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People are being manipulated into hating Muslims

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Exactly what "it" are you referring to, because I'm NOT referring to terrorism. I'm referring to mainstream, conservative Islamism.

You are wanting to focus on groups. Focus on the individual, not the groups they are a apart of. There are over a billion Muslims. Why would people think hundreds of millions of them go around force converting everyone they see?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You are wanting to focus on groups. Focus on the individual, not the groups they are a apart of. There are over a billion Muslims. Why would people think hundreds of millions of them go around force converting everyone they see?

Once again, what "it" are you referring to? I'm simply asking you to clarify what you said.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Once again, what "it" are you referring to? I'm simply asking you to clarify what you said.

I am referring to Islamic terrorism. Both Isis and book harram have been fought by Muslims in muslims majority countries, but they don't seem to talk about that much.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I am referring to Islamic terrorism. Both Isis and book harram have been fought by Muslims in muslims majority countries, but they don't seem to talk about that much.

As you know, I'm quite concerned about Islam. About 1% of that concern is directed towards terrorism. The rest of my concern has to do with Islamic: supremacism, anti-secularism, theocracies, misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism and so on.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I think it's been made quite clear that the powers that be have been trying to divide us for years. They've done the same thing with races like white and blacks, whenever cops are involved, they have to bring up the race, (as if that was important to begin with) Or they end up talking about the motive's of the lunatics. Even if you found out the motive, they still broke the law. It doesn't make it less or more heinous of a crime

People act as if if they weren't Muslim, they wouldn't have committed crimes. Seeing how there is good and bad Muslims, it never occurred to some people that maybe they were just lunatics? And that you're going to see lunatics, no matter what faith they belong to? IF what they said was true, how come my Muslim friends have never force converted me? And I know people are going to bring up that law in Muslim culture that gives Muslims permission to lie about their faith, but it was not because they can't infiltrate, It was used for protection against other countries who asked what their faith was, and that they have permission to lie about it. If a Buddhist majority country was oppressing non Buddhists, a Muslim could like about their faith to avoid being persecuted. Most of these Muslim bashers never even met a Muslim in their life, let alone talked to one, like I have. I have experience, because I wanted to know the truth. I know there are good Muslims as well as bad.

Then people read 2 pages of the Quran and read the news, which is bias anyway and come to the conclusion that every single Muslim believes in the exact sam thing (even though there's multiple branches of Islam) and that they all want to force convert everyone (even though the Quran has also spoken out against force conversion) Some of these attacks come from Christians mentioning contradictions in the Quran. (Yeah, like there's no contradictions in the Bible or other holy scriptures, right?)

They have no idea they are being manipulated into hating them.

The powers that be want boogeymen, to scare people, and people think if they see the faith of the lunatic, they begin to think everyone who shares that faith is equally bad and is supporting such actions, even though there have been Muslims condemning it and even fighting against it overseas. You do know ISIS and Boko Harraam has killed Muslims too, right? And you do know Muslim majority countries have been fighting against them, right?

Am I seriously the only one noticing this divide and conquer move? This isn't a new trick, this has been done before and millions are falling for it. They are being manipulated into hating each other, so they will be too weak and distracted to know who the real enemy is. You think there's a War on Islam? No. There never was? It doesn't make sense. How can you declare war on an idea, and how can you win it? Makes about as much sense as the war on terror? That can't be won because it's supposed to be not winnable so the wars go on and on, because you're not fighting a country or entity.

You think Muslims are the biggest enemy? Not even close. Some Muslims are already on your side. They want the same things you want, which is peace with their loved ones. Instead focus on the people who manipulated you in the first place.

Yeah, by Muslims.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Yeah, by Muslims.

Why are you called "ThePainfulTruth?" If you knew the truth, you would have known that Muslims have not been behind this

Muslims themselves are not trying to divide us and they are not even close to being the real enemy. I already know there are good Muslims, why haven't you realized that?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Why are you called "ThePainfulTruth?" If you knew the truth, you would have known that Muslims have not been behind this

Muslims themselves are not trying to divide us and they are not even close to being the real enemy. I already know there are good Muslims, why haven't you realized that?
It's not the good folks we should be concerned about. They are not the problem. The Muslim world currently has a genuine problem with its more fanatical elements and though Islam does not support or encourage terrorism it does promote fanaticism.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Why are you called "ThePainfulTruth?" If you knew the truth, you would have known that Muslims have not been behind this

Muslims themselves are not trying to divide us and they are not even close to being the real enemy. I already know there are good Muslims, why haven't you realized that?

Maybe there are good Muslims, in fact I'm sure there are. But they are scattered and in fear for their lives for being labeled as apostates. Sharia is THE mandate that ALL Muslims are committed to accomplish, This is what ALL Muslims have surrendered themselves to bring about"

Quran (9:29):
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Sharia is THE mandate that ALL Muslims are committed to accomplish, This is what ALL Muslims have surrendered themselves to bring about"

Not true. I for one am committed to fighting against Sharee'ah. There are plenty of us who are not keen on Sharee'ah.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Maybe there are good Muslims, in fact I'm sure there are. But they are scattered and in fear for their lives for being labeled as apostates. Sharia is THE mandate that ALL Muslims are committed to accomplish, This is what ALL Muslims have surrendered themselves to bring about"

Quran (9:29):
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Did you forget the other passages that say force conversion is against Islam? Or any other quotes people conveniently look over? Have you read the Quran or looked at the history behind it? You can't base everything on one text, especially when it was written over a thousand years ago, meaning they had different ways of practicing Islam, and it was written by multiple people, like the bible

Not to mention not every Muslim country follows sharia law. Some follow it to the letter, others take bits and pieces and others don't follow it all. Why do you think every Muslim has the exact same beliefs because they read the Quran. That's like saying every christian is the same because they read the bible. Don't you know there's multiple branches of Islam? You're focusing your attention on the wrong people. There are others that are far more dangerous than Muslims. Muslim fanatics are a danger, but fanatics in general are a danger. Even so there are things so much worse than the fanatics.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Did you forget the other passages that say force conversion is against Islam? Or any other quotes people conveniently look over? Have you read the Quran or looked at the history behind it? You can't base everything on one text, especially when it was written over a thousand years ago, meaning they had different ways of practicing Islam, and it was written by multiple people, like the bible.

All of those are non-arguments. The existence of contradictory passages undermines the divine authority of the whole text because they make it irrational, and allow people to cherry pick whatever passage justifies what they want to do. It is essentially proof that the whole thing is man made, not divinely inspired, much less divinely protected. And that goes double (for me) for the Bible. They're just more evidence in the pile that all revelation is corrupt hearsay. True morality is incredibly simple.

Not to mention not every Muslim country follows sharia law. Some follow it to the letter, others take bits and pieces and others don't follow it all.

You help prove my point. It doesn't even treat its own adherents equally, like for example, women.
Why do you think every Muslim has the exact same beliefs because they read the Quran.

I don't, but all Muslims have surrendered themselves to it, by definition, and are bound to work to establish Sharia, parts of which are inherently immoral/evil. Theocracy by any other name will smell as bad. And I continue to argue against Christians who want to encode their non moral beliefs into law. What if they had the power to make everybody go to church on Sunday (which I've hears some of them express). That gives you an idea of what Sharia being made into law would be like.


That's like saying every christian is the same because they read the bible. Don't you know there's multiple branches of Islam? You're focusing your attention on the wrong people. There are others that are far more dangerous than Muslims. Muslim fanatics are a danger, but fanatics in general are a danger. Even so there are things so much worse than the fanatics.

The first thing any so-called moderate Muslims need to do is deny the goal of establishing Sharia, including disavowing any physical retribution against apostates. Shun them all you want. Only then will I take them seriously.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
Did you forget the other passages that say force conversion is against Islam? Or any other quotes people conveniently look over? Have you read the Quran or looked at the history behind it? You can't base everything on one text, especially when it was written over a thousand years ago, meaning they had different ways of practicing Islam, and it was written by multiple people, like the bible

Not to mention not every Muslim country follows sharia law. Some follow it to the letter, others take bits and pieces and others don't follow it all. Why do you think every Muslim has the exact same beliefs because they read the Quran. That's like saying every christian is the same because they read the bible. Don't you know there's multiple branches of Islam? You're focusing your attention on the wrong people. There are others that are far more dangerous than Muslims. Muslim fanatics are a danger, but fanatics in general are a danger. Even so there are things so much worse than the fanatics.
What things are "so much worse than the fanatics?"
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
all Muslims have surrendered themselves to it, by definition, and are bound to work to establish Sharia

As I have said already, I have not. And why by definition?

The first thing any so-called moderate Muslims need to do is deny the goal of establishing Sharia, including disavowing any physical retribution against apostates.

I wouldn't describe myself as a moderate Muslim. But I certainly deny the goal of establishing Sharee'ah. And I certainly disavow any physical retribution against an apostate (just because they are an apostate).
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
All of those are non-arguments. The existence of contradictory passages undermines the divine authority of the whole text because they make it irrational, and allow people to cherry pick whatever passage justifies what they want to do. It is essentially proof that the whole thing is man made, not divinely inspired, much less divinely protected. And that goes double (for me) for the Bible. They're just more evidence in the pile that all revelation is corrupt hearsay. True morality is incredibly simple.



You help prove my point. It doesn't even treat its own adherents equally, like for example, women.


I don't, but all Muslims have surrendered themselves to it, by definition, and are bound to work to establish Sharia, parts of which are inherently immoral/evil. Theocracy by any other name will smell as bad. And I continue to argue against Christians who want to encode their non moral beliefs into law. What if they had the power to make everybody go to church on Sunday (which I've hears some of them express). That gives you an idea of what Sharia being made into law would be like.




The first thing any so-called moderate Muslims need to do is deny the goal of establishing Sharia, including disavowing any physical retribution against apostates. Shun them all you want. Only then will I take them seriously.

What point am I proving? You don't have a point to prove. You're just naysaying because you didn't take the time to get to know Muslims. You take bits and pieces of text and news and assume every Muslim is the same. You have to look at their culture too. Sometimes they do something, not because their religion demands it but it's part of their culture. Muslims in Saudi Arabia will not be the same as the ones in Kazakstan. That's not something to be debated.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
One doesn't have to look too far to find Muslim-majority countries where the people don't seem to be in any great rush to bring Sharee'ah back.

Humor me.
As I have said already, I have not. And why by definition?

You don't know that Islam means surrender?

I wouldn't describe myself as a moderate Muslim. But I certainly deny the goal of establishing Sharee'ah. And I certainly disavow any physical retribution against an apostate (just because they are an apostate).

So you disavow parts of the Koran? Did Mohammed not write them or did he get it wrong--and how do you know which are authentic and which not? I'm not saying you're lying, but the Koran allows it when dealing with infidels, so you could be, and you're just one person. Can you point to any recognized, Muslim organization that does disavow Sharia and physical retribution against apostates? If so, I'll start sending them donations and o/w promoting them when I can.

What point am I proving? You don't have a point to prove. You're just naysaying because you didn't take the time to get to know Muslims. You take bits and pieces of text and news and assume every Muslim is the same. You have to look at their culture too. Sometimes they do something, not because their religion demands it but it's part of their culture. Muslims in Saudi Arabia will not be the same as the ones in Kazakstan. That's not something to be debated.

Islam, much like Christianity used to be and would be again given the chance, and other revealed religions, desire to establish a theocracy--most of the blame for which can be laid on their power hungry, demagogic leaders.
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Humor me.

Here's a handful: Albania, Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Northern Cyprus.

You don't know that Islam means surrender?

To God, not to Sharee'ah.

So you disavow parts of the Koran?

No.

Did Mohammed not write them or did he get it wrong

The Qur'aan is the Word of Allaah, not the word of Muhammad (pbuh).

and how do you know which are authentic and which not?

All of the Qur'aan is authentic.

the Koran allows it when dealing with infidels

Allows what when dealing with infidels?

so you could be

Sure.

Can you point to any recognized, Muslim organization that does disavow Sharia and physical retribution against apostates?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Muslim_movements#North_America

Islam, much like Christianity used to be and would be again given the chance, and other revealed religions, desire to establish a theocracy

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to say that a religion 'desires' something. (Some of) the followers of a religion, maybe. But not a religion.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to say that a religion 'desires' something. (Some of) the followers of a religion, maybe. But not a religion.
I typed a funny line here, but didn't know how you would take it, so I decided just to give a quiet thank you for your contributions thus far during your time on RF.
Wishing you and your family on this happy occasion Eid Mubarak 2016!
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
I typed a funny line here, but didn't know how you would take it, so I decided just to give a quiet thank you for your contributions thus far during your time on RF.
Wishing you and your family on this happy occasion Eid Mubarak 2016!

I can do funny :) But thank you for your kind words!
 
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