Peace & Security or Sudden Destruction?

[Oeste]

That is not exactly true in every case. Matthew 10:6-15, "go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,.. preach the kingdom of heaven is at hand...heal the sick, raise the dead. do not acquire gold, or silver,.. or a bag for your journey, or even two tunics, or sandals,.... inquire who is worthy... abide there".

To be clear, I am referring to early Christians who would not have paper or papyrus to hand out to homeowners “door to door” as shown in the WT illustration (I modified the illustration to show a Watchtower “trademark” in response to nPeace’s assertion that only JW’s preach the word properly).

Plus, when you carry the false message of the false gospel of grace, the weight might be too much to even save the walking dead.

Anyone who thinks they have or can earn the Kingdom of God based on their own merit is suffering from a spiritual vanity and has surely earned the right to sit near the head of the table:

The Parable of the Wedding Feast

7 Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, 8 “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, 9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 14)​

Or perhaps the right to pray alongside the Pharisees:

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18)​

 

[2ndpillar]

To be clear, I am referring to early Christians who would not have paper or papyrus to hand out to homeowners “door to door” as shown in the WT illustration (I modified the illustration to show a Watchtower “trademark” in response to nPeace’s assertion that only JW’s preach the word properly).



Anyone who thinks they have or can earn the Kingdom of God based on their own merit is suffering from a spiritual vanity and has surely earned the right to sit near the head of the table:

The Parable of the Wedding Feast

7 Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, 8 “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, 9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 14)​

Or perhaps the right to pray alongside the Pharisees:

The Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18)​

Yet it is the righteous, the "wheat", who will be "gathered into the barn", and "those who commit lawlessness" who will be gathered and thrown into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:30) &I (Matthew 13:39-42) & (Matthew 7:23) & (Matthew 13:49). As for the Pharisees and the scribes, like Paul, apparently, they can confess their sins, and repent, and get baptized, but if they don't produce good fruit, they will be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10).


New American Standard Bible Matthew 13:41
"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

New American Standard Bible Matthew 13:49
"So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

 

[2ndpillar]

Anyone who thinks they have or can earn the Kingdom of God based on their own merit is suffering from a spiritual vanity and has surely earned the right to sit near the head of the table:

Apparently, one must be more righteous than the Pharisees to enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:20), which by the way is "at hand". Which is not to say the righteous are more humble than the uppity Pharisees and those who consider themselves wise and intelligent (Matthew 11:25), but the latter seem full of themselves.

 

[nPeace]

And yet there are over one billion Christians worldwide. Is this because Christians simply refused to go around knocking on doors, or is it through the activity of the Spirit?

I can't imagine Christians knocking on doors carrying expensive papyrus or paper that they would leave with homeowners.

My conclusion is that it a work of the Spirit.

Today Christian is just a word, isn't it? It can easily pass across anyone's lips.
As far as I know, a Christian is one who follows Jesus' example and teachings. This is what I am describing.
You seem to be talking about something else.
Jesus is the one who set the example, and gave the instructions, It is written.
You are free to determine what you consider to be following Christ. JWs to my mind, are the ones I see, demonstrating that they are true followers of Christ - no need for me to repeat how.
Some... actually many, have tried to do what they do, and failed. Their pastors have encouraged their members, but realized it was like trying to flock goats. The few that started out, soon diminished to zero.
NINE THINGS THAT HAVE REPLACED TRADITIONAL OUTREACH IN CHURCHES

So you are right in one thing... it is by spirit - God's spirit.
Did first century Christians carry scrolls? It seems likely, but I wasn't there.
I wasn't there when Jesus called the religious leaders hypocrites, and called their worship vain, but I can certainly conclude that it is likely, he wasn't smiling when he did so.

Only after Christians have already been there and never door to door during persecution. In fact, you consider it unreasonable to go door to door where persecution exists. How many JW’s go "door to door" in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Syria? How many of your pioneers have lined up to sneak across the North Korean border to preach "door to door" because "the need is great"? How many are in the mountains of Afghanistan, going "door to door"?

It seems to me that "door to door" is more of a perceived bragging right for the WT than the mark of a Christian. If "door to door" were as important as you now claim it is, I would expect to see reports of thousands, if not tens of thousands of JW's in prison or being held hostage by terrorists in hostile lands. Instead, the current number of Witnesses imprisoned, tortured, or killed due to their faith are proportionately much lower than that of Christianity. Sources: 1 2 3

I"m not saying this to diminish anyone's suffering here, but I am saying is that this should not be brandished as some sort of marketing tool or one-upmanship at the expense of fellow Christians.

This one amused me, for two reasons. However, sometimes it's best to leave those in the dark, right where they are... in the dark.

Going door to door is a great way to recognize JW’s, census workers, mail carriers and salesmen. The bible never mentions it as a way to recognize Christians.

What the bible does say is that Christians went from house to house....a reference to the "church houses" of the early church, much like we see in the persecuted churches of China.

​

Source:
By Huang Jinhui - Own work, CC BY-SA 4.0,
File:People singing chant.JPG - Wikimedia Commons


I agree it is a trademark of JW’s (where it is convenient and safe). It's not a "trademark" of Christians and not an “example” that Jesus set. It's more the minimum activity members are expected to engage in if they wish to retain/obtain honor and/or privileges within the Watchtower Organization.

The idea that Jesus commanded his followers to spread as “truth” a message that isn't quite true by knocking on doors is not a "mark of true Christianity". Ditto for any failure to apologize and repent.

Not outdated, just unscriptural. We were commanded to preach, not to knock on doors of the already converted. We were commanded to announce that the kingdom of God was at hand, not to speculate on dates.

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:17)​

You'll notice there is nothing about "door to door" here. Nothing about field service hours and certainly nothing about boasting.

From what I read and studied in the scriptures, a mark of true Christianity, is seen from Jesus activity, and the activity of his followers - from the four Gospels to the letters of his disciples.
Jesus method and message had not changed. The message was the good news of the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said God's word is truth. That was not the message.

The method involved taking it personally to every nation, people, and tongue. The primary method was always door to door... if there was a door.
That's just one mark, out of the others I mentioned. United in love, as a worldwide brotherhood, is another, as well as united in teaching... in every land in which they dwelt.

Jesus methods of reaching people with the message of the Kingdom of God, were abandoned, by the apostate "Christians" who rose up during the late first century.
They replaced both the method and message, with a clergy-laity class, lording it over the flock, with honorary titles and robes.
It seems evident to me, that JWs were organized to restore Jesus methods and message, and it has proved effective in reaching millions. They follow Christ's example - Luke 8:1 . . .Shortly afterward he traveled from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God. And the Twelve were with him,

 

[nPeace]

Hasn't your Organization held your hand, as it leads you, ever more apostate, from it's earlier teachings??? Why would you constantly look for a plank in my eye when you have one in your own? Yours is the only Organization I know where today's "truth" is tomorrow's heresy.

Not all falsehood dies on the soil. Some "sprinkles" take root and flourish. So it doesn't matter how old the sprinkles are, it matters how untrue the sprinkles were. And if your Organization hasn't been true with "small" things, why should we conclude they'll be true with the large? Do you have scripture to support such an outrageous allegation?

But I’m not looking for a "Sorry" from you, I’m looking for a "Sorry" from your Organization. Your organization has placed words in the mouth of the Almighty that God never spoke, the classic trademark not of "humble men" but of false prophets, and until it apologizes and repents it will remain in its sin.

"My" plank must be quite huge, because I can't see the straws you seem to be catching at, to create your strawman.
I'll say this though. Jehovah knows who belong to him.
Just look back in the scriptures, and you will see that... I'll just mention two, out of the many...
Moses -
Numbers 12:1-3, 8
1 Now Mirʹi·am and Aaron began to speak against Moses because of the Cu****e wife he had married, for he had taken a Cu****e wife. 2 They were saying: “Is it only by Moses that Jehovah has spoken? Has he not also spoken through us?” And Jehovah was listening. 3 Now the man Moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth.
8 ...Why, then, did you not fear to speak against my servant, against Moses?

Numbers 14:1-4
1 Then all the assembly raised their voice, and the people continued crying out and weeping all through that night. 2 All the Israelites began to murmur against Moses and Aaron, and the whole assembly spoke against them, saying: “If only we had died in the land of Egypt, or if only we had died in this wilderness! 3 Why is Jehovah bringing us to this land to fall by the sword? Our wives and children will become plunder. Is it not better for us to return to Egypt?” 4 They were even saying to one another: “Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt!”

Numbers 16:1-3
1 Then Korʹah the son of Izʹhar, the son of Koʹhath, the son of Leʹvi, got up together with Daʹthan and A·biʹram the sons of E·liʹab, and On the son of Peʹleth, of the sons of Reuʹben. 2 They rose up against Moses along with 250 Israelite men, chieftains of the assembly, chosen ones of the congregation, prominent men. 3 So they gathered together against Moses and Aaron and said to them: “We have had enough of you! The whole assembly is holy, all of them, and Jehovah is in their midst. Why, then, should you exalt yourselves above the congregation of Jehovah?”

David -
2 Samuel 24:10
10 But David’s heart was struck with remorse after he had numbered the people. David then said to Jehovah: “I have sinned greatly by doing this. And now, Jehovah, please forgive your servant’s error, for I have acted very foolishly.”
2 Samuel 11, 12

I find it interesting that Jehovah always used imperfect men, who made mistakes, and didn't always get things right, but were willing to admit, and correct their mistakes. Don't you find that really interesting?

The thing is, while there were those who chose to dwell and focus on those mistakes, and stay stuck on them - in this... case a century ago., how did those individuals fare?
In other words, how did Jehovah view them? Meanwhile, how did he view those who humbly submitted to being used by Jehovah, as a light to the nations... despite their mistakes?

Of David, Jehovah said, (Acts 13:22) . . .‘I have found David the son of Jesse a man agreeable to my heart; . . ."
Of Moses, it is said, (Numbers 12:3) . . .the man Moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth. . .
What is he saying about his servants today, who are not perfect, but make mistakes?

I have found that when it comes down to the "nitty gritty", it is about whether we really believe the Bible or not, and are willing to follow what scripture teaches, rather than traditions, or "theology". I have found that many who profess they do, really don't. They call themselves Christian, but they demonstrate that they really are not (I'm not referring to you Oeste).
However, I believe we should, if we truly believe the Bible, accept everything it says, and not treat it as some trash book, to be buried, or burned, against our own "wisdom" - which really, to me gives evidence of being utter foolishness. For example, JWs don't find the Bible contradicts itself, nor do they attack it, and treat it with such contempt as some who call themselves Christians do (not referring to you Oeste)... but I believe some on these forums pose as what they are not.
From my observations, JWs are willing to follow what the Bible says. When they are wrong, they admit it, and move on. We all have the Bible, where we can check those beliefs against the Bible.
You can check the WT for a scriptural explanation on any adjustments made.
If one believes they are wrong, then by all means, stay away.

I've given you a few opportunities to scripturally challenge those... not the ancient beliefs.
I've given you my reasons for why JWs prove to be true followers of Christ.
If you see different, then you have your reasons for believing them to be false prophets.
How can I fault you for that? That's Jehovah's job.

 

[nPeace]

Apparently, one must be more righteous than the Pharisees to enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:20), which by the way is "at hand". Which is not to say the righteous are more humble than the uppity Pharisees and those who consider themselves wise and intelligent (Matthew 11:25), but the latter seem full of themselves.

That's a good point. Among the righteous, there will exist some very humble, humble, not so humble, but they work at being Christ-like. The point is, they are righteous, because God considers them righteous, unlike the Pharisees.

 

[2ndpillar]

That's a good point. Among the righteous, there will exist some very humble, humble, not so humble, but they work at being Christ-like. The point is, they are righteous, because God considers them righteous, unlike the Pharisees.

The righteous, are more righteous than the Pharisees (Matthew 5:20). They make no oath, do not divorce their wife except for the cause of unchastity, do not call his brother "raca", or fool, reconciles with his brother before coming to God, looks not at a woman with lust, turns one's cheek, and pray for those who persecute you, and do not turn away those that ask. (Matthew 5) In this manner they enter the kingdom of heaven, and produce good fruit. They are righteous because they heed the "Word of God", they do not nail it to a cross. (Matthew 7:24-27). The "tares" consider themselves righteous, but in the end, they find their way into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:39-42). They "stumble" and they "commit lawlessness" (Matthew 13:41).
The righteous have reason to be humble, for as one tries to do to them, so happens to the perpetrator. Their angel stands before the LORD.

 

[Oeste]

Apparently, one must be more righteous than the Pharisees to enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:20), which by the way is "at hand". Which is not to say the righteous are more humble than the uppity Pharisees and those who consider themselves wise and intelligent (Matthew 11:25), but the latter seem full of themselves.

That's a good point. Among the righteous, there will exist some very humble, humble, not so humble, but they work at being Christ-like. The point is, they are righteous, because God considers them righteous, unlike the Pharisees.

Indeed, the righteous are in fact more humble but it is the self-righteous who grab the platform with the Pharisee.

It will be as Jesus said:

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." (Matthew 6:5)​

Those who promote themselves as "righteous" based on their works, status, class or membership within a particular organization are receiving their reward in full now... just like the Pharisee...through the acclaim and adoration of men. Those waiting to have their righteousness proclaimed through the work of Christ receive their reward later.

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.

And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through works doctrines him! (Romans 5: 1-9)​

Christ did not die for the righteous because there was no one righteous but him (Psalm 14:3). So anyone considering themselves righteous through their works has no need of Christ...they can simply present their works before God and save themselves. In other words, if you were ungodly then Christ died for you. All others need not be concerned.

The quote from Romans 5:1-9 is mostly for @nPeace as I believe @2ndpillar mentioned he rejects Paul outright.

The fact is, we all fall short of the glory of God and we cannot save ourselves. This is a very hard pill for many Christians to swallow, especially those who enjoy the thrill of exaltation...the "Look how wretched you are compared to us" Christians that oft times comes with a smug smile and a constant flurry of self-aggrandizement, praise and imagined achievements. It was no different for many Jews, who considered themselves holier before God than the Gentiles (Romans 3:9, Proverbs 20:9).

So what does this mean? That good works are worthless? No...good works are the manifestation of the Spirit that called us (Ephesians 1:18-20) They are the spiritual rewards we receive now which will be paid back to us many times over in the Kingdom to come, but these works are not works we claim by ourselves, for ourselves, to glorify ourselves, but by Christ, for Christ, to glorify Christ.

Salvation come through Christ and reward comes through works but it is only the works of the Spirit that can withstand the fire. (Matthew 24:5)

 

[Oeste]

Today Christian is just a word, isn't it? It can easily pass across anyone's lips.
As far as I know, a Christian is one who follows Jesus' example and teachings. This is what I am describing.
You seem to be talking about something else.

Correct! I wasn't talking about Jesus' example and teachings, but about false prophets.

Jesus is the one who set the example, and gave the instructions, It is written.
You are free to determine what you consider to be following Christ. JWs to my mind, are the ones I see, demonstrating that they are true followers of Christ - no need for me to repeat how.

I think you see "Only we follow Christ" and constant comparisons with the church across the street as some sort of spiritual strength. I see it as a spiritual sickness.

Some... actually many, have tried to do what they do, and failed. Their pastors have encouraged their members, but realized it was like trying to flock goats. The few that started out, soon diminished to zero.
NINE THINGS THAT HAVE REPLACED TRADITIONAL OUTREACH IN CHURCHES

Times change. What works, works.

So you are right in one thing... it is by spirit - God's spirit.

Agreed.

Did first century Christians carry scrolls? It seems likely, but I wasn't there.
I wasn't there when Jesus called the religious leaders hypocrites, and called their worship vain, but I can certainly conclude that it is likely, he wasn't smiling when he did so.

Distributing scrolls would be like distributing Watchtower's on I-Pads. Many would accept the scroll, but it wouldn't be for the message inside.

Besides, the message is being carried to the Gentiles where literacy rates were not high.

From what I read and studied in the scriptures, a mark of true Christianity, is seen from Jesus activity, and the activity of his followers - from the four Gospels to the letters of his disciples.

Agreed.

Jesus said God's word is truth. That was not the message.

Then we profoundly disagree. Scripture is God's "message" to mankind. We cannot separate one scripture and say "this is the message" and point to another and say "this is not". But your response certainly gives me a lot of insight as to why JW's believe "the truth" (as they call it) need not be true.

Jesus method and message had not changed. The message was the good news of the Kingdom of God.

If "God's word is truth" is not part of the "good news of the Kingdom of God" message then the entire message is useless. There would be nothing to prevent the "good news" from becoming "no news" or even "bad news", much like the WT's back and forth message on Sodom and Gomorrah.

That's just one mark, out of the others I mentioned. United in love, as a worldwide brotherhood, is another, as well as united in teaching... in every land in which they dwelt.

Every supremacist group is "united in love" but it is a self-love with little, if any love. spared for others. They have worldwide brotherhoods and they are united in teaching...in every land they dwell. They actively recruit utilizing every method at their disposal, and they magnify the fault of others but have little eye to fault themselves.

I do not consider such things a "mark" of Christians.

They replaced both the method and message, with a clergy-laity class, lording it over the flock, with honorary titles and robes.

Shame on Christianity! Had they just called their clergy laity class the "Governing Board" allowing them to "lord it over the flock" by giving credence and reverence to their every utterance, providing honorary titles like "Elder", "Ministerial Servant" and "Circuit Overseer", and replaced their robes with a fine suit, tie and polished shoes there would be no problem!!

But even with that they would still not match the Watchtower, which claims they have no clergy-laity in the congregations, but claim clergy-penitent privilege in the courts. While such double speak makes no sense to most of us, it's all part and parcel of "the truth™" for Witnesses.

 

[2ndpillar]

Salvation come through Christ and reward comes through works but it is only the works of the Spirit that can withstand the fire. (Matthew 24:5)

And while Matthew 24:5 apparently describes how you acquired you state of mind, it does not address works. The non "works" around the quote in John 3:15 is clarified by John 3:21, in that one must practice the truth, that his "deeds might come to light". It is about doing, not believing. The demons believe, yet they will "shudder" (James 2:19 -20)

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

James 2:18-20 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder. 20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

 

[2ndpillar]

Christ did not die for the righteous because there was no one righteous but him (Psalm 14:3). So anyone considering themselves righteous through their works has no need of Christ...they can simply present their works before God and save themselves. In other words, if you were ungodly then Christ died for you. All others need not be concerned.

Psalm 14:3-4 3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. 4 Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the LORD.

It is not that there are not righteous people, for clearly Yeshua points out that there are the righteous, such as from Abel to Zechariah. Example Matthew 23:25. It is just that those that "devour my people", such as Pharisees and scribes (Matthew 23:23), and "the shepherds of Israel", leaders, such as goats and rams (Ezekiel 34:1-3 & 17), but that evil doers will be held accountable (Ezekiel 34:16-17) & (Matthew 23:35). It is those who consider themselves wise and intelligent, as well as leaders/goats, especially those put in their place by the false prophet Paul, who also have to shudder (Matthew 11:25). For those who eat the flesh of the sheep, and become "fat", "I will destroy" (Ezekiel 34:16) and "feed with judgment". One follows the "broad" "way" (Matthew 7:13) of the "false prophets" (Matthew 7:15) at their own risk. You will know them (false prophets), by their bad fruit/works from their tree. (Matthew 7:20). Or in the case of "many" of the followers of Paul, no good works, which means they will be "cut down" and thrown "into the fire" (Matthew 3:10).

 

[2ndpillar]

The quote from Romans 5:1-9 is mostly for @nPeace as I believe @2ndpillar mentioned he rejects Paul outright.

You have me all wrong. The LORD chose Paul, the staff/shepherd "Favor" to "pasture" his "flock doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7-10), the Gentile church, the "adulteress" of Hosea 3 . Paul and his friends, Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13), and Peter (Zechariah 11:16-17), all have a role to fill. Without darkness, how would the evildoers have a place to turn to. First comes darkness, and then light, but the "many" chose darkness over light.

 

[Oeste]

"My" plank must be quite huge, because I can't see the straws you seem to be catching at, to create your strawman.

I don’t understand how you can say your leaders are fallible in one sentence yet have no plank in the other. We all have planks, but the WT’s “truth” that our Creator promised to usher in the “New System” before the 1914 generation passed away was is not a strawman. For decades it was “the truth”.

"I'll say this though. Jehovah knows who belong to him.

Agreed.

Just look back in the scriptures, and you will see that... I'll just mention two, out of the many...

Moses -
...
David -

I find it interesting that Jehovah always used imperfect men, who made mistakes, and didn't always get things right, but were willing to admit, and correct their mistakes. Don't you find that really interesting?

I sure do…especially since we are all imperfect! Now please…show us where the Governing Board apologized and repented for their past mistakes.

The thing is, while there were those who chose to dwell and focus on those mistakes, and stay stuck on them - in this... case a century ago, how did those individuals fare?

Are you referring to how some religions focus and get stuck on mistakes of other religious leaders, like the Pope, or to your own, like the Governing Board, and will we use the same measuring rod to judge other leaders as we judge our own?

In other words, how did Jehovah view them? Meanwhile, how did he view those who humbly submitted to being used by Jehovah, as a light to the nations... despite their mistakes?

Of Moses, it is said, (Numbers 12:3) . . .the man Moses was by far the meekest of all the men on the face of the earth. . .
What is he saying about his servants today, who are not perfect, but make mistakes?

Well let’s take a look at Moses first because he’s an interesting one for you to bring up:

Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the tent of meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the LORD appeared to them. The LORD said to Moses,

“Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.”

So Moses took the staff from the LORD’s presence, just as he commanded him.

He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”​

Obviously Moses’ meekness did not mean he could ignore the Word of God by adding his own embellishments. Jehovah did not say “Oh, I forgot you were fallible and imperfect”. Since Moses lost the right to lead his people to the Promised Land with this grave sin it's certainly reasonable for others to suspect your Governing Board has lost the same.

Of David, Jehovah said, (Acts 13:22) . . .‘I have found David the son of Jesse a man agreeable to my heart; . . ."
What is he saying about his servants today, who are not perfect, but make mistakes?

This one is much easier:

“David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die’” (2 Sam. 12:13).

You also alluded to how Jehovah viewed David when you cited 2 Samuel 24:10:

10 But David’s heart was struck with remorse after he had numbered the people. David then said to Jehovah: “I have sinned greatly by doing this. And now, Jehovah, please forgive your servant’s error, for I have acted very foolishly.”​

Now please…tell us where your Governing Board confessed their sin against the Lord, so that we will know the Lord has put away their sin.

I have found that when it comes down to the "nitty gritty", it is about whether we really believe the Bible or not, and are willing to follow what scripture teaches, rather than traditions, or "theology".

In the above examples of Moses and David, the “nitty gritty” came down to whether the prophets recognized their error, confessed it, apologized and repented. Once this is done the sin is delayed or the punishment is forgotten. However, when they refuse to apologize and repent, the sin is remembered, regardless of whether it’s a day, a week, a month or a hundred years.

I have found that many who profess they do, really don't. They call themselves Christian, but they demonstrate that they really are not (I'm not referring to you Oeste).

Thank you! And as I explained to you earlier, I do not “hate” on Jehovah Witnesses. I simply disagree with many of their teachings. Personally I believe the vast majority of them love the Lord, but it is truly unfortunate that they’re not allowed to acknowledge other groups or even former members that do the same.

However, I believe we should, if we truly believe the Bible, accept everything it says, and not treat it as some trash book, to be buried, or burned, against our own "wisdom" - which really, to me gives evidence of being utter foolishness. For example, JWs don't find the Bible contradicts itself, nor do they attack it, and treat it with such contempt as some who call themselves Christians do (not referring to you Oeste)... but I believe some on these forums pose as what they are not.

When the skeptics and atheists come (and they are all over this Board) I fully enjoy the contributions JW’s make in defending the bible. I may not always agree with what they say, but when it comes to the bible being the word of God we are definitely on the same page. I see no way to find fault with this. It is simply what we are called to do…to fight the good fight to the glory of God.

From my observations, JWs are willing to follow what the Bible says. When they are wrong, they admit it, and move on. We all have the Bible, where we can check those beliefs against the Bible.

Yes, JW’s become remorseful, they apologize, and they repent. I just do not see this with your Governing Board. From my perspective your Governing Board requires Witnesses to engage in Godly spiritual activities they consider themselves to "humble" to engage in. It is the definition of hubris.

You can check the WT for a scriptural explanation on any adjustments made.

If one believes they are wrong, then by all means, stay away.

You know I cannot stay away. JW’s believe “Christendom” is wrong, but do they stay away? So I cannot follow advice that you yourself would not follow. We are all called to “…be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have…” (1 Peter 3:15)

I've given you a few opportunities to scripturally challenge those... not the ancient beliefs.

God willing, we’ll have plenty of opportunities to scripturally challenge Watchtower beliefs on this forum. But I also realize that the vast majority of WT truth is subject to change, from one publication to the next, from one Assembly to the other, as they make continued “adjustments” to the word of God. What you believe now is not what you will believe later and it’s quite possible there may be no need to challenge anything if we simply wait long enough.

As for “ancient” the sin remains until they apologize to the Lord and repent. God waited 300 years to punish the non-repentant Amalekites who must also have considered their sin “ancient”.

I've given you my reasons for why JWs prove to be true followers of Christ.

Then you have complied with 1 Peter 3:15. You have done it respectfully and with aplomb. It’s all anyone on the forum could ask.

If you see different, then you have your reasons for believing them to be false prophets.

How can I fault you for that? That's Jehovah's job.

Agreed! I cannot convince or convict you of anything…that is the job of the Spirit.

I want to thank you for an extremely enjoyable, lively and educational discussion @nPeace. It has been a pleasure. Perhaps one day we shall meet when we both no longer see in shadow but in full truth (1 Corinthians 13:12).

We can then relax, share a good drink and a laugh.

 

[Oeste]

You have me all wrong.

I certainly did!

The LORD chose Paul, the staff/shepherd "Favor" to "pasture" his "flock doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7-10), the Gentile church, the "adulteress" of Hosea 3 . Paul and his friends, Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13), and Peter (Zechariah 11:16-17), all have a role to fill. Without darkness, how would the evildoers have a place to turn to. First comes darkness, and then light, but the "many" chose darkness over light.

Wow! I thought you were simply throwing Paul out with the bath water, like many are wont to do with scripture, but you believe Paul was chosen by God to be a false prophet. Are you asserting Peter was a false prophet too?

 

[12jtartar]

Nope, no theocracy for me.

Woberts,
You mean you are throwing away everlasting life, in a paradise earth, without even getting to know the best Father anyone could have, The Almighty God, Jehovah, who wants the best for everyone, and is able to do all He wants to do.

 

[12jtartar]

So this thread is basically a Watchtower Society tract? It's not enough that you Witnesses go door-to-door to hand these things out, you have to preach your doom and gloom wherever you can, eh?

Jose Fly,
The preaching work is a command of Jesus, just before he went back to heaven, Matthew 28:19,20.
This preaching work is definitely not a doom and gloom message. This message is the way to gain everlasting life in a paradise earth. You see, the big problem is; you must love God with all your soul, and you must love your neighbor as yourself, Matthew 22:35-40.
Even though no one is under The Mosaic Law Covenant, this Law is what is called an Eternity’s, meaning that these laws will always be in effect, no matter the Covenant of God.
By the preaching work, a person can save himself and the person who listens to him, 1Timothy 4:16, 2Timothy 2:2, 24-26.
We must help others to come to a knowledge of the truth, in order to help them understand that many people are teaching false doctrines, 2Timothy 4:1-5, 2Peter 2:1-5, Matthew 24:14..
In worship, God only accepts worship in truth, John 4:23,24.
If a person wants to live forever, in paradise, he must learn about God, and follow Jesus, and this, before Jesus returns to earth, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10. Agape!!!

 

[Oeste]

Salvation come through Christ and reward comes through works but it is only the works of the Spirit that can withstand the fire. (Matthew 24:5)

And while Matthew 24:5 apparently describes how you acquired you state of mind, it does not address works.

Lol, you are too funny 2ndpillar! But that's what I get for trying to recall verses from memory.

The non "works" around the quote in John 3:15 is clarified by John 3:21, in that one must practice the truth, that his "deeds might come to light". It is about doing, not believing. The demons believe, yet they will "shudder" (James 2:19 -20)

Doing is about reward. Believing is about salvation. The verse “Your works will save you” or “Without works, no one is saved” simply doesn’t exist in scripture. All the work for salvation was done on the cross, and we cannot “add” our own works to the already completed work of Christ.

James 2:18-20 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder. 20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?​

​

I sometimes forget how hard it can be for "works based" believers to harmonize the word of God.

We cannot ignore whom James is talking to and what he was talking about in order to arrive at your aberrant understanding that we are saved by our works. There are people who knock on my door once or twice a year, ready to assign me work from the Watchtower, and I’m sure we have folk trolling websites, ready to assign a “work” to the spiritually naïve so they might “save themselves”…as if Christ hadn’t done that already!

James is talking to believers, those who were already converted. He’s telling those who believe that if they have the faith they claim, but that faith has not produce a changed life, then the faith within them is dead. It produces no reward for them or for others. In other words, those who are actually saved can expect to produce good works by the Spirit within them.

It’s rather easy to see the role of faith and works in the Christian life with a simple reading of 1 Corinthians 3:

13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

So what gets tested by fire? Is it our life, forfeited by a lack of works? No…it is the work itself and not the Christian that gets tossed into the fire.

Paul and his friends, Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13), and Peter (Zechariah 11:16-17), all have a role to fill. Without darkness, how would the evildoers have a place to turn to. First comes darkness, and then light, but the "many" chose darkness over light.

The foolish shepherd chosen by the people was partially fulfilled in the choice of Barabbas over Jesus (John 5:43) and will have its eventual fulfillment in the anti-Christ. Any work that claims Paul and/or Peter as false apostles raised by God is simply heresy or another work to be consumed by the fire.

Paul actually commands us to do good works, but nowhere, not even in James, does it ever say good works will save your life (Ephesians 2)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.​

In other words, our salvation is not an act of service, choices, intelligence, knowledge, or personal abilities, but of Christ. Our righteous acts do not produce salvation but are, in fact, evidence of our salvation (James 1:22; James 2:14–26

In short: "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit..." (Titus 3:5)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So Peace and Security it appears, will be a reality, but not by man.
That's the way I see it. What are your thoughts?

That's a rather pessimistic view as for most of the world the chances of us being killed in a violent death have never been lower at any other point in history and it keeps getting lower. Europe has been nearly a century without any major internal wars. Sure there is violence in the Middle East and parts of Africa, but for most people in most other places we're just not being killed off in violence or war like we used to and instead we're consistently living long enough to die from complications of aging, and we're creating a concern for states who are having to manage aging populations like never before.

 

[2ndpillar]

Doing is about reward. Believing is about salvation. The verse “Your works will save you” or “Without works, no one is saved” simply doesn’t exist in scripture. All the work for salvation was done on the cross, and we cannot “add” our own works to the already completed work of Christ.

Well, that is a good summation of Paul's false gospel of grace/cross, but the "Word of God", the "Spirit of Revelation", the "Word" made flesh, begs to differ.

Jeremiah 31:30, "everyone will die for their own iniquity". You and Paul seem to hang on to the message of the serpent, which is, break God's commandments, and you "surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:4). The demons "believe", yet they have reason to "shudder".

 

[2ndpillar]

The foolish shepherd chosen by the people was partially fulfilled in the choice of Barabbas over Jesus (John 5:43) and will have its eventual fulfillment in the anti-Christ. Any work that claims Paul and/or Peter as false apostles raised by God is simply heresy or another work to be consumed by the fire.

The "foolish shepherd" of Zechariah 11:14-17, is the 2nd staff, 'Cords", taken by the LORD to "pasture the flock doomed for slaughter, and he would not feed, care, or tend the sheep (John 21:15-16), and would indeed "leave the flock" (Acts 15:7). Peter's shameful vision is what further broke the union between Judah and Israel (Zechariah 13:4) & (Zechariah 11:14). Barabbas, the supposed insurrectionists, from the tale, was neither a shepherd, nor an anti-Christ, more like an anti-Rome kind of guy. The coming "fire" or "furnace of fire", such as baptism by fire, is to "refine" those who actually survive the fire (Zechariah 13:8-9). You see, those who commit lawlessness will be thrown into the furnace of fire, not those who promote righteousness (Matthew 13:39-42). Peter would be the reference to "stumbling blocks" such as when Yeshua called Peter, "Satan! you are a stumbling block to me".(Matthew 16:23).