You say that and then in the same breath cast doubt on the sincerity of those in the UN who are doing precisely that.
However, they see evidence of the promise of peace and security, through the means expressed, contrary to human promises.
Is that a good thing, or bad, in your view?
You seem to have the words “goal” and “promise” mixed up. A goal is not a promise that some supernatural state of peace will be achieved. It is simply an acknowledgment that human peace is a desirable state to work towards.
What i’m saying is that no human is promising peace and security, so there is no human promise to be contrary to. In fact we have the responsibility to keep things as peaceful as possible in the meantime regardless of whether or not some supernatural event is going to someday change the game.
Jesus said “blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God”. This is a biblical proof that we have to make peace in the meantime and not just weakly throw our arms in the air and say it is all too hard.
Not sure what you mean here. We have free will, so if I decide to get a cup of coffee my actions are "premeditated". However, on the way to the shop I could get hit by a car, which would not be "premeditated" by me nor by the driver, unless the driver made a conscious decision to hit somebody with his car that day.
As for Christ, I think it's clear he means to pass judgement on the wicked, so yes, you can consider this a "premeditated" action.
That would be annihilationism but there's nothing in scripture that teaches this doctrine.
Christ judges the wicked, he doesn't "destroy" them. The righteous do not come under judgement.
Not sure what you mean here. We have free will, so if I decide to get a cup of coffee my actions are "premeditated". However, on the way to the shop I could get hit by a car, which would not be "premeditated" by me nor by the driver, unless the driver made a conscious decision to hit somebody with his car that day.
As for Christ, I think it's clear he means to pass judgement on the wicked, so yes, you can consider this a "premeditated" action.
I think you say the scripture 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is a prophecy because you say it is to be fulfilled. Did you mean that? Is it a prophecy to be fulfilled like the Jehovah's Witnesses teach it?
If no, then OK, I misunderstood what you meant by "it will be fulfilled". If yes, then what is the destruction? Judgment is not destruction. Correct?
I also don't understand what you mean by "the righteous do not come under judgment".
Of course, they do! IMO How else can they be called righteous?
@danieldemol
I can understand why you believe there is a conflict in my words. There is no conflict. How we see, is usually based on how we think.
Notice my words... I agree with anyone making an honest and sincere, un-hypocritical genuine effort for good.
I'm looking at facts, and gathering evidence.
How long has this been around?
U.S. Congressional Record as of June 13, 1960, on page A 5022
Senator Kennedy . . . recently cited figures that would mean our arsenal now contains the equivalent of 1,250,000 bombs of the type that leveled Hiroshima. This was confirmed in substance by Thomas E. Murray, former Atomic Energy Commissioner, when he said we now have more than enough weapons to destroy the world.
National Purpose: Rossiter Concept - A Call to Rise Above Self-Interest to Aid ‘Whole Human Race’
Professor Clinton Rossiter said that the American people are besieged with doubts about their “capacity to flourish and perhaps even to survive”; and that, even though we might hold off a war crisis that will be worse than even war itself, the American people are “left deep in the crisis of a peace that is no peace. We pour an appalling amount of money, resources, skills and energy into the development and production of weapons we pray to God we will never use.”
American physicist, Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer - June 16, 1960
In the next war, none of us can count on having enough living to bury our dead.
In this decade the deadliness, the destructive power, of atomic stockpiles has increased far more than a hundredfold
Evans: Past Nuclear Treaty Optimism Diminishing 5 Years Later Speaking on the eve of the 2015 Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) Review Conference at the United Nations, former Australian foreign minister Gareth Evans said the global optimism that had characterized the last review five years ago had largely disappeared, leaving in its wake widespread pessimism over the prospects for a nuclear-free world.
This negative climate, Mr. Evans continued, is partly due to a drastic change in the way high-level policymakers view these weapons.
How deadly could these nuclear weapons be? The world's current collection of 14,900 nuclear weapons possesses enough power to kill millions of people and flatten dozens of cities.
According to Telegraph research, it is estimated that the US and Russian arsenals combined have power equating to 6,600 megatons. This is a tenth of the total solar energy received by Earth every minute.
According to the NukeMap website, the dropping of the B-83, the largest bomb in the current US arsenal, would kill 1.4m people in the first 24 hours. A further 3.7m people would be injured, as the thermal radiation radius reached 13.km.
Likewise, the "Tsar Bomba" is the largest USSR bomb tested. If this bomb was dropped on New York, it is estimated that it could kill 7.6m people and injure 4.2m more. The nuclear fallout could reach an approximate area of 7,880km on a 15mph wind, impacting millions more people.
Both America and Russia's arsenals are regulated by several treaties that place limits on the numbers and kinds of warheads and delivery systems they have.
If either country were to expand their nuclear capacity even further, as Trump and Putin have hinted at, it could shatter these agreements and plunge the world into a new Cold War.
Do terrorist sign treaties as well? Weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) constitute a class of weaponry with the potential to, in a single moment, kill millions of civilians, jeopardize the natural environment, and fundamentally alter the world and the lives of future generations through their catastrophic effects. The United Nations has sought to eliminate all categories of WMDs since its establishment, and the First Committee of the General Assembly has from the beginning been mandated to deal with disarmament, global challenges and threats to peace that affect the international community. Other UN bodies tasked with negotiating the elimination of WMDs include the Conference on Disarmament along with its predecessors, and the Disarmament Commission.
Military Spending and Poverty
Introduction
During the decade of the 1960s, while military spending increased as the coun-try mobilized and fought the Vietnam War, the Great Society programs began to make dramatic inroads into alleviating the high levels of poverty in the United States. ...And though rates fell throughout the late 1980s and the end of the Cold War, since 1991 they have again been increasing.
What does the evidence indicate?
There are people who go where the evidence leads, and there are people who are gullible and, swallow what's fed to them. They are not like the fish that just swallow the bait. They swallow everything hook, line, and sinker, imo.
There is an obvious reason why people run out of a buildings, and into the streets, when the earth starts to tremble. They know the building won't protect them. They go where they believe they will be safe.
I think people are becoming increasingly aware of the rapid shifting taking place in the world. They can see evidence of the instability of the system, and they are looking for a safe location.
I have noticed in recent decades, in the last century or so, a number of atheist have shifted their thinking. Some have accepted Christianity, or some other form of theism.
I can see that there is a reason people hold on tightly to their Bible, and won't let go.
Some people don't seem to see anything. It's as though they have blinders on.
In the OP, I mentioned the rodeo mafia. Did you check it out?
I stumbled on it, when I came across a video posted by someone playing a role in trying to get it stopped. Do you know who he alleges they are up against? I'll leave you to figure that out.
Most of us heard about Boka Haram. When did we hear about them? When hundreds of "innocent" girls were taken from their schools - taken from their parents, and held captive for years. News that left millions around the world stunned, and in tears. I'm writing this, and drying my eyes.
How long were the activities and whereabouts of BH known by the World Powers, before the abductions? It was public knowledge where their hideout was, and it was not among civilians. Were they more powerful than the "good guys"? I'll leave you to figure that one out also.
It seems to me there are people that prefer to walk around with blinders on. They don't seem to want to remove them, because... Perhaps it's because they see no hope except they look in the direction they are currently looking.
I think, with the blinders off, one will acknowledge what seems evident, and go where the evidence leads.
I am weighting the evidence, and What I am seeing, only points one direction... every time.
Do you know what the Bible says at Revelation 6:15-17? Do you know what it's actually describing?
I find the Bible to be so amazingly accurate.
It even paints a vivid picture for us, in the book of Daniel, of what is to happen.
The evidence apparently is quite clear to some.
Why is it that people who long for peace, are at war? It makes no sense. Unless... Revelation 12:7-9, 12
Why is it that people who are supposed to have love, are murdering their children - tiny helpless living things?
It seems evident to many people that Satan is a real enemy.
To others, he is a figment of the imagination.
Whatever the view, we all choose where we fit.
For example...
When the nations go to war, they seek to enroll fighters. I wonder why... They don't have enough, or they just want the dispensable?
However, there are person, we refer to them as conscientious objectors. They don't want to fight - war or no war. They believe in peace.
I'll like to ask you.
What do you think of those conscientious objectors? Are they good or bad? Are they working for good, or bad?
What is good? Who decides?
Recently the Army Chemical Corps staged a series of lectures and demonstrations for newsmen at Dugway Proving Ground in Utah, aimed at removing prejudices against chemical and biological warfare — "CW" and "BW" in military terminology. Ten years ago, the spokesman admitted, there was a stigma attached to CW and BW, but, he added, "there has been a lot of progress in this field." As an example, he cited the nerve gas "GB" (for German Type B) which, according to the correspondent of the New York Herald Tribune, "induces death in a matter of minutes after the victim first suffers a chest tightening, salivation and perspiration, vomiting, pinpointing of the eyes, convulsions and finally death from a filling of the lungs with fluid. Despite these reactions, the Chemical Corps scientists said, death is painless."
To prove i[t], the Chemical Corps fired GB shells at goats and pigeons. Within a minute and a half, all the nearby goats and pigeons had "gone into a few quick convulsions, rolled over and died." One goat was masked "and appeared to thrive until, in his excitement, he tore the tube on his gas mask free, inhaled the GB and died in two minutes." The Army, it seems, gives a regular CBR (chemical, biological, radiological) Weapons Orientation Course weekly to selected visitors at Dugway. Colonel Joseph C. Prentice, the course direct.'!, says, "I'm an enthusiast over biological and chemical warfare. 1 think it's great stuff. It's more humane than anything else [we’ve got]. " His enthusi
I agree with anyone making an honest and sincere, un-hypocritical genuine effort for good.
From a Baha'i Perspective the 'Most Great Peace' will come. It is now unfortunately quite some time off, as man has rejected what was required to bring this about.
Thus Baha'u'llah has said that 'mankind's peace and security are now unattainable, unless and until its unity, is firmly established".
This 'Lesser Peace', will most likely only be considered after a catastrophic event unfolds, an event/events that show mankind its folly in not implementing the God Given virtues. It is then that the Governments of the world will meet to establish the foundation of the 'Lesser Peace'. So it will be mankind as a whole that does bring the 'Lesser Peace', a unity in our diversity. The Most Great Peace will be founded on what God has given us.
I would offer the world is soon to face great change, but in reality no one can know Gods timing of these events.
There is much written on this in the Baha'i Writings if you wish to discuss further.
Unfortunately it has been foretold in our Faith that this will be the result of our disunity. It has gone pass the point of no return.
What is good to note, is how the destructive forces (negative) work alongside the forces of hope and optimism (positive) that change our collective mind for the better.
There is so much hope evident in this world for the peace that will come, but the old world order is falling apart at the same time. Those that cling to it are the ones that make the news and unfortunately have the fingers on the buttons.
I can only wish everybody well and happiness in these times. We all choose our path and how we become part of the required change.
From a Baha'i Perspective the 'Most Great Peace' will come. It is now unfortunately quite some time off, as man has rejected what was required to bring this about.
This 'Lesser Peace', will most likely only be considered after a catastrophic event unfolds, an event/events that show mankind its folly in not implementing the God Given virtues. It is then that the Governments of the world will meet to establish the foundation of the 'Lesser Peace'. So it will be mankind as a whole that does bring the 'Lesser Peace', a unity in our diversity. The Most Great Peace will be founded on what God has given us.
I would offer the world is soon to face great change, but in reality no one can know Gods timing of these events.
There is much written on this in the Baha'i Writings if you wish to discuss further.
I personally see it will now be a distant future that sees the Most Great Peace. The 'Most Great Peace' requires humanity as a whole to embrace Gods Message and Laws in the age they have been given. Baha'u'llah wrote after all the Rulers had rejected or not responded to His Message offering the 'Most Great Peace', "Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependants.
I quote the passage from Baha'u'llah; "The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 286.
Peace and security lays in our submission unto God, His advice and laws. As we move further away from God and His Laws, the more that mans influence pervaded the common thoughts, the further we depart from what is the required virtue.
We have to eliminate all prejudices and bring about equal opportunity for all the human race.
Baha'u'llah has described what the Lesser peace will be built upon and this is a couple of passages;
"Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should anyone among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice.."
"We pray God--exalted be His glory--and cherish the hope that He may graciously assist the manifestations of affluence and power and the daysprings of sovereignty and glory, the kings of the earth--may God aid them through His strengthening grace--to establish the Lesser Peace. This, indeed, is the greatest means for insuring the tranquillity of the nations. It is incumbent upon the Sovereigns of the world--may God assist them--unitedly to hold fast unto this Peace, which is the chief instrument for the protection of all mankind. It is Our hope that they will arise to achieve what will be conducive to the well-being of man. It is their duty to convene an all-inclusive assembly, which either they themselves or their ministers will attend, and to enforce whatever measures are required to establish unity and concord amongst men. They must put away the weapons of war, and turn to the instruments of universal reconstruction. Should one king rise up against another, all the other kings must arise to deter him. Arms and armaments will, then, be no more needed beyond that which is necessary to insure the internal security of their respective countries. If they attain unto this all-surpassing blessing, the people of each nation will pursue, with tranquillity and contentment, their own occupations, and the groanings and lamentations of most men would be silenced."
I note this passage says that humanity must turn towards 'the instruments of universal reconstruction'.
No sane person will engage in an arms race with the US.
It's more a power race - a show of power, in a world where one nation wants to be supreme in everything, and control.
Some just flex their muscles, and say, "Bring it on." ...and the super power is lust itching to do so. IMO.
Interestingly, I see this is part of the move to the Lesser Peace.
America has been foretold as being the Nation that is at forefront of trying to establish peace in the world; In 1912, Abdul'baha delivered talks such as these in America;
"..May this American democracy be the first nation to establish the foundation of international agreement. May it be the first nation to proclaim the universality of mankind. May it be the first to upraise the standard of the Most Great Peace, and through this nation of democracy may these philanthropic intentions and institutions be spread broadcast throughout the world. Truly, this is a great and revered nation. Here liberty has reached its highest degree. The intentions of its people are most praiseworthy. They are, indeed, worthy of being the first to build the Tabernacle of the Most Great Peace and proclaim the oneness of mankind. I will supplicate God for assistance and confirmation in your behalf..." (Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 35-37)
"This revered American nation presents evidences of greatness and worth. It is my hope that this just government will stand for peace so that warfare may be abolished throughout the world and the standards of national unity and reconciliation be upraised. This is the greatest attainment of the world of humanity. This American nation is equipped and empowered to accomplish that which will adorn the pages of history, to become the envy of the world and be blest in the East and the West for the triumph of its democracy." (Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 103)
This has been compiled by Darren Hiebert on the destiny of America; The Destiny of America
The verse is speaking about events that occur during the tribulation period so there will have been destruction all around but there is no annihilationism.
The “sudden destruction” refers to an arduous period of judgement. It's different from the sudden destruction visited upon, say Sodom. Note how Thessalonians 5:3 describes it:
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
A travail is an ordeal, trial or tribulation and when used as a verb means to engage in painful or laborious effort.
By the Day of Judgment vast swaths of our planet’s population will have already died, but they are not “destroyed”. In fact, the days will be cut short just to save the remaining populace from dying.
For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22
JW’s have taught a lot of prophesies over the years, none of which were fulfilled as taught. It’s why their “truth” always requires a tweak here, a fine tune there, or is quietly laid in the dark to rest until “new light” comes along.
That said, the Watchtower teaches if you die before Armageddon you are destroyed or annihilated. Later, a copy of you is recreated from God’s memory and it’s the copy, not you, that takes your place, thinks and acts like you, and inherits your reward if you have any. IMO, that certainly is not anything we should consider scriptural.
“Do not judge,or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:1-2
In other words, Christians are judged when they judge, not when they don’t, a concept many a “only true religion” have yet to come to terms with.
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24
The words of Jesus, “…will not be judged” are pretty clear.
I am referring to the judgement at the Great White Throne. Those in Christ belong to the body of Christ and do not come under judgement because Christ does not judge himself.
Unfortunately for Witnesses, the Watchtower teaches that only the elect, or 144,000 belong to the body of Christ. They thus build a theological and spiritual wall between their members and Christ using unscriptural terms and concepts like “Jehovah’s visible Organization”. Their salvation thus becomes dependent upon continued association with this supposed Organization rather than Christ.
There have been judgments in the past, like the judgement of Adam & Eve, there are some going on now, and their are judgments to come, including the judgement of nations and the judgement we will give upon the angels. You can read more about them here.
It seems you just repeated yourself Viole. I don't see that you answered my questions. Are you able to?
By the way, do you really honestly believe what you are saying? Really?
I don't understand what you mean. You seem to believe that love is something metaphysical that transcends the physical processes running in our brains.
Really?
Optimism runs high among many... Will the Nations really bring Peace and Security, or will their cry spell Sudden Destruction? 1 Thessalonians 5:3Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.
What we know... CRIME & VIOLENCE GLOBAL STUDY ON HOMICIDE 2013 Intentional homicide caused the deaths of almost half a million people (437,000) across the world in 2012.
Homicide rate In 2015 an estimated 470 000 people worldwide were victims of homicide (global rate of 6.4 per 100 000).
Paying attention... The Quest For Peace and Security GLOBAL VIOLENT DEATHS 2017 - Time to Decide
..... Approximately 560,000 people lost their lives violently in 2016, meaning that, on average, interpersonal or collective violence killed at least one person every minute of every day of the year. For every person killed, many others suffered devastating consequences.
Can man solve the problem...? The UN's Agenda...
At the global level, there is a growing desire to identify strategies to prevent violence and violent deaths.The international community recognizes the need to prioritize conflict prevention by tackling the root causes of tensions, helping to build and strengthen institutions, and ... At the national level, a growing number of states have invested in promoting initiatives to prevent crime and violence (WHO, UNODC, and UNDP, 2014, p. 27).
The 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development has the potential to usher in much needed changes. When world leaders gathered at the United Nations in September 2015 to adopt a landmark blueprint for global development, they recognized peaceful societies as a prerequisite for all 17 Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) of the 2030 Agenda — and as a goal in its own right. In committing to Goal 16, all states pledge to promote ‘peaceful and inclusive societies for sustainable development, provide access to justice for all and build effective, accountable and inclusive institutions at all levels’ (UNGA, 2015, p. 25). The 2030 Agenda is the first universal framework to make an explicit connection between violence, conflict, and development, stating that ‘sustainable development cannot be realized without peace and security; and peace and security will be at risk without sustainable development’. ..... The 2030 Agenda thus calls for an unprecedented global shift in attention towards a reduction in violent deaths as a means of facilitating global development.
Will man accomplish it? Or... Are the problems too huge for man to solve? It seems the problems are too big for man, for a number of reasons - man's nature (Romans 1:28-32; 5:12; Galatians 5:19-21), and man's enemy (Ephesians 6:12; Revelation 12:12)
[GALLERY=media, 8849]Problems by nPeace posted Jan 29, 2019 at 3:57 AM[/GALLERY]
Thus man needs a big hand.
Has anyone shown themselves competent for the job? Yes. There is Concrete Evidence Jehovah's Will Successful get the Job done.
Jehovah proves that he is successful at teaching his subjects how to live in peace.
Isaiah 2:3, 4
They will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.
Millions of JWs all around the world are learning from God how to be peaceable. (Matthew 5:9) Although they make up hundreds of different ethnic groups and live in over 239 different lands, they refuse to take up arms against their fellow man, and endeavor to be united in love, and thought. (1 Corinthians 1:10)
However, the nations reject God's rulership - Psalms 2:1-3
That's too bad though, because like it or not the earth belongs to Jehovah... and according to the Bible, he's taking over. So I guess that means... it's war!
...but first... a call for peace. : After all, Jehovah is a merciful God - abundant in loyal love and a lover of Justice.
Psalm 2:4-12 4 The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah will scoff at them. 5 At that time he will speak to them in his anger And terrify them in his burning anger, 6 Saying: “I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain.” ...10So now, you kings, show insight; Accept correction, you judges of the earth.11Serve Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling.12Honor the son, or God will become indignant And you will perish from the way, For His anger flares up quickly. Happy are all those taking refuge in Him.
The proud want's no peace with God though. So... Here are Jehovah's Decrees, as outlined in his word.
What God’s Kingdom will do...
Decree 1. Replace all human governments and rule over the entire earth. (Daniel 2:44; Revelation 16:14)
Decree 2. Remove the wicked, whose selfishness harms us all. - Psalms 37:9-11, 29; Proverbs 2:22.
Decree 3. End all wars. - Psalm 46:9.
Decree 4. Bring prosperity and security to the earth. - Micah 4:4
Decree 5. Make the earth into a paradise. - Isaiah 35:1
Decree 6. Provide everyone with meaningful, enjoyable work. - Isaiah 65:21-23.
Decree 7. Eliminate disease and bring perfect health. - Isaiah 33:24; 35:5, 6.
Decree 8. Set us free from the aging process. - Job 33:25.
Decree 9. Bring the dead back to life. - John 5:28, 29.
Decree 10. Unite all mankind in pure worship of the true God. (Jeremiah 16:20, 21)
Decree 11. End all "natural" disasters. (Revelation 11:18) . . .to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.
From the Biblical perspective, and the way I see it, only Jehovah can succeed in ending poverty worldwide, and make it possible for all to have truly happy lives. Why Sudden Destruction at the cry of Peace and Security?
'Cause man's rule is a failure, as is evident.
No man can stop corruption - man himself is corrupt.
I thought I had seen man in his cruelest form, until I saw the recent rodeo. Has anyone seen mafia's rodeo?
I used to think that child sexual assault was man's height of sickness, until I saw this, but God only knows the unimaginable sick things man is doing, which I haven't seen... and probably is better off not seeing. What optimistic views do you have about stopping the level of corruption involved in the ongoing business of mafia's rodeo? Do you still think man can stop corruption?
So Peace and Security it appears, will be a reality, but not by man. That's the way I see it. What are your thoughts?
I would say it is a failure in terms of shortcoming of wise leadership at all levels, but especially in the international community, because people in general tends to emulate them and follow their example.
Leadership is a combination of character and strategy, but present day leaders are too calculating in terms of selfish interests and of less character.
If earth is to progress at all levels, there has to be a progressive leadership of character at the top and lower levels, whether in official or unofficial roles. Otherwise there is bound to be regression.
Character or a higher state of consciousness is the key.
I don't understand what you mean. You seem to believe that love is something metaphysical that transcends the physical processes running in our brains.
Really?
Of course they are. They are all those processes running in our brains, you know. And when they stop working, because of some brain damage or degenerative process, then we stop being able to work. Even met someone with advanced Alzheimer being to work properly?
There is no fantasy land where our mind runs. It runs only in our very physical brains. And when the brain stops, when the minds cease to exist. Isn't that self evident?
Of course they are. They are all those processes running in our brains, you know. And when they stop working, because of some brain damage or degenerative process, then we stop being able to work. Even met someone with advanced Alzheimer being to work properly?
There is no fantasy land where our mind runs. It runs only in our very physical brains. And when the brain stops, when the minds cease to exist. Isn't that self evident?
I personally see it will now be a distant future that sees the Most Great Peace. The 'Most Great Peace' requires humanity as a whole to embrace Gods Message and Laws in the age they have been given. Baha'u'llah wrote after all the Rulers had rejected or not responded to His Message offering the 'Most Great Peace', "Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependants.
I quote the passage from Baha'u'llah; "The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 286.
Peace and security lays in our submission unto God, His advice and laws. As we move further away from God and His Laws, the more that mans influence pervaded the common thoughts, the further we depart from what is the required virtue.
We have to eliminate all prejudices and bring about equal opportunity for all the human race.
Baha'u'llah has described what the Lesser peace will be built upon and this is a couple of passages;
"Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should anyone among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice.."
"We pray God--exalted be His glory--and cherish the hope that He may graciously assist the manifestations of affluence and power and the daysprings of sovereignty and glory, the kings of the earth--may God aid them through His strengthening grace--to establish the Lesser Peace. This, indeed, is the greatest means for insuring the tranquillity of the nations. It is incumbent upon the Sovereigns of the world--may God assist them--unitedly to hold fast unto this Peace, which is the chief instrument for the protection of all mankind. It is Our hope that they will arise to achieve what will be conducive to the well-being of man. It is their duty to convene an all-inclusive assembly, which either they themselves or their ministers will attend, and to enforce whatever measures are required to establish unity and concord amongst men. They must put away the weapons of war, and turn to the instruments of universal reconstruction. Should one king rise up against another, all the other kings must arise to deter him. Arms and armaments will, then, be no more needed beyond that which is necessary to insure the internal security of their respective countries. If they attain unto this all-surpassing blessing, the people of each nation will pursue, with tranquillity and contentment, their own occupations, and the groanings and lamentations of most men would be silenced."
I note this passage says that humanity must turn towards 'the instruments of universal reconstruction'.
I would have been inclined to agree with what Bahaullah said here...
Peace and security lays in our submission unto God, His advice and laws. As we move further away from God and His Laws, the more that mans influence pervaded the common thoughts, the further we depart from what is the required virtue.
However, he seems to be saying as you have said, that peace and security to all mankind will only come, when man submits to God. Is that correct?
I understand that you go by Bahaullah's teachings, but I go by the Bible, which I find often doesn't support or harmonize with the Bahai teachings.
For example, the idea that peace on earth is dependent on man, or that God expected such unification seems to me, contrary to what the Bible says.
From the beginning of human rule, independent of God, he knew it was a failure. He even told the Israelites this, when they asked for a human king to rule them. (1 Samuel 8:4-18)
I didn't realize there were so many passages in the Bible, that highlighted peace and security, as a blessing, but I don't see it as applying to the world.
Isaiah 26 says this... American Standard Version (ASV) 3Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee; because he trusteth in thee. 4 Trust ye in Jehovah for ever; for in Jehovah, even Jehovah, is an everlasting rock.
Isaiah 32:17 The result of true righteousness will be peace, And the fruitage of true righteousness will be lasting tranquillity and security.
American Standard Version (ASV)
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 14 25 These things have I spoken unto you, while yet abiding with you. 26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful.
(Matthew 10:12, 13; Luke 19:37, 38, 41-43; John 20:19)
Evidently, these scriptures speak of peace existing among a select few - those who accept peace with Jesus the Christ. It's a peace the world knows nothing about, because they do not accept Jesus as lord.
(John 16:33; Ephesians 2:14; Philippians 4:6, 7; Colossians 3:15; 2 Thessalonians 3:16)
These seem to harmonize with scriptures such as, Psalm 29:10, 11, which would involve peace now, and in the eternal future, and Psalm 85:8-12, Psalm 119:165, and many others, including the prophecies in Isaiah, and Daniel.
Psalm 119:165 Great peace have they that love thy law; And they have no occasion of stumbling.
Interestingly the scriptures make these statements - (Isaiah 57:20, 21) 20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea; for it cannot rest, and its waters cast up mire and dirt. 21There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
They seem accurate to me.
What is evident today, is exactly what the Bible says, and prophesies.
I know Bahais have their own interpretations based on Bahaullah teachings, so you would have to tell me how you see these scriptures.
However, I have had conversation with one member, and I understand Bahais don't see this world as being under the rule of a wicked agent called Devil, and Satan, but I believe this to be the case, and Jesus did not come to aid Satan in his rule, by patching up this system.
From what you described about the Lesser Peace, you seem to be one who is optimistic of mankind bringing peace and security.
However, there seems to be some conflict in Bahaullah's words.
He says... and to enforce whatever measures are required to establish unity and concord amongst men.
Then he says... They must put away the weapons of war, and turn to the instruments of universal reconstruction. Should one king rise up against another, all the other kings must arise to deter him. Arms and armaments will, then, be no more needed beyond that which is necessary to insure the internal security of their respective countries.
So, by any means necessary would, or could involve using weapons of mass destruction (WMDs), and wiping out countless civilians, bringing about permanent damage to health. True?
What about terrorist?
Let's look at this scenario. Peace and Security at last! All warring nations are disarmed - except the peace makers! Rebels gather arms from corrupt money hungry officials - including WMDs that are still around. They attack unarmed nations. We have a breach of security. What is the solution?
This is your reply to another post to which is relevant in this post
Interestingly, I see this is part of the move to the Lesser Peace.
America has been foretold as being the Nation that is at forefront of trying to establish peace in the world; In 1912, Abdul'baha delivered talks such as these in America;
"..May this American democracy be the first nation to establish the foundation of international agreement. May it be the first nation to proclaim the universality of mankind. May it be the first to upraise the standard of the Most Great Peace, and through this nation of democracy may these philanthropic intentions and institutions be spread broadcast throughout the world. Truly, this is a great and revered nation. Here liberty has reached its highest degree. The intentions of its people are most praiseworthy. They are, indeed, worthy of being the first to build the Tabernacle of the Most Great Peace and proclaim the oneness of mankind. I will supplicate God for assistance and confirmation in your behalf..." (Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 35-37)
"This revered American nation presents evidences of greatness and worth. It is my hope that this just government will stand for peace so that warfare may be abolished throughout the world and the standards of national unity and reconciliation be upraised. This is the greatest attainment of the world of humanity. This American nation is equipped and empowered to accomplish that which will adorn the pages of history, to become the envy of the world and be blest in the East and the West for the triumph of its democracy." (Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 103)
This has been compiled by Darren Hiebert on the destiny of America; The Destiny of America
You probably noticed that I did mention religion that supports the corrupt system.
I see them as part of the system. As Jesus put it - "Part of the world".
He discouraged this. His followers were to be no part of the world, and I understand this to mean that politics and pure worship does not mix.
I see the book of Revelation, as describing the relationship that would exist between warmongering Gog and Magog, and the religious harlot that will look to the nations for protection, but will be disappointed, when they realize they cannot escape the wrath of the one seated on the white horse, who will destroy them for their failure to trust in God, and do his will, instead of trusting is the nations.
I believe, Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) will be the war to end all wars. It will not be a war that harms the innocent, but it will be selective - a righteous war to remove every trace of corruption, greed, and hypocrisy - political, commercial, and religious.
Only then, will peace and security be established.
What makes the Lesser Peace, any better in your opinion?
Have they submitted to God, as Bahaullah mentioned? Peace and security lays in our submission unto God,
Then why should they be spared destruction, at the hands of the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6, 7)? Or don't you believe the Prince of Peace will be fully engaged as is stated. Revelation 19:19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army.
Revelation 19:11-21
11 I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. 17 I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of strong men and the flesh of horses and of those seated on them, and the flesh of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.” 19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
The scriptures say that those who worship the beast, are killed. Apparently they also have the mark of the beast on their right hand and forehead. - Revelation 14:9-12
What this seems to show is that those who give their support to, and trust in, the arm that is against God, will not survive, because they failed to put their faith in God, and trust in his promises.
I think that's compromise, and shows that they did not really belong to God.
What do you think?
After all, Jehovah is a merciful God - abundant in loyal love and a lover of Justice.