Peace & Security or Sudden Destruction?

[URAVIP2ME]

But the reality is that there are tyrants, so the next point is whether we are going to let innocent people to get killed by tyrants? I vote "no" if I can help it.
I was totally opposed to the Vietnam "War" on moral grounds, and my wife and I had plans to go to live in Canada if I were to get drafted.

Jesus also was opposed to men's wars, and Jesus taught to be and remain ' neutral ' in world affairs.
Yes, the reality is that there are still tyrants. Please note Ecclesiastes 8:9.
Regarding men's history, Solomon observed that man has dominated man to man's injury or man's hurt.
How could running away to Canada have stopped the tyrants of the 60's __________
In NYC I was a Vietnam protester, and although that was before I was a Bible reader, I knew what Jesus taught at Matthew 26:52, and then later to learn what Jesus said at Revelation 13:10.
On what grounds did Jesus teach to remain ' neutral ' in men's affairs ____________
If everyone refused to go to war on 'moral' grounds, then there would be No one to fight.
When have you seen the world leaders or tyrants do their own fighting, or do they send out others out to do the fighting for them.
Even the corrupted clergy are in bed with the tyrants using the pulpit as a recruiting station for them so that parents will send their young out to be sacrificed on the Altar of War as it that is the same as the Altar of God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Wow....All through out Watchtower history, the UN was the spawn of Satan, now "with backing", it's the arm of God!

In Scripture, I find that in the past God used the political/military to be His 'long arm of law' to carry out His justice.
* When ancient Israel proved unfaithful God used the Babylonian armies against them. Putting them in exile for 70 years.
* When 'unfaithful Jerusalem' proved unfaithful in the years 66-70 God used the Roman armies against them.
Thus, please notice the pattern, and that is why we can say God will once again use the political/military against those who prove unfaithful.
* Christendom (apostate Christians) has proved unfaithful like those in the past, so there is No reason to Not think that God will once again use the political/military realm to be His ' arm of the law '.
That is why we can say with the support and backing of people the United Nations can prove to be God's modern-day 'arm of the law' to carry out His justice against trouble-causing religion.

 

[Oeste]

But, they heard from God! Now, it seems that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses does not hear from God. They need to be in tune with The Beast to know stuff that I am sure God knows.

Well it's the same question I asked @Deeje...when you're sitting on the Governing Board of God's only "true" religious Organization, and you need accurate information that for some reason Jehovah's not giving you, where else does one go but to the Wild Beast's "information programmes", and as Dejee pointed out, "That's exactly what we did".

And as @nPeace has pointed out, he truthfully answers that he just doesn't see what the fuss is about. This helps us answer your question about whether they are blind.

 

[Oeste]

No reason to Not think that God will once again use the political/military realm to be His ' arm of the law '.

That is why we can say with the support and backing of people the United Nations can prove to be God's modern-day 'arm of the law' to carry out His justice against trouble-causing religion.

So "with the support and backing of people" the Wild Beast can prove to be God's modern-day 'arm of the law' ??

And the people who back the Wild Beast...they will be following God and not Satan, because God wants to use the Wild Beast/United Nations in a holy war to kill Christians and destroy Christianity???

Where on earth does this political/military information come from?

Is this something you read in a Watchtower publication?
Is this something you heard at a Kingdom Hall?
Is this something you heard on a Watchtower broadcast?
Is this something you heard during a recent Assembly?
Is this something the Governing Board heard from the Wild Beast?
Or is this something we can read in scripture?

Also, is this something JW's hope and/or believe, or is this something you simply fantasize about?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

..............And the people who back the Wild Beast...they will be following God and not Satan, because God wants to use the Wild Beast/United Nations in a holy war to kill Christians and destroy Christianity???

I find there is a BIG difference between Christianity and Christendom (apostate Christianity)
Think about this: When the ancient Israelites became unfaithful God did Not let that rest - Ezekiel 8:16
Think about this: When the Jews became unfaithful in ancient Jerusalem (years 66-70), God did Not let that rest.
Think about this: When Christendom (Not Christianity) became unfaithful, will God let that rest _______
There is an old adage that a ' new broom sweeps clean ' meaning God's House (of worship) needs a spring cleaning.
We learn about this ' cleansing ' to take place at 1 Peter 4:17 because spiritual house cleaning will start or begin with the ' House of God '. Thus, that means Not destroy Christianity, but definitely destroy unfaithful Christendom (so-called Christian but mostly 'in name only').
Since Christendom claims to follow the God of the Bible is why judgement will start with Christendom.
Christendom is the fake 'weed/tares' Christians, whereas genuine Christianity are the ' wheat ' Christians who adhere to '1st-century teachings of Jesus' as taught in Scripture.
So, although all of Babylon the Great's religious world will be destroyed, before destruction can come to genuine ' wheat ' Christians is when the executional words from Jesus' mouth will rescue, deliver, save ' wheat ' Christians.
- Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16; Revelation 7:9; Revelation 7:14.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Also, is this something JW's hope and/or believe, or is this something you simply fantasize about?

If you want to research what Jehovah's Witnesses believe that can be found at www.jw.org. www.jwbroadcasting

 

[Oeste]

I find there is a BIG difference between Christianity and Christendom (apostate Christianity)

Christendom includes all Christianity whether you consider them “apostate” or not. In other words, it includes the global community of Christians. When you condemn “Christendom” you are simply condemning yourself.

There is an old adage that a ' new broom sweeps clean ' meaning God's House (of worship) needs a spring cleaning.

We learn about this ' cleansing ' to take place at 1 Peter 4:17 because spiritual house cleaning will start or begin with the ' House of God '.

It starts with yourself not with “Christendom” URAVIP2ME. Until you repent you remain in your sins. When has your Organization ever repented? Come to think of it, when have they ever apologized?

Thus, that means Not destroy Christianity, but definitely destroy unfaithful Christendom (so-called Christian but mostly 'in name only').

How will the “so-called Christians” you point out now be any different than the “so-called Germans” the Nazi’s pointed out in the Thirties?

I think we’ve heard this tune before URAVIP2ME. IMO, it's simply not a song Christians need sing and certainly nothing we should encourage others to dance to.

Since Christendom claims to follow the God of the Bible is why judgement will start with Christendom.

Matthew 7:1-3 “Judge not, that ye be not judged… “

Christendom is the fake 'weed/tares' Christians, whereas genuine Christianity are the ' wheat ' Christians who adhere to '1st-century teachings of Jesus' as taught in Scripture.

“For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again…”

So, although all of Babylon the Great's religious world will be destroyed, before destruction can come to genuine ' wheat ' Christians is when the executional words from Jesus' mouth will rescue, deliver, save ' wheat ' Christians.

“And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

If you want to research what Jehovah's Witnesses believe that can be found at www.jw.org. www.jwbroadcasting

As I suspected, there is ZERO scriptural basis for any “teaching” that the Wild Beast is an “arm of God”. Instead we’re directed to a website where the unwary reader might ingest more hateful nonsense.

 

[nPeace]

As I suspected, there is ZERO scriptural basis for any “teaching” that the Wild Beast is an “arm of God”. Instead we’re directed to a website where the unwary reader might ingest more hateful nonsense.

Revelation 17:17 For God did put in their hearts to do his mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.

 

[savagewind]

Well it's the same question I asked @Deeje...when you're sitting on the Governing Board of God's only "true" religious Organization, and you need accurate information that for some reason Jehovah's not giving you, where else does one go but to the Wild Beast's "information programmes", and as Dejee pointed out, "That's exactly what we did".

And as @nPeace has pointed out, he truthfully answers that he just doesn't see what the fuss is about. This helps us answer your question about whether they are blind.

The way in which the organization of the Jehovah's Witnesses is set up and perhaps other religious organizations, if Jesus Christ were to speak, the JWs would not listen if he said anything other than what the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses approves to be true.

 

[metis]

Jesus also was opposed to men's wars, and Jesus taught to be and remain ' neutral ' in world affairs.

Repeating the above over and over again simply avoids the context, nor does it make one iota of sense as it basically disregards the God of Torah.

 

[savagewind]

The Jehovah's Witnesses seem to ignore the power of God's Spirit. If I had to obey my government and go to war against Hitler I would TRUST God's Spirit to prevent me from ever killing my brother of another nation. It is quite simple, I imagine.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Repeating the above over and over again simply avoids the context, nor does it make one iota of sense as it basically disregards the God of Torah.

Context shows what Christendom has named herself is out of harmony with Jesus' Lord's Prayer found at John 17:14-16.
Genuine followers are 'No part of the world....' because it is out of harmony with Matthew 26:52; Rev. 13:10

 

[Oeste]

Revelation 17:17 For God did put in their hearts to do his mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.

I can’t believe that “Jehovah Witnesses” of all people, are seriously trying to suggest, much less convince anyone that the “Wild Beast” of Revelation is “an arm of God”.

And this idea that the Unites Nations will suddenly turn on Christians and “destroy Christendom” because it’s something God wants is simply the shared fantasy and life-long pipe-dream of ISIS, the Taliban, and your Governing Board .

Nothing in this verse tells us the Wild Beast is an arm of God! I’m amazed any such a claim could be put out there, right in front of your congregations, and stated with a straight face. Did anyone even bother to read the verse in context ??! They are waging war against the LAMB! So how on earth does the Beast become an arm of GOD???

11 The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.14 These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.15 And he said to me, The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth. (Revelation 17)​

What next @nPeace? If someone can tell you this one, lone single verse means the Wild Beast is the arm of God, that same person can tell you Jehovah blesses those who bash children against the rocks:

“Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” Psalm 137:9​

How on earth did the Wild Beast go from the spawn of Satan to the Arm of God? Did the bible change? Did someone not notice this verse before? Where did this “new light” come from? Is it the same GB member who convinced your Organization to hook up with the 'Wild Beast' in the first place? Are JW’s so immature in their studies that discernment has abandoned them? What does the bible say? :

Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. (Psalm 139:9)​

I believe there are JW’s on this forum who know in their heart this teaching is wrong but feel you must follow the Organization rather than your conscience and God. The Jews of the 1st Century faced a similar quandary:

His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. (John 9:22).​

The Jews felt “Where else can we pray?”, and the JW’s feel “Where else can we go?” whereas God has always told us to come to Him for salvation. As Christians, we do NOT have to go to any particular Temple, Mountain, or Organization:

Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. (John 4:20-22)​

JW’s may want to ask themselves: Where did Jesus and his apostles feel they must go to worship? Was it at the temples? At certain, predesignated church houses? No. They worshiped anywhere, anyplace, at any time in spirit and truth, the same way Christians can do today.

 

[Oeste]

Context shows what Christendom has named herself is out of harmony with Jesus' Lord's Prayer found at John 17:14-16.
Genuine followers are 'No part of the world....' because it is out of harmony with Matthew 26:52; Rev. 13:10

As @metis has already pointed out, you can't go beyond what is written in order to insert you own humanistic ideals into scripture. The God of the Old is also God of the New.

As Christians we follow Jesus Christ, and as Christ, Jesus follows the Father. Christians do not worship a hypocritical God, one who proclaims "Do as I say but never as I have done".

If Christians are not willing to lift a hand for others facing violence, how do can we expect Christ to come lend a hand for us? Besides, it's pretty clear you guys are earnestly and enthusiastically praying for God to kill off "Christendom" which seems a bit strange for such a peace loving Organization.

​

The real basic "truth" here is that Christians and "Christendom" have become to JW's what Jews and Judaism became to the Nazis. Just something that, once removed, will help usher the earth into paradise.

​

It's really sad, because I know of no traditional Christian church today that prays for the death and destruction of JW's and their Kingdom Halls.

 

[nPeace]

@Oeste when @URAVIP2ME said the arm of God, what do you think he meant?
When Jehovah referred to Nebuchadnezzar as his servant, what did he mean?
Jeremiah 25:9 I am sending for all the families of the north,” declares Jehovah, “sending for King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of horror and something to whistle at and a perpetual ruin.

Do you imagine it meant that Jehovah spoke to the King of Babylon and said, "Hey buddy. I got a job for you. You see these people here. Go destroy them."
No Oeste that's not what it meant, and that's not what URAVIP2ME meant. He explained himself more than once, when he mentioned that events will lead to the attack of the harlot by the beast, but the scriptures say in Revelation 17:17, that they will carry out God's thoughts, because they would have a common purpose.

Read the text again, please.
For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

In other words, the beast will have a thought to carry out, and Jehovah will not prevent it, because their thought is his thought, so they have a common purpose.
This is similar to the situation with the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. So that's what @URAVIP2ME meant by the beast being Jehovah's arm.

Do you understand?
Is this not why Jesus said, "Pay attention to how you listen." (Luke 8:18)

 

[nPeace]

@Oeste

If Christians are not willing to lift a hand for others facing violence, how do can we expect Christ to come lend a hand for us? Besides, it's pretty clear you guys are earnestly and enthusiastically praying for God to kill off "Christendom" which seems a bit strange for such a peace loving Organization.

To JWs, it is understandable why this may seem strange to some.
Could it be the case that it is strange because of perhaps not understanding the will of God, as described in his word?
Is it not written...?
Read Isaiah 34, please, and note verse 8 - For Jehovah has a day of vengeance, A year of retribution for the legal case over Zion.
Why do you think Jehovah takes vengeance against Moab, in behalf of Israel? (Jeremiah 11:20; 46:10; Ezekiel 25:17) Do you think he is wrong to take vengeance?

Did he not explain why he takes vengeance (Romans 12:19), and was it not part of the message to be preached?
Isaiah 61:1-3
1 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners, 2 To proclaim the year of Jehovah’s goodwill And the day of vengeance of our God, To comfort all who mourn, 3 To provide for those mourning over Zion, To give them a headdress instead of ashes, The oil of exultation instead of mourning, The garment of praise instead of a despondent spirit. And they will be called big trees of righteousness, The planting of Jehovah, in order to glorify him.

Did you notice how the harlot is described in Revelation 17:6, and Revelation 18:1-4? Don't you want for that to be removed completely, and don't you think God has the right to repay her for her acts which caused so many deaths, and her feeling smug about it, at that? Revelation 18:5-8

In part, what you said here is correct.

The real basic "truth" here is that Christians and "Christendom" have become to JW's what Jews and Judaism became to the Nazis. Just something that, once removed, will help usher the earth into paradise.

However, Jehovah takes vengeance. He is the one that does the cleaning up, and he is the one to bring Paradise.
JWs do the work Jesus commissioned. He said, "this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."
So it is not that we are not giving the witness.
Noah gave a witness too, but how many were saved?

Evidently, what we are seeing is only what is written.
I think it is entirely up to us to determine which part of the script we fit into.

 

[savagewind]

Evidently, what we are seeing is only what is written.
I think it is entirely up to us to determine which part of the script we fit into.

What you see is only how you interpret what is written. And, I know I can not judge my place with Jehovah as it is clearly forbidden to do so. Matthew 7:1-4

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

As @metis has already pointed out, you can't go beyond what is written in order to insert you own humanistic ideals into scripture. The God of the Old is also God of the New.
As Christians we follow Jesus Christ, and as Christ, Jesus follows the Father. Christians do not worship a hypocritical God, one who proclaims "Do as I say but never as I have done".
If Christians are not willing to lift a hand for others facing violence, how do can we expect Christ to come lend a hand for us? Besides, it's pretty clear you guys are earnestly and enthusiastically praying for God to kill off "Christendom" which seems a bit strange for such a peace loving Organizatio.

I agree, Christians should Not go beyond what Jesus taught at Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10.
Jesus, nor his 1st-centruy followers, were part of any military. They were neutral.
They did Not even get involved in the 'issues of the day' between the Jews verses the Romans.
The neighborly good Samaritan was Not only willing to lift a hand, but went out of his way in helping.
Facing violence is in self defence, Not going out to kill another at political whims.

The Constitution of the Mosaic Law was only for one nation, and that was the nation of ancient Israel.
Jesus fulfilled that temporary Law as per Romans 10:4. So, Christians are Not under that Law.
Christians expect Christ to come lend a hand at the coming time of the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
The 'executional words from Jesus' mouth' will rid the Earth of the wicked -> Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
Jesus wants ALL to repent, and at 2 Peter 3:9 we are ALL (everyone inside and outside of Christendom ) asked to 'repent' if we do Not wish to ' perish ' (be destroyed).
Unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70 proved unfaithful to God, so all who prove unfaithful to God will have the same outcome as did the people in unfaithful Jerusalem in the year 70.
That is Not praying for God to kill off ' Christendom ' but praying those in Christendom and elsewhere will repent.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The judgement of Matthew 7 is in connection to ' personal judgements '.
We are Not to impute a bad or a wrong motive to another.
However, we are Not to stand in judgement about God's already recorded judgement as found in Scripture.
Even the 'human judges' of Psalms 82 were to use God's judgement as the standard to judge right or wrong.

 

[Oeste]

@Oeste when @URAVIP2ME said the arm of God, what do you think he meant?
When Jehovah referred to Nebuchadnezzar as his servant, what did he mean?

Why conflate Nebuchadnezzar with the Wild Beast? Nebuchadnezzar was sent by God to punish Israel. The Wild Beast is not sent by God to punish anyone.

So yes, Nebuchadnezzar was an “arm of God”, but the Wild Beast, who wages war against the Lamb, is never an “arm of God” because God does not wage war against the Lamb. Did God wage war against Israel from time to time? Sure. Against the Lamb? Never.

Do you imagine it meant that Jehovah spoke to the King of Babylon and said, "Hey buddy. I got a job for you. You see these people here. Go destroy them."

Again, the Wild Beast is not Nebuchadnezzar and should not be equated with him.

Read the text again, please.
For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

I did, that is verse 17. Now read this text again, please. It’s verses 12-14, just a few verses prior:

12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”​

Nebuchadnezzar was Divinely sent against Israel , but the Wild Beast was never Divinely sent against the Lamb. There is nothing at Revelation 17:17 to suggest it was. That is the difference, and it’s not slight or nuanced, it’s huge.

There is another problem. Not only was the Beast never Divinely sent against the Lamb, it is never Divinely sent against the Whore.

God sends the thought to relinquish authority into the hearts of the 10 kings, not the Beast. The beast is actually an eighth king that is of the seven kings who had kingdoms, but not of the 10 who did not have kingdoms.

In other words, the beast will have a thought to carry out, and Jehovah will not prevent it, because their thought is his thought,...

The thoughts of the Beast are not and do not become the thoughts of God. The thought placed by God is to be of the same mind, and that was given to the 10 kings.

...so they have a common purpose.

The purpose of the Beast is to rule the earth, receive worship, deceive/ kill the Saints and defeat the Lamb. I am sure you will agree that is not “common purpose” with Jehovah.

Rev 17:17 simply tells us how God has and will re-purpose mankind's fallen plans to His glory because all creation must work within the sovereign will of God. However this does not make the perpetrator of such fallen plans His agent.

"But", you may ask, "the Beast not only attacks the Lamb, it also attacks the Whore. Wouldn’t this lone fact make the Beast ‘an arm of God’?"

Let me answer it this way:

ISIS and the Taliban are in Afghanistan. They hate each other but not as much as they hate the US.

You, as our President decide to draw down US forces in the region. Why? Because you realize that as long as you have a heavy presence there, both will stay united against you. You pull out all but a few hundred troops sending a message that you would love to negotiate a new government but you’re not sure which group to meet with. Sure enough, with you gone both groups break out in all out conflict, waging war against the other for control of the country.

At this point, do you announce ISIS is an “arm of the US”? Why not if they are fighting the Taliban?

Do you announce the Taliban is an “arm of the US”? Why not, if they are fighting ISIS?

Do you announce ISIS and the Taliban are both arms of the US? Why not, if they’re both destroying the other?

And when US attacks the Taliban, does ISIS announce that America, the Great Satan, is an ‘arm of the Caliphate’? Of course not, and neither does the Taliban consider us allied when we attack ISIS.

That is the situation we have when the Wild Beast attacks the Whore of Babylon. A possible convergence of interest is totally insufficient to consider one an ‘arm’ of the other.

.
This is similar to the situation with the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon. So that's what @URAVIP2ME meant by the beast being Jehovah's arm.

There is no similarity between these two situations. Nebuchadnezzar was sent by God. The beast is the Anti-Christ or represents the Anti-Christ's kingdom. The beast is described as "full of names of blasphemies". As such it cannot be 'an arm of God' because God does not walk around with a blasphemous arm, and He certainly does not make war with the Lamb.

Do you understand?
Is this not why Jesus said, "Pay attention to how you listen." (Luke 8:18)

Yes, Jesus did say that, which is why I’m wondering how this teaching passed muster. We know Nebuchadnezzar was God’s agent because scripture tells us so, but to ascribe the Beast the same status is clearly going beyond what is written. We know the Beast has blasphemies written all over it, so I’m finding it extraordinarily it as an “arm of God”.

What is similar are the visions and how the kingdoms of man are envisioned. Nebuchadnezzar has the vision and sees man's kingdoms as "an enormous, dazzling statue, in appearance." whereas Daniel and John see them as horrible or loathsome beasts.