Peace & Security or Sudden Destruction?

[sooda]

The new Christians took a Jewish idea such as “Son of God”, which within ancient Judaism made reference to the children of Israel as a whole (sons of God), and re-interpreted it .

Remembering that Jesus was a Jew should give you pause.

 

[2ndpillar]

That's not what Rev 13:8 says

I didn't list just Revelation 13:8, I listed it together with Revelation 13:14. The "beast with two horns like a lamb was to "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" to worship the "beast" referred to in Revelation 13:8, by making an image to the "beast". Anyone not written in the "book of life" from the foundation of the world will worship the "beast", who had the wound of the sword, and is the god emperor Julius Caesar, and not your maligned little Nero. Caesar's demon spirit will wield power as the 8th head of the beast by way of the 10 horns of the 8th head. (Revelation 17:11). The story is on going and by no means over.

Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast-all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

 

[2ndpillar]

The new Christians took a Jewish idea such as “Son of God”, which within ancient Judaism made reference to the children of Israel as a whole (sons of God), and re-interpreted it

The sons of God, were defined in Job 1:6 as angels, such as heavenly watchers. The sons of God, do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), and have an angel before God. (Matthew 18:10) As for as the "first born son of God", that would be Ephraim.(Jeremiah 31:9)

New American Standard Bible Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

New International Version Job 1:6
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

New American Standard Bible Matthew 18:10
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

https://biblehub.com/matthew/12-50.htm
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Jeremiah 31:9 says, "...For I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

Exodus 13:11 “The Lord will bring you to the land of the Canaanite. He will give it to you as He promised you and your fathers. 12 There you must give to the Lord the first male to be born. And all the first male animals born belong to the Lord. 13 But you may buy every first-born donkey by giving a lamb for it. But if you do not buy it, then you must break its neck. You must buy with a gift of money every first-born male among your sons. 14 And when the time comes when your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ then say to him, ‘With a powerful hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt, from the land where we were servants. 15 When Pharaoh would not let us go, the Lord killed every first-born in the land of Egypt, both the first-born of man and of animal. So I give to the Lord every first male animal to be born. But I buy with a gift of money every first-born of my sons.’ 16 So it will be like a special mark on your hand and on your forehead. For the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a powerful hand.”

 

[sooda]

The sons of God, were defined in Job 1:6 as angels, such as heavenly watchers. The sons of God, do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), and have an angel before God. (Matthew 18:10) As for as the "first born son of God", that would be Ephraim.(Jeremiah 31:9)

New American Standard Bible Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

New International Version Job 1:6
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

New American Standard Bible Matthew 18:10
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

https://biblehub.com/matthew/12-50.htm
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Jeremiah 31:9 says, "...For I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

Exodus 13:11 “The Lord will bring you to the land of the Canaanite. He will give it to you as He promised you and your fathers. 12 There you must give to the Lord the first male to be born. And all the first male animals born belong to the Lord. 13 But you may buy every first-born donkey by giving a lamb for it. But if you do not buy it, then you must break its neck. You must buy with a gift of money every first-born male among your sons. 14 And when the time comes when your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ then say to him, ‘With a powerful hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt, from the land where we were servants. 15 When Pharaoh would not let us go, the Lord killed every first-born in the land of Egypt, both the first-born of man and of animal. So I give to the Lord every first male animal to be born. But I buy with a gift of money every first-born of my sons.’ 16 So it will be like a special mark on your hand and on your forehead. For the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a powerful hand.”

SON OF GOD - JewishEncyclopedia.com
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13912-son-of-god
Yet the term by no means carries the idea of physical descent from, and essential unity with, God the Father. The Hebrew idiom conveys nothing further than a simple expression of godlikeness (see Godliness). In fact, the term "son of God" is rarely used in Jewish literature in the sense of"Messiah.".



What did "son of God" mean to the Jews?

So, depending on the context, "Son of God" could point to any Jew, to a pious Jew, to a historical king, or to the future Messiah. When they are considered together, all these designations display one element in common: they are all figures of speech. No biblical or postbiblical Jewish writer ever depicted a human being literally as divine, nor did Jewish religious culture agree to accommodate the Greek notions of special men, born of women but fathered by an Olympian god (thus making them divine). The Greek designations "son of God" and "divine man", common in the terminology of ruler worship in Rome and in the description of extraordinary men in Greek Hellinism, remained taboo to Judaism. These concepts, known from classical mythology but divested of their pagan connotations, may have subconsciously played a part in John's and Paul's formulation of Jesus as God/son-of-God.

 

[Oeste]

ok, say that the GB failed to tell everyone that they are sorry for having a wrong understanding of Scripture. Exactly what has that to do with YOUR everlasting Life???

It has everything to do with life. If you prophesized falsely in the Lord’s name you got stoned to death.

This is not simply a matter of doctrinal disagreement @tartar. The WT actually claimed prophesies from God and then enlisted the aid of 8 million people to do the same in Jehovah’s Name.

Back in the Israelite days when the Nation of Israel was God’s Chosen people, many times the leaders went wrong, and God sent Prophets to warn the people. Never did God tell the people to leave the Nation of Israel!!!

This is a classic false dichotomy. The choice was never to stay or not stay in Israel. The choice has always been to follow or not follow God.

As to the prophets:

Isaiah 51:16 (GW) I put my words in your mouth and sheltered you in the palm of my hand. I stretched out the heavens, laid the foundations of the earth, and said to Zion, "You are my people."

Do you see the difference? You don’t become His people by putting your words into Jehovah’s mouth, you do it by allowing Him to put His words into yours.

(Zechariah 13;3) And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, 'You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD's name.' Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.​

The prophets own parents were charged with stabbing the prophet who told a lie in LORD's name. I think shows just how seriously Jehovah takes a false prophesy. It's not something you can just sweep under the rug and say "Fawgetaboutit!".

God brought calamity on the leaders and any that followed their wicked ways.

Agreed! This tells us that being a Jew saved nobody, but following God did. It is no different today.

The Bible tells us that God has had His word written so that even babes can understand His word, Luke 10:21. We are all going to stand before the Judgement Seat of God, and give an account for ourselves.

As Savagewind has pointed out, this is what the bible says. It is not what the Watchtower says. There is no understanding without the Watchtower, only a descent into darkness. So the word is no longer a lamp unto our feet, but the Watchtower is.

The GB does an unbelievable amount of work to keep the Gospel of the Kingdom taught around the world.

The Gospel of the Kingdom did not include 1914, 1925, 1940 or 1975 and it certainly didn’t preach an aversion to repentance.

There is no other religion on earth, that has, anywhere near the truth, as the GB teaches.

How can you say this when half the stuff you taught in 1920 you don’t believe is truth now, virtually all the stuff you taught in 1870 is no longer true, and half the stuff you teach now will only be half true in another 50 years or so?

Even the people who supposedly serving these “truths” changed!

Remember it used to be the “slave” class? Now they’ve been demoted and only the super class, or the Governing Board, gets to server the food!

Why did it take over 150 years for the “Governing Board” to notice that the slave class wasn’t actually serving anything? When did they finally notice “Hey, it’s just us”? It make absolutely no sense, but when it was announced I’m sure everyone couldn't wait to eagerly nod heads!

But the Governing Board wasn’t through. No…they couldn’t simply demote. They had to be vindictive, openly questioning the emotional and mental capacity of any in the “slave” class bold enough to partake of the emblems in your Kingdom Halls!!

The truth of the message makes the difference, as to whether God accepts Worship, John 4:23,24.

Doesn’t your interpretation condemn anyone's worship, including those of Jehovah Witnesses, since what you taught previously may be refuted by what appears on your website today? Or will you next tell us that the truth of the message doesn’t really make a difference, as long as you thought it was true yesterday, and does this “pass” on wrong beliefs apply solely to Jehovah Witnesses or does it extend in equal measure to other churches as well?

I read the information critically, that the GB writes, and I disagree with a few things, but they are very much closer than any other Faith. Where could I go to???

Yes, that was a tough one faced by the first century Jews. Follow Jesus or stay with their friends, in a place where they were accepted and felt safe, like the Temple…but then we all know what happened to the Temple.

Maybe, before Jesus returns they will correct some things, or maybe I am wrong.

Didn’t you just finish telling us “The truth of the message makes the difference, as to whether God accepts Worship, John 4:23,24” ?

So if Jesus came and inspected your Organization in 1919, and then gave his stamp of approval, and stated “This is the Organization whose worship is acceptable” wouldn’t it be because of “the truth of the message”??? Well it certainly wasn’t because Jesus was a respecter of persons, was it?

Yet you teach very little of 1919’s “truth”. If anything, your entire Organization has made a nose dive into apostasy since virtually everything you taught back then is no longer true today!

We will all stand before the Judgement Seat for ourselves!!!

Now that's the truth!

 

[Oeste]

Oeste,

I read your post, and I can find no reason for your statements, because the teaching about unnatural sex has always been the same.

That’s simply not true @12jtartar:

"While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken." Watchtower 1972 Jan 1 p.32.​

Is this the same “truth” you teach today?

There was never a time when Jesus was worshipped, in the WT organization. I can only assume that you want to believe what you want to believe, and have NO person, even The God Almighty Himself, to tell you what is wrong.

That’s not true either12jTartar:

"In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15​

"The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)." Salvation (J. F. Rutherford, 1939) p.151​

"Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313​

Since all it took to give Jesus worship was a WT article tall it took was another WT article to stop it.

"Should we worship Jesus?

Consequently, since the Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is not a trinitarian co-person with God the Father, but is a distinct person, the Son of God, the answer to the above question must be that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven.
Our worship is to go to Jehovah God. However, we show the proper regard for God's only-begotten Son by rendering our worship to God through and in the name of Jesus Christ. Watchtower 1954 Jan 1 p. 31​

From at least 1906 until 1953, you worshiped Jesus but this stopped in 1954.

All witnesses want all people to live, but it is completely up to you, whether you listen or do not, we will all stand before The Judgement seat, for ourselves, Romans 14:10-12.

You’re preaching to the choir. I have no doubt of this. Glad we can agree.

For a person to understand God’s word, he must become like a child, ask questions, and not make ridiculous assertions when he has just started to study, and is still a babe in the truth, still partaking of milk, like you, who has only a nodding acquaintance with The Holy Scriptures, Matthew 18:1-7.

For a group well acquainted with scripture your beliefs sure do change a lot. (Ephesians 4:14)

We are ordered to teach others, after we have learned truths of the Bible, and any that try to stumble others, sin against Jesus, 1Corinthians 8:11,12, Mark 9:41,42, Romans 1:18, 1Thessalonians 2;13-16. 2Thessalonians 2:10-13.

So why did Jehovah Witnesses start teaching before they got the truth? Shouldn’t they have waited until recently rather than risk bringing reproach upon Jehovah as His sole Witnesses on earth? Or was it more important to get any message out and call it “the truth”…whether it’s true or not? Perhaps God wanted Witnesses to preach half-truths in His Name until they got right?

I am afraid that you have allowed to befall you, just what was warned against, at Acts 13:40,41.

What am I to make of this? In this very post you adamantly tell us the WT never changed its view on unnatural sex, which isn’t true, and that they never worshiped Jesus…which also is not true. Based on these untruths, you quote Acts 13:40-41 and suggest we’ll all perish because these untruths are a work of God?

What kind of “witness” is this? If Witnesses cannot tell the truth about themselves, or even distinguish what is true in their own message, how can they tell us the truth about God? Can we eat the entire meal after they knock or do we have to be careful and choose wisely what we bite down on?

And if I sign up will I have to become equally untruthful, telling people this or that never happened when it did? The whole thing doesn’t sound scriptural and certainly not like food from Jehovah. A little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough (Galatians 5:9)

IMO, your GB needs to apologize and repent so as not to remain in their sin. I see no way to argue it, ignore it, or sweep it under the rug.

Agape!!!

Thank you, Tartar. This means a lot and shows your heart is the right place even if some of your doctrines are not. It takes time to frame responses and if there was no love in you, then you certainly wouldn’t waste time discussing issues like this on the forum.

We disagree, but as you’ve stated before, we must all love one another.

Agape!!!

 

[nPeace]

Facts and how people feel do not have to match, and often times they don't.

Or data isn't necessarily conflicting. Here is an example:
https://www.ppic.org/publication/crime-trends-in-california/

There was crime, there was an uptick in it, but over all it's down and still lower than it has been. That's much of the world. Instead of posting a bunch of links I'll post this next one:
Crime drop - Wikipedia

I'm not denying there is violence. However what I am denying is that it's getting worse. So many people throughout the world, regardless of how they feel, the reality of their situation is they know security, stability, and safety in ways their ancestors never did.

Let me just say, I think we are looking through two different windows, and I think that sometimes we choose which window we prefer to look through, simply because we prefer something that can support our opinions, our desires, hopes, dreams...

However, what is reality can be covered temporarily - either by refusing to acknowledge it, or ignoring it, but there will come a time when we will have to face reality... some day.

Perhaps the media should keep quiet, then all of us can see that crime is down.
Right. Wake up Shadow Wolf.

There was a time when being a cop was not looked upon as being worst than being in the army, and people had a measure of fear and respect for law-enforcement. Is the same true today? Is it changing for the better?

List of law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty in the United States - Wikipedia

Some complain...
I Do Not Feel Safe Around Police Officers

There was a time when people felt safe leaving their home opened, and going "just next door". Do they even feel safe leaving their door open?
Many people do not feel safe, and the level of crime has risen in many parts of the world.
However, I'm not here to convince you of anything, so what more can I say, other than what I've already said.
Corruption breeds corruption. Corruption does not remove corruption.
So...

Posting a bunch of links won't help you open your window any wider, but I am a guy that likes to see the data. It presents an open window to reality.

More US police officers die on duty than before
More Police Officers Died From Gunfire Than Traffic Incidents In 2018, Report Says
Police officer deaths on the rise in 2019 as Louisiana cop’s killer remains on the loose

Child rape increases by 18% in one year
Rape cases of children on the rise in eMbalenhle (S.Africa)
Rise in rape of minors alarming, say police
During the last 15 years, the state witnessed a whopping 532 percent increase in cases of rapes against children (India)

Spoiler: National Child Abuse Statistics

• 
  
  
  • 4.1 million child maltreatment referral reports received.1
  • Child abuse reports involved 7.5 million children.1
  • 3.2 million children received prevention & post-response services.1
  • 142,301 children received foster care services.1
  • 74.9% of victims are neglected.1
  • 18.3% of victims are physically abused.1
  • 8.6% of victims are sexually abused.1
  • 7.1% of victims are psychologically maltreated.1
  • Highest rate of child abuse in children under age one (25.3% per 1,000).1
  • Annual estimate: 1,720 children died from abuse and neglect in 2017.1,
  • Almost five children die every day from child abuse.1,2
  • Seventy-two (71.8%) percent of all child fatalities were younger than 3 years old.1
  • 80.1% of child fatalities involve at least one parent.1
  • Of the children who died, 75.4% suffered neglect.1
  • Of the children who died, 41.6% suffered physical abuseeither exclusively or in combination with another maltreatment type.1
  • 49.6% of children who die from child abuse are under one year.1
  • Boys had a higher child fatality rate than girls (2.68 boys & 2.02 girls per 100,000)1
  • Almost 65,000 children are sexually abused.1
  • More than 90% of juvenile sexual abuse victims know their perpetrator.6
  • Estimated that between 50-60% of maltreatment fatalities are not recorded on death certificates.5
  • Child abuse crosses all socioeconomic and educational levels, religions, ethnic and cultural groups.1

Who abused and neglected children?

• 
  
  
  • 83.4% (More than four-fifths) of perpetrators were between the ages of 18 and 44 years.1
  • 54.1% (More than one-half) of perpetrators were women, 45.0 % of perpetrators were men, and .09 % were of unknown sex.1

https://americanspcc.org/child-abuse-statistics/

Rise of child abuse
Child abuse continues to rise in Kentucky
Child abuse cases continue to rise in Lynchburg
Centre reports rise in child abuse cases within family

Domestic abuse offences in London rise 63% in seven years
The number of victims [of domestic abuse] in London has risen threefold in the past year
Domestic violence on the rise: 200,000 battered women, 21 murdered in 2018
Growing number of men reporting domestic violence to police, ONS figures reveal

Kosovo: robberies and violent crimes on the rise
After a robbery that ended in blood few days before New Year's Eve, the debate has resumed in Kosovo on the significant increase in violent crimes over the last few years
Gunpoint robberies rise in D.C.; those without guns decline


There will always be a point where things appear to look better than a previous point, but of course this is due to the fact that crime takes many forms, and no one plays with the same toys all the time.
However, when we take the overall picture in focus, crime is increasing worldwide.
So, I think the size of our window matters. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[nPeace]

Not only false prophecies, but they made them in Jehovah’s Name, as His Witnesses, as if Jehovah were making these claims Himself.



Yes, that has been the Watchtower's legacy.




I have no broken record of false prophesies.This is strictly one the Watchtower choreographed, produced and owns. No false prophesies, no broken record.



You’re confusing “addressed” with “ignored”. It will only be addressed when the sin is acknowledged, an apology is issued, and the Watchtower repents. That’s the message I’ve repeated “over and over” again in this thread.

Remember John 6:13:

“However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming.”​

The WT spoke with zealous impulse they claimed was from the Spirit.
.


Thank you. I believe the call to repentance is an important aspect of any Christian preaching campaign.

He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.(Luke 24: 46-48)​

Perhaps. Until then I think it wiser for me to look for a seat near the end of the table. (Luke 14:8-10)



My whole point of repeating this over and over is to show how easy it would be to defend the Watchtower if the Governing Board exhibited the same earnest repentance they demand of their members.

Can you imagine the after affect? What would anyone have to say against your Organization if they repented?

Look, Brother Aronson likes to feel important and wanted. He’s told everyone he’s of the “slave class”. Last week he was overheard telling a sister he was working on an important project from Bethel, and the week before that, how he had pioneered in Costa Rica when in fact he had simply been visiting family for the last two months.

His constant “embellishments” to known truths have come to the attention of the Judicial committee but when he’s brought he wells up, cries, confesses his sin, begs forgiveness, and promises not to engage in such behavior again.

Who would not forgive him? And once forgiven, who would constantly bring up his past sins?

That’s the whole point of repeating this stuff over and over again @nPeace. It’s not to shout "The Watchtower ‘s a false prophet!", it’s about the saving power of repentance.

The Worldwide Church of God was once like the Watchtower. They declared themselves the sole purveyors of truth today on the earth. They were the only ones whom God approved. They were the place to find "true worship".

Then they apologized and repented, and nobody has anything bad to say.



1914, 1925, 1940 were never part of the preaching message. It was never part nor parcel of the good news and it had nothing to do with the Kingdom of God. As such, why would any disciple of Jesus go door to door preaching something Jesus never asked them to preach?

At all times these "marked dates" were part of the Watchtower's message for the sole purpose of promoting itself as Jehovah's "sole" Organization, clean and undefiled, the home of "true" worship. It was an act and declaration of religious supremacy which many find appealing.



I would agree if we do not learn from the past we are doomed to repeat it. Much of "the truth" published in 1870 was considered heresy by 1920, just as much of heresies published as truth in 1920 were considered apostasies by 1970 and so on. In fact, by 1970 Witnesses mention virtually nothing taught in 1870, just like in 2019 you don't like to mention much of anything published in 1920.

I'm not sure how your Organization can reconcile this with Proverbs 23;23: "Get the truth and never sell it; also get wisdom, discipline, and good judgment."

IMO, Organizations that never seem to "Get the truth" will always "Get a change". Unlike truth, its highly salable.

As far as I know, there is a difference between claiming to prophecy, and claiming that events prophesied are likely to take place at an expected time.
There is also a difference between claiming that one is God inspired, and one is God guided.
As I said before... how many times now...? The brothers have had expectations based on mistakes in the past, but this does not - never has - disqualified anyone from being guided by God, when they seek to obey God's commands and follow Christ's example, as outlined in scripture. They have acknowledged, and admitted their mistakes.
They don't need to kneel before any man and plead mercy. So don't wait for that Oeste.
The brothers of the GB never prophesied anything. The Bible writers did.
Check one. Done. There is nothing more to say on that.
You can carry one your sermon though... if you like. Perhaps it's the only missionary service you are able to carry out.
As far as I know, it's not the will of God, I see mentioned by Jesus. Matthew 7:21-23
The GB on the other hand will continue to busy themselves with the mission that Jesus is concerned with. Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20

There is no need or reason for the GB to hold back from speaking what is apparently evident. What religious organization on earth - unified in teaching (1 Corinthians 1:10) - carries the message of the Good news of God's Kingdom to all the nations, to every village, town, and city?
I put this to you before, but you don't seem interested in that. So I am giving you another opportunity. You tell me. I want to hear from you. I am listening.

Witnesses take their message door to door
The small group of people gathered in the Kingdom Hall meeting room listened as Myles Burcham told a joke he first heard on “The Tonight Show.”

“The problem with the CIA finding Osama Bin Laden is that they should have turned to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They would have found him,” Burcham said.

Burcham and his fellow Jehovah’s Witnesses chuckled. They said they have heard many similar jests, seemingly created at their expense.

But Burcham said their persistent door-to-door witnessing is really no laughing matter.
Jehovah’s Witnesses Find Osama Bin Laden

 

[savagewind]

@nPeace But, isn't the "Good News of the Kingdom" that the Jehovah's Witnesses preach about them and not about Jesus? Isn't it true that what you teach is that the only safe place to be when the World gets judged is with you guys?*

But, we know that the only safe place to be anytime is with Jesus.

So now, the JWs are proud of their work taking people away from Jesus and putting them all in the Watchtower.

Jesus taught that righteousness is by deeds to our neighbors. The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that righteousness is by what a person thinks about Jehovah.

* Matthew 24:5

 

[savagewind]

Let me just say, I think we are looking through two different windows, and I think that sometimes we choose which window we prefer to look through, simply because we prefer something that can support our opinions, our desires, hopes, dreams...

However, what is reality can be covered temporarily - either by refusing to acknowledge it, or ignoring it, but there will come a time when we will have to face reality... some day.

Perhaps the media should keep quiet, then all of us can see that crime is down.
Right. Wake up Shadow Wolf.


So, I think the size of our window matters. Wouldn't you agree?

Are you able to "walk in another's person's shoes" @nPeace ? Please, for a moment imagine that someone else is saying the about to YOU. Maybe you will see that what you are trying to make her see also applies to YOU. Matthew 7:1

Just imagine you have opened your door to a JW and before that, you considered yourself a decent law-abiding person who takes good care of your family and the people you meet and you believe in God and in Jesus. You are a hard-working soul who trusts in the saving power of Jesus Christ.



3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

You call yourself a "follower of Christ" but what is true about you is that you follow the Bible, which isn't Jesus, the Watchtower which certainly isn't God, and the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses which is not Christ.

You say that we will be judged and we already really do know that. But, it is my opinion that you do not realize that the Bible, the Watchtower and the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses cannot save you from a worse judgment because you do what you have judged wrong for us.

I don't behave in a way that I judge wrong for others. You should realize that you do.

 

[savagewind]

The Jehovah's Witnesses preach that everyone who will not abide by "what the Bible really teaches" will die a forever death.

The Bible really teaches that God is ONE, that God is love, that God is the spirit of righteousness, and that the World is judged by Jehovah God.

But their sin is much worse than the sins of the people they are trying to convince because what they teach is that God is using three things to correct the people of Earth.

The Bible; The Watchtower; and the faithful and discreet slave (the Governing Board of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses).

They believe the Bible (which was never a magic book written by God but is a book of what people wrote*) advocates itself, and they trust that the Bible supports the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses*, the brothers of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses who have been put in charge of teaching*, The Watchtower magazine*, and everyone who will declare that Jehovah is God and that Jesus is God's first angel.

*Psalms 146:3; Psalms 60:11; Psalms 108:12; Psalms 118:8-9; Isaiah 2:22; Jeremiah 17:5;

What could be funny if it wasn't so seriously sad is that they seem to believe that a person can do all that God should approve of but if he doesn't call God's Name Jehovah, he will die in his sin.

 

[savagewind]

What I mean is this @Deeje @nPeace.

You are being taught that anyone, no matter what kind of persons they are, who believes in a trinity god, will die the forever death.

But, Jehovah's Witnesses trust the trinity as they live their lives according to it.

The Bible, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Watchtower.

You have proved it on this very forum.

How many times have we read that when someone leaves the JW understanding of the Bible, the Christian congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses (The Watchtower), and their submission to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses it is because they are sinning or that they want to sin?

Jehovah's Witnesses seem to actually believe that if a person doesn't believe the Bible as they know it he or she will be judged unworthy by Jehovah God. So, this is a fact, you will be judged if you do not understand and live by what the Bible actually and really teaches.

The reason is that YOU JUDGE people who do not live by the Bible guilty.

We don't do that!

 

[savagewind]

Oh, bother!

How do I know it's a fact?

Because it is your own rule!

 

[nPeace]

That’s simply not true @12jtartar:

What's not true? This?

the teaching about unnatural sex has always been the same.

As far as I can tell, it is true.
You quoted the WT, that verifies the statement is correct.
Homosexuality is definitely condemned in the Bible as something that will prevent individuals from gaining God’s approval. (1 Cor. 6:9, 10)...
While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions...
Now, in homosexual acts the sex organs are used in an unnatural way, in a way for which they were never purposed. Two persons of the same sex are not complements of each other, as Adam and Eve were. They could never become “one flesh” in order to procreate. It might be added, in the case of human copulation with a beast, two different kinds of flesh are involved...
Watchtower 1972 Jan 1 p.32

However, the brothers understanding needed adjusting, and the admirable thing about it, in my opinion, is that they adjusted their thinking, and did so as they usually do, by reasoning on the scriptures, and trying to apply them in the light of better understanding of them.
I would say that if anyone objects to the current understanding, then they should present a reasonable scriptural argument, as to why the current understanding is wrong.
Do you think the current understanding is flawed? If so, would you like to present scripture to show why it is flawed?

You see, the thing about humility, is that one is not afraid to admit they are wrong.
The difference between the GB, and the Bible writers, is that while the Bible writers claimed to be inspired of God, the GB does not.
Yet both groups, had one thing in common - they made mistakes, and those mistake are made public. They do not deny them, and they were willing to be adjusted.
The apostles had wrong thinking. They adjusted, grew, and followed what they understood. The apostle Paul gave his opinion on occasion, and said he felt he had the Lord's backing, and he based it on God's word.1 Corinthians 7:25, 40; 2 Corinthians 8:10

What I think you are failing to see, is that this is different to following traditions, and customs, that clearly are not scriptural, and can by no means be clarified scripturally.
For example, the scriptures clearly condemn homosexuality, so what scriptural reasons can one give, for uniting homosexuals in marriage?

That is just one of many examples that highlights the difference between those who err in understanding, and are willing to adjust, when a better understanding comes to light, and those who hold on to traditions of men, even when they have no unifying scriptural support.
If you want me to give more, just let me know.

"While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken." Watchtower 1972 Jan 1 p.32.​

Is this the same “truth” you teach today?

God's word is the truth.
Our understanding of it may be flawed, but God's word remains truth.
Jesus said, "If you remain in my word, you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
The key, is to remain in the word.
If that means, knowing the truth, from the time one starts out, then I think the disciples failed, and no one can know the truth.... but that is not the case.
The revealing of truth, or the coming to know, or gaining truth, is likened to a bright light, that gets lighter and lighter. Proverbs 4:18
When I read the scriptures, no matter how many times, from time to time, I gain a new understanding of something.
That's how deep truth is, isn't it? Like sinking a bucket into a deep well of water.
Hence the apostle Paul said...
(Ephesians 4:13) . . .until we all attain to the oneness of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown man, attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ.
(Colossians 1:9, 10) 9 That is also why from the day we heard of it, we have never stopped praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension, 10 so as to walk worthily of Jehovah in order to please him fully as you go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God;

Seems to me, from scripture, coming to an accurate knowledge of truth, is an ongoing process.
However, it's not an excuse for not "bearing fruit in every good work".
What's that good work again?

That’s not true either12jTartar:

"In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15​

"The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)." Salvation (J. F. Rutherford, 1939) p.151​

"Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313​

Since all it took to give Jesus worship was a WT article tall it took was another WT article to stop it.

"Should we worship Jesus?

Consequently, since the Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is not a trinitarian co-person with God the Father, but is a distinct person, the Son of God, the answer to the above question must be that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven.
Our worship is to go to Jehovah God. However, we show the proper regard for God's only-begotten Son by rendering our worship to God through and in the name of Jesus Christ. Watchtower 1954 Jan 1 p. 31​

From at least 1906 until 1953, you worshiped Jesus but this stopped in 1954.

*** Awake 2000 April 8 pages. 26-27 - Is It Proper to Worship Jesus? ***
Worship in the Bible
First, we have to understand what Paul meant here by worship. He used the Greek word pro·sky·neʹo. Unger’s Bible Dictionary says that this word literally means to ‘kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage.’ An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, says that this word “denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man . . . or to God.” In Bible times pro·sky·neʹo often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature.

Consider the parable Jesus gave of the slave who was unable to repay a substantial sum of money to his master. A form of this Greek word appears in this parable, and in translating it the King James Version says that “the servant therefore fell down, and worshipped [form of pro·sky·neʹo] him [the king], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.” (Matthew 18:26; italics ours.) Was this man committing an idolatrous act? Not at all! He was merely expressing the kind of reverence and respect due the king, his master and superior.

Such acts of obeisance, or expressions of respect, were fairly common in the Orient of Bible times. Jacob bowed down seven times upon meeting his brother, Esau. (Genesis 33:3) Joseph’s brothers prostrated themselves, or did obeisance, before him in honor of his position at the Egyptian court. (Genesis 42:6) In this light we can better understand what happened when the astrologers found the young child Jesus, whom they recognized as “the one born king of the Jews.” As rendered in the King James Version, the account tells us that they “fell down, and worshipped [pro·sky·neʹo] him.”—Matthew 2:2, 11.

Clearly, then, the word pro·sky·neʹo, rendered “worship” in some Bible translations, is not reserved exclusively for the type of adoration due Jehovah God. It can also refer to the respect and honor shown to another person. In an effort to avoid any misunderstanding, some Bible translations render the word pro·sky·neʹo at Hebrews 1:6 as “pay him homage” (New Jerusalem Bible), “honour him” (The Complete Bible in Modern English), “bow down before him” (Twentieth Century New Testament), or “do obeisance to him” (New World Translation).

Jesus Is Worthy of Obeisance
Is Jesus worthy of such obeisance? Most decidedly, yes! In his letter to the Hebrews, the apostle Paul explains that as the “heir of all things,” Jesus has “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.” (Hebrews 1:2-4) Thus, “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” - Philippians 2:10,11.

No, the brothers' view on this, never changed, from what I understand.
To my knowledge, they understood the difference between worship of Jehovah, and worship of Jesus.
Worship of Jesus was understood as the article states.

You’re preaching to the choir. I have no doubt of this. Glad we can agree.



For a group well acquainted with scripture your beliefs sure do change a lot. (Ephesians 4:14)


So why did Jehovah Witnesses start teaching before they got the truth? Shouldn’t they have waited until recently rather than risk bringing reproach upon Jehovah as His sole Witnesses on earth? Or was it more important to get any message out and call it “the truth”…whether it’s true or not? Perhaps God wanted Witnesses to preach half-truths in His Name until they got right?

Evidently, if the footstep followers of Jesus - the ones who actually saw him eye-to-eye, and touched his garments, and flesh, had started writing down what they understood the Lord meant, they would have had to rewrite their scrolls several times, and even after they died, someone would have had to later rewrite what they wrote.
Clearly, they seems to be a reason why those scrolls were written well after Jesus died.

i don't see a difference between those trying to understand the meaning of Jesus' and his disciples' words.
There will always be new understandings - the record shows this.

 

[nPeace]

What am I to make of this? In this very post you adamantly tell us the WT never changed its view on unnatural sex, which isn’t true, and that they never worshiped Jesus…which also is not true. Based on these untruths, you quote Acts 13:40-41 and suggest we’ll all perish because these untruths are a work of God?

What kind of “witness” is this? If Witnesses cannot tell the truth about themselves, or even distinguish what is true in their own message, how can they tell us the truth about God? Can we eat the entire meal after they knock or do we have to be careful and choose wisely what we bite down on?

And if I sign up will I have to become equally untruthful, telling people this or that never happened when it did? The whole thing doesn’t sound scriptural and certainly not like food from Jehovah. A little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough (Galatians 5:9)

IMO, your GB needs to apologize and repent so as not to remain in their sin. I see no way to argue it, ignore it, or sweep it under the rug.

You mean misunderstandings, don't you?
If you said something, and I misunderstood you, you are free to call it an untruth, but for most people who realize that I did not intentionally seek to twist your words, they know it was a misunderstanding.
This is how I see it.
Twisting someone's words, as I see it, is like for example, trying to support a doctrine, or idea - such as Jesus being God almighty, by misapplying expressions.

Thank you, Tartar. This means a lot and shows your heart is the right place even if some of your doctrines are not. It takes time to frame responses and if there was no love in you, then you certainly wouldn’t waste time discussing issues like this on the forum.

We disagree, but as you’ve stated before, we must all love one another.

Agape!!!

Great! We love not just in word, but in deed.
1 John 3:18 Little children, we should love, not in word or with the tongue, but in deed and truth.

 

[savagewind]

Watchtower 1972 Jan 1 p.32


The difference between the GB, and the Bible writers, is that while the Bible writers claimed to be inspired of God, the GB does not.

First of all, not all the writers of what has become the Bible "claimed to be inspired of God".

And secondly, will the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses please explain to us simple folks why God has given them the Kingdom if indeed they are really not inspired of God?

They are anointed. Are they not?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Perhaps the media should keep quiet, then all of us can see that crime is down.

That's what I've been saying the whole time. Crime is down, and the facts do not support the idea it's getting worse or going to be part of some doomsday prophecy. Most of the world has never been safer, regardless of how they feel (and these have been deemed times of high anxiety).

 

[nPeace]

That's what I've been saying the whole time. Crime is down, and the facts do not support the idea it's getting worse or going to be part of some doomsday prophecy. Most of the world has never been safer, regardless of how they feel (and these have been deemed times of high anxiety).

I knew it!
That's quite a deep sleep.
You seem to be enjoying that dream very much, so I 'll quit encouraging you to awake.

I won't bother to even mention the poor soldiers, and refugees that suffer for the crimes of the national leaders.
.... and...
No, sorry, the media will not keep quiet.
What is more, neither will people who see things as they are.

I'm not posting this in an effort to wake you. It's just to show that talking in ones sleep does not produce reliable and beneficial results... unless of course the dreamer is a prophet of God.

The world has experienced a measure of peace and safety on a far greater level in more than a few centuries than the twentieth century alone.

Thoughts and pictures come to my mind, . . . thoughts from before the year 1914 when there was real peace, quiet and security on this earth - a time when we didn’t know fear. . . . Security and quiet have disappeared from the lives of men since 1914.
Konrad Adenauer, Cleveland West Parker, January 20, 1966, p. 1

For this century, it has only just begun, and while some sleep, and dream of peace, some are on their toes waiting for the storm that follows the calm.
You say facts do not support a dooms day prophecy? You should read this book.
"The Long Peace"

Spoiler: Excerpts

I should like to begin this essay with a fable. Once upon a time, there was a great war that involved the slaughter of millions upon millions of people. When, after years of fighting, one side finally prevailed over the other and the war ended, every-one said that it must go down in history as the last great war ever fought. To that end, the victorious nations sent all of their wisest men to a great peace conference, where they were given the task of drawing up a settlement that would be so carefully designed, so unquestionably fair to all concerned, that it would eliminate war as a phenomenon of human existence. Unfortunately, that settlement lasted only twenty years. There followed yet another great war involving the slaughter of millions upon millions of people. When, after years of fighting, one side finally prevailed over the other and the war ended, everyone said that it must go down in history as the last great war ever fought. To everyone's horror, though, the victors in that conflict immediately fell to quarreling among themselves, with the result that no peace conference ever took place. Within a few years each of the major victors had come to regard each other, and not a few years each of the major victors had come to regard each other, and not their former enemies, as the principal threat to their survival; each sought to ensure that survival by developing weapons capable, at least in theory, of ending the survival of everyone on earth. Paradoxically, that arrangement lasted twice as long as the first one, and as the fable ended showed no signs of coming apart anytime soon. It is, of course, just a fable, and as a general rule one ought not to take fables too seriously. There are times, though, when fables can illuminate reality more sharply than conventional forms of explanation are able to do, and this may well be one of them. For it is the case that the post-World War II system of international relations, which nobody designed or even thought could last for very long, which was based not upon the dictates of morality and justice but rather upon an arbitrary and strikingly artificial division of the world into spheres of influence, and which incorporated within it some of the most bitter and persistent antagonisms short of war in modern history, has now survived twice as long as the far more carefully designed World War I settlement, has approximately equaled in longevity the great 19th century international systems of Metternich and Bismarck, and unlike those earlier systems after four decades of existence shows no perceptible signs of disintegration. It is, or ought to be, enough to make one think. To be sure, the term "peace" is not the first one that comes to mind when one recalls the history of the past forty years. That period, after all, has seen the greatest accumulation of armaments the world has ever known, a whole series of protracted and devastating limited wars, an abundance of revolutionary, ethnic, religious, and civil violence, as well as some of the deepest and most intractable ideological rivalries in human experience. Nor have those more ancient scourges - famine, disease, poverty, injustice - by any means disappeared from the face of the earth. Is it not stretching things a bit, one might well ask, to take the moral and spiritual desert in which the nations of the world conduct their affairs, and call it "peace"?

Systems Theory and International Stability
Anyone attempting to understand why there has been no third world war confronts a problem not unlike that of Sherlock Holmes and the dog that did not bark in the night: how does one account for something that did not happen? How does one explain why the great conflict between the United States and the Soviet Union, which by all past standards of historical experience should have developed by now, has not in fact done so? The question involves certain methodological difficulties, to be sure: it is always easier to account for what did happen than what did not. But there is also a curious bias among students of international relations that reinforces this tendency: "For every thousand pages published on the causes of wars," Geoffrey Blainey has commented, "there is less than one page directly on the causes of peace."' Even the discipline of "peace studies" suffers from this disproportion: it has given far more attention to the question of what we must do to avoid the apocalypse than it has to the equally interesting question of why, given all the opportunities, it has not happened so far. It might be easier to deal with this question if the work that has been done on the causes of war had produced something approximating a consensus on why wars develop: we could then apply that analysis to the post-1945 period and see what it is that has been different about it. But, in fact, these studies are not much help. Historians, political scientists, economists, sociologists, statisticians, even meteorologists, have wrestled for years with the question of what causes wars, and yet the most recent review of that literature concludes that "our understanding of war remains at an elementary level.
concludes that "our understanding of war remains at an elementary level. No widely accepted theory of the causes of war exists and little agreement has emerged on the methodology through which these causes might be discovered. " Nor has the comparative work that has been done on international systems shed much more light on the matter. The difficulty here is that our actual experience is limited to the operations of a single system - the balance of power system - operating either within the "multipolar" configuration that characterized international politics until World War 11, or the "bipolar" configuration that has characterized them since. Alternative systems remain abstract conceptualizations in the minds of theorists, and are of little use in advancing our knowledge of how wars in the real world do or do not occur.

Never felt so secure before, have we...

Locking Your Doors - SafeHome.org

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The world has experienced a measure of peace and safety on a far greater level in more than a few centuries than the twentieth century alone.

Name one other time in history where Europe has gone this long without any major internal wars/conflicts.
Instead of a 100 Year War, they've almost had 100 years of peace.

 

[sooda]

I didn't list just Revelation 13:8, I listed it together with Revelation 13:14. The "beast with two horns like a lamb was to "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" to worship the "beast" referred to in Revelation 13:8, by making an image to the "beast".

Anyone not written in the "book of life" from the foundation of the world will worship the "beast", who had the wound of the sword, and is the god emperor Julius Caesar, and not your maligned little Nero. Caesar's demon spirit will wield power as the 8th head of the beast by way of the 10 horns of the 8th head. (Revelation 17:11). The story is on going and by no means over.

Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast-all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Julius Caesar was long dead before the Jewish wars.

Nero was the emperor of persecution .. When he died people were afraid he would be reincarnated and return from across the Euphrates River with an army of Parthians .... He died in 68 AD.

On January 10, 49 BCE, Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon, signaling the start of civil war between his forces and those of the Roman who defiled the Holy of Holies. Pompey was a talented, ruthless general for Rome. He was the first Roman leader to understand that Rome could not successfully control the Middle East if it did not control Judea.

Julius Caesar and the Jews « Jewish History
www.jewishhistory.org/julius-caesar-and-the-jews/