm very much of the opinion that a few hundred million dead would somewhat reverse the trend. Pinker himself acknowledges this in the book you are referring to. While there are flaws in his reasoning he at least attempts to be scientific and rational rather than utopian. His argument is nothing at all like yours, as I've explained in previous discussions.

Also, seeing as you state a nuclear war wouldn't change human nature then we can be certain global harmony will never arise because many humans are violent and we have billions of them and many powerful weapons.

 

[Dantedeven]

There can never be peace. Always there will be someone who wants revenge for something.

 

[joe1776]

Mistaken? I'm very much of the opinion that a few hundred million dead would somewhat reverse the trend. Pinker himself acknowledges this in the book you are referring to. While there are flaws in his reasoning he at least attempts to be scientific and rational rather than utopian. His argument is nothing at all like yours, as I've explained in previous discussions.

Also, seeing as you state a nuclear war wouldn't change human nature then we can be certain global harmony will never arise because many humans are violent and we have billions of them and many powerful weapons.

About the only thing we can agree on is that my argument and Pinker's are not the same. He could have made his argument much stronger if he had simply pointed out that technological advances in weaponry produce a negative bias on the numbers-killed stats in the same way that population increases produce a negative bias.

The Second World War, because of technological advances in transportation and weaponry, along with population increases, put far more combatants at war with far more effective weapons than any war in the past. And yet, with only the adjustment of population stats Pinker's numbers look good but they should have been better.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

Thanks. With so many different views I wonder how you would all agree on the Messiah. That always leaves open the possibility that He may come and go without many recognising Him because the prophecies may not all be literal but symbolic.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Jesus' father (and by extension, his father's line) is not known. He was also not righteous: He attempted to annul the Law and disregarded the enactments of the Rabbis (itself a transgression of the Law). He also didn't fulfill *any* of the Messianic prophecies. No in-gathering of the exiled. No establishing the Temple. Peace was not established in the world. People are still dying. The whole world doesn't know the G-d of the Jews. etc.

If anything, thing only got worse after he "came". I don't see any reason to even consider the possibility of him being the messiah.

Maybe some of those prophecies were referring to our times not then. Aren’t you waiting for Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David?

Another thing is unless you have an authoritative infallible interpreter of the Torah how can anyone be certain they have interpreted correctly? The human mind errs and makes mistakes. When we write off the prophecies as not being fulfilled it is with the knowledge that we are fallible and our interpretations may be wrong, no?

 

[bubbleguppy]

Looking at the past and current psychological research, I'd say we're probably just going to stay at a plateau; there will end up being a shift in where peace and war is happening, but like it's gonna be relatively stable for a long time. Hopefully. As long as we don't end up in a full-on nuclear war.

 

[Tumah]

Thanks. With so many different views I wonder how you would all agree on the Messiah. That always leaves open the possibility that He may come and go without many recognising Him because the prophecies may not all be literal but symbolic.

There are only two Orthodox positions quoted (the Chabad one is not accepted by most Chabad people and non-Chabad) and they are not mutually exclusive.

There is no such possibility because it would be ridiculous for G-d to send us all these prophecies of hope, only to be so vague that an omniscient G-d causes us to be mistaken in their interpretation. G-d's not a fool and he's not trying to trick us. We are not Christians and we do not believe that G-d plays games like that.

Maybe some of those prophecies were referring to our times not then.

I hope that some of these prophecies are beginning to be fulfilled in our times as this will point to the imminent arrival of the Messiah. But we won't know until it happens.

Aren’t you waiting for Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David?

Yes, but they live within the same time-period and have different jobs. It's not two people bringing two separate redemptions, they're both part of the same redemption.

Another thing is unless you have an authoritative infallible interpreter of the Torah how can anyone be certain they have interpreted correctly? The human mind errs and makes mistakes. When we write off the prophecies as not being fulfilled it is with the knowledge that we are fallible and our interpretations may be wrong, no?

Yes, our Rabbis have power of authoritative interpretation. It was given to us, it is ours. Any interpretation that is sourced in our Oral Torah and does not contradict it, is true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, but they live within the same time-period and have different jobs. It's not two people bringing two separate redemptions, they're both part of the same redemption.

Yet knowing this, does no mean they will be accepted.

I see 3 World faiths, that have the Holy Land as a core of the Faith, that one and all could be a fulfillment of this aspect.

John the Baptist and Jesus the Christ,
Ali and Muhammad
Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Tumah]

Yet knowing this, does no mean they will be accepted.

I see 3 World faiths, that have the Holy Land as a core of the Faith, that one and all could be a fulfillment of this aspect.

John the Baptist and Jesus the Christ,
Ali and Muhammad
Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

I think you are misunderstanding. They don't need to be accepted by the world in order to be the Jewish Messiah. They need to be accepted by the Jews in order to be the Jewish Messiah. The world is not what is prophesied as as who it is that will be redeemed, it is the Jews who today are in exile, that will be redeemed. The Messiah is a Jewish concept for the Jewish people: just as Moses redeemed us from Egypt and Ezra took us out of the Babylonian exile, this third person will take us out of this last exile. The Egyptians and Babylonians didn't need to accept Moses and Ezra for who they are and what they would do. The world doesn't need to accept the Messiah either.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think you are misunderstanding. They don't need to be accepted by the world in order to be the Jewish Messiah. They need to be accepted by the Jews in order to be the Jewish Messiah. The world is not what is prophesied as as who it is that will be redeemed, it is the Jews who today are in exile, that will be redeemed. The Messiah is a Jewish concept for the Jewish people: just as Moses redeemed us from Egypt and Ezra took us out of the Babylonian exile, this third person will take us out of this last exile. The Egyptians and Babylonians didn't need to accept Moses and Ezra for who they are and what they would do. The world doesn't need to accept the Messiah either.

It is in acceptance that redemption is found.

Regards Tony