People of color.

[Kfox]

You keep making incorrect inferences.
This has become unproductive.

Fair enough; perhaps I've misunderstood you. What did I say that was incorrect?

 

[Kfox]

It would be interesting to know how African Americans / Africans are referred to in other countries.

According to my understanding; in other countries, African Americans are called Black Americans, or just Americans.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If you live in a low high crime neighborhood, you will be treated different by the police than if you live in a low crime neighborhood; regardless of race. Unfortunately, black people disproportionately live in high crime neighborhoods.

And why do you think that is?

However more white people are victims of police violence (because there are so many more of them) than black people, but if you look at the media, you would think more black people get it; because that is what the media likes to report on.

Nobody claims that black people suffer the majority of police violence. The claim is that they are disproportionately targeted for police violence, receive worse treatment in the criminal justice system, and are statistically given harsher and longer sentences. These facts are well documented.

 

[Kfox]

And why do you think that is?

Because they fear for their lives in a way they do not in a low crime neighborhood.

Nobody claims that black people suffer the majority of police violence.

Actually many people do! BLM even claims many are unaware that black lives even matter!

The claim is that they are disproportionately targeted for police violence, receive worse treatment in the criminal justice system, and are statistically given harsher and longer sentences. These facts are well documented.

As I said before, treatment is different in high crime neighborhoods compared to low crime neighborhoods; regardless of race. If it were about racism, white cops would treat black people worse than black cops; yet in the neighborhoods where most blacks get worse treatment, those neighborhoods are more likely to have a higher percentage of black cops, black police chiefs, black city council members, and black people in other positions of power. So perhaps it's something else.

 

[Revoltingest]

Fair enough; perhaps I've misunderstood you. What did I say that was incorrect?

Everything, it seems.
I'll summarize.
1) I don't see blacks as currently oppressed.
2) I do see that blacks endure some injustices more than whites.
3) Blacks can be racist towards their own when becoming cops.
4) Some blacks are supremacists, but I find this uncommon.
5) Cops kill men more than women by 20 to 1. Sexism is the deadliest issue.
6) Some of my best friends are black.
7) #6 was just to bust yer chops.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because they fear for their lives in a way they do not in a low crime neighborhood.

And why do you think black people are more likely to live in high-crime neighbourhoods?

Actually many people do! BLM even claims many are unaware that black lives even matter!

I would be surprised if you could find a single source from BLM which states that they claim black people are the majority of the victims of police violence. In any case, this is not the point.

As I said before, treatment is different in high crime neighborhoods compared to low crime neighborhoods; regardless of race. If it were about racism, white cops would treat black people worse than black cops; yet in the neighborhoods where most blacks get worse treatment, those neighborhoods are more likely to have a higher percentage of black cops, black police chiefs, black city council members, and black people in other positions of power. So perhaps it's something else.

Correct. It's systemic racism.

See, systemic racism isn't the idea that lots of people of a specific race treat other people of a different race badly because they are individually racist. It's systemic. An example of this is, when studied, it's found that juries are more likely to find black defendants guilty and give them harsher sentences - even if the majority of the jurors are black. Because being black is seen as a marker of criminality, and this idea has become endemic throughout society.

It's not about individual cops being individually racist. It's about black people being generally poorer and being perceived as more criminal, leading to higher levels of policing, sentencing and arrests. Historically, black people's murders - even those at the hands of police - were less likely to be reported on or result in long-term repercussions for officers and police practices.

This is the thing BLM was about.

 

[Kfox]

Everything, it seems.
I'll summarize.
1) I don't see blacks as currently oppressed.

Fair enough. The other person I was discussing with when you joined the conversation did believe this. When you entered I thought you were defending his POV.

2) I do see that blacks endure some injustices more than whites.

Again; if all you see is what social media presents, that is understandable. Example; when George Floyd was killed, many thought this would never happen to a white man; it was done because he was black. But the reality is; cops have always been doing this, and occasionally if the person had enough drugs in their system they would die as a result. Before Floyd, this being recorded only happened to white people and when they died (Like Tony Temps or Timothy Coffman), the cops always got off; never convicted, and nobody seemed to care. But the minute it happened to a black man (Floyd) well….. nobody has to tell you what happened when George Floyd died that way. Yet most people are unaware this happened to white men as well

3) Blacks can be racist towards their own when becoming cops.

Of course that is possible, but are we supposed to believe this happens with most black cops?

4) Some blacks are supremacists, but I find this uncommon.

Supremacists against black people? Are you suggesting when blacks get in a position of power, they become white supremacists?

5) Cops kill men more than women by 20 to 1. Sexism is the deadliest issue.

So according to you, it has nothing to do with men committing more crimes than women? Really???

Some of my best friends are black

Is that supposed to add a measure of credibility to your claims?

 

[Revoltingest]

Again; if all you see is what social media presents, that is understandable. Example; when George Floyd was killed, many thought this would never happen to a white man; it was done because he was black. But the reality is; cops have always been doing this, and occasionally if the person had enough drugs in their system they would die as a result. Before Floyd, this being recorded only happened to white people and when they died (Like Tony Temps or Timothy Coffman), the cops always got off; never convicted, and nobody seemed to care. But the minute it happened to a black man (Floyd) well….. nobody has to tell you what happened when George Floyd died that way. Yet most people are unaware this happened to white men as well

I consider the statistics, not what news media present.
And so, I often correct posters here who say...
"That would never happen if he were white!"
....by posting a link showing otherwise.

Of course that is possible, but are we supposed to believe this happens with most black cops?

It appears so.
But I've not looked into whether it's few, most, or all.
If it really matters, I'll leave that research to you.

Supremacists against black people? Are you suggesting when blacks get in a position of power, they become white supremacists?

Before asking me such a question, ask yourself if I claimed that.
The answer would be no.
Racism =/= Supremacy

So according to you, it has nothing to do with men committing more crimes than women? Really???

The answer is no.
If you were to survey youtube videos of cops shooting people,
you'd discover that many men are intentionally shot while
committing no crime or posing no threat to the cop at all.
But women...I recall only one case where the cop intentionally
shot an entirely unthreatening woman (Justine Damond.
There's no video of it though
BTW, she was white, & the cop is black....& in prison for it.

Is that supposed to add a measure of credibility to your claims?

You dint quote the following statement saying that was
" ...just to bust yer chops."

You should read more carefully.
And read the entire post.
And quote the entire post.
It would save me time to respond.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Yep. They are shades

 

[Kfox]

And why do you think black people are more likely to live in high-crime neighbourhoods?

Economics. High crime neighborhoods are less expensive to live, and black people are more likely on a percentage basis to be economically oppressed. I think a destructive culture too many blacks have chosen to adopt has a lot to do with it also

I would be surprised if you could find a single source from BLM which states that they claim black people are the majority of the victims of police violence. In any case, this is not the point.

It’s not like it’s one of their guiding principles or something, It’s something many who I know who are a part of or agree with the movement claim.

Correct. It's systemic racism.

See, systemic racism isn't the idea that lots of people of a specific race treat other people of a different race badly because they are individually racist. It's systemic. An example of this is, when studied, it's found that juries are more likely to find black defendants guilty and give them harsher sentences - even if the majority of the jurors are black. Because being black is seen as a marker of criminality, and this idea has become endemic throughout society.

I disagree. The Jury system does not cause people to judge black people more harshly; that is an example of individual racists using their position as jurors to go against the original intent of the system to impose their personal biases and bigotry.
In order for there to be systemic racism, the system itself, or that specific jurisdiction must be created in such a manner that the system will remain racist no matter the person(s) holding positions within it.
In short -- If you (ImmoralFlame) were given free reign to remove all Jurors of the court and replace them with a new group of people, hand chosen by you; would said racism remain?
If removing / replacing the variables from the system, in this case the Jurors would cleanse the system of racism, then institutional racism does not exist; only individual racism. However, if you remove / replace all variables within the system with new variables known to be non-corrupt from the systems intention (in this case if you replace all Jurors with people known to not be racist), yet the system remains corrupt (racist here), then institutional racism exists.
An example of systemic racism would be the Jim Crow laws, because no matter how fair and non corrupt the bus driver was, he was still required to have black people sit in the back of the bus, because the system in place (city transit system) required he do so

It's not about individual cops being individually racist. It's about black people being generally poorer and being perceived as more criminal, leading to higher levels of policing, sentencing and arrests.

Black people as a race do commit a disproportionate amount of crime when compared to other races. According to the FBI, though approx 12% of the population, blacks commit more murders and burglaries than all races combined. The only category they are represented in proportion to their population are alcohol related offenses.

Table 21

ucr.fbi.gov

The reason police patrol black neighborhoods at a higher level is because black victims need them there.

Historically, black people's murders - even those at the hands of police - were less likely to be reported on or result in long-term repercussions for officers and police practices.

That’s because the culture of “no snitchin” or “snitches in stitches” has been adopted by too many in black communities allowing criminals to commit crimes without fear of legal consequence.
As far as black murders at the hands of the police, consider the question:
What did Tony Tempa, Timothy Coffman, and George Floyd have in common?
*They were all on a lot of drugs
*They were all handcuffed on the ground
*They all had a cop’s knee on their neck until they died

The only difference is Tony Tempa, and Timothy Coffman were white and George Floyd was black.
Another difference is when Tony Tempa and Timothy Coffman died this way, nobody cared, or noticed, and the cops were never convicted of their acts but when George Floyd died this way, the entire world blew up and the cop involved went to prison.
So I agree with you HISTORICALLY murders of blacks at the hands of police didn’t result in long-term repercussions for the officers, but today I think it is a bit of a different story.

 

[Kfox]

I consider the statistics, not what news media present.
And so, I often correct posters here who say...
"That would never happen if he were white!"
....by posting a link showing otherwise.

Great! Sounds like you are being fair.

It appears so.
But I've not looked into whether it's few, most, or all.
If it really matters, I'll leave that research to you.

Heck yeah it matters in the context of this conversation.
Remember when Freddy Gray was killed in Baltimore a few years back? The riots that erupted? They had a black police chief, a mostly black police force, a Black Mayor, a mostly black City Council, yet we’re supposed to believe his death was the result of racism? IMO to look at the death of a black man and automatically call it racism without further investigation is just lazy

The answer is no.
If you were to survey youtube videos of cops shooting people,
you'd discover that many men are intentionally shot while
committing no crime or posing no threat to the cop at all.
But women...I recall only one case where the cop intentionally
shot an entirely unthreatening woman (Justine Damond.
There's no video of it though
BTW, she was white, & the cop is black....& in prison for it.

Youtube videos? I thought you said you consider statistics rather than what social media presents. If you look at statistics, you will see men commit far more violent crimes than women.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Economics. High crime neighborhoods are less expensive to live, and black people are more likely on a percentage basis to be economically oppressed.

Correct.

I think a destructive culture too many blacks have chosen to adopt has a lot to do with it also

And why do you think blacks "choose" to adopt that culture? Again, culture is not genetic.

It’s not like it’s one of their guiding principles or something, It’s something many who I know who are a part of or agree with the movement claim.

Then can you provide a single example of them saying it? There's nothing saying that from any official BLM source that I have found.

I disagree. The Jury system does not cause people to judge black people more harshly;

I didn't say the problem was the jury system. I said the problem is systemic racism, which takes the form of black being perceived as a marker of criminality - including by black people themselves.

that is an example of individual racists using their position as jurors to go against the original intent of the system to impose their personal biases and bigotry.

I just explained that even black juries tend to be more likely to convict black defendants.

In order for there to be systemic racism, the system itself, or that specific jurisdiction must be created in such a manner that the system will remain racist no matter the person(s) holding positions within it.

False. Systemic racism isn't just when specifically racist laws are in effect - it's policies, practices or procedures that RESULT in unfair advantages/disadvantages for certain racial groups. For example, due to hundreds of years of black people living as second-class citizens, black families have significantly less hereditary wealth and social status; due to this, poorer communities tend to have higher proportions of black citizens; living in poorer areas means less access to healthcare and education, meaning black people disproportionately are negatively impacted by circumstances that make them less likely to succeed or break the cycle of poverty. It's not necessarily DESIGNED to harm black people, but the RESULT is an unfair system - even if, on paper, black and white people have the same rights.

In short -- If you (ImmoralFlame) were given free reign to remove all Jurors of the court and replace them with a new group of people, hand chosen by you; would said racism remain?

I don't think you're paying attention to what I'm writing. I made it very clear that I'm talking about systemic racism, not the jury system.

If removing / replacing the variables from the system, in this case the Jurors would cleanse the system of racism, then institutional racism does not exist; only individual racism. However, if you remove / replace all variables within the system with new variables known to be non-corrupt from the systems intention (in this case if you replace all Jurors with people known to not be racist), yet the system remains corrupt (racist here), then institutional racism exists.

That's not what institutional racism means.

An example of systemic racism would be the Jim Crow laws, because no matter how fair and non corrupt the bus driver was, he was still required to have black people sit in the back of the bus, because the system in place (city transit system) required he do so

Yes, the Jim Crow laws were systemic racism. But that doesn't mean the ONLY form systemic racism takes is explicitly racist laws. It can also includes laws and processes that are designed "race neutral" but nevertheless - either due to pre-existing social/power structures or uneven/unfair operation of those processes - RESULT IN either deepening racial inequality or preventing an advancement toward racial equality.

Consider a literal race in which white competitors are allowed to run, but black competitors have to crawl. Imagine if, after the first five minutes of the race, the black competitors complain that being made to crawl is unfair. So, halfway through the race, the officials allow the black competitors to run. Is the race now fair? On paper, it is. Both black and white people are allowed to run. Except the white people were allowed to run for half the race and black people had to crawl. Allowing both to run still doesn't give them an equal advantage to the white competitors, because the black competitors still started at a disadvantage. The rule change wasn't racist - but without an actual effort to address the disadvantage, it still results in white people having a significant advantage.

Do you understand the analogy?

Black people as a race do commit a disproportionate amount of crime when compared to other races. According to the FBI, though approx 12% of the population, blacks commit more murders and burglaries than all races combined. The only category they are represented in proportion to their population are alcohol related offenses.

Table 21

ucr.fbi.gov

The reason police patrol black neighborhoods at a higher level is because black victims need them there.

I've already acknowledged this. The question is WHY this is the case.

That’s because the culture of “no snitchin” or “snitches in stitches” has been adopted by too many in black communities allowing criminals to commit crimes without fear of legal consequence.

So you're explanation for the vast disparity in racial differences in crime rates is a vague slogan used predominantly in movies?

Are black people genetically predisposed to "give snitches stitches"?

As far as black murders at the hands of the police, consider the question:
What did Tony Tempa, Timothy Coffman, and George Floyd have in common?
*They were all on a lot of drugs
*They were all handcuffed on the ground
*They all had a cop’s knee on their neck until they die.
The only difference is Tony Tempa, and Timothy Coffman were white and George Floyd was black.
Another difference is when Tony Tempa and Timothy Coffman died this way, nobody cared, or noticed, and the cops were never convicted of their acts but when George Floyd died this way, the entire world blew up and the cop involved went to prison.

And your point is...?

There are lots of murders every day. Some grab the zeitgeist, some don't. There's a multitude of reasons why Floyd's death got the media attention it did. For one: it was very public, filmed directly as it happened with members of the public - and George himself - screaming for the police to stop, and happened during a global protest movement pushing against the disproportionate violence committed by police against black people.

Crowing about how it's unfair that he got all the attention "because he's black" is just virtue signalling. It's not a competition. You wouldn't do it if a global protest movement took up the cause of a white victim of crime, but the fact that he's black in this case suddenly means you get to pontificate on how silly everyone' being overreacting to something that they wouldn't care about if it happened to someone else. It's nonsense, and it's beneath you.

As a movement, BLM has done more to affect actual changes in policing - changes that benefits ALL PEOPLE OF ALL RACES - and enact police reform than any other movement in modern memory. I don't really care if you think the focus is disproportionately on George Floyd or that race plays a factor in that. What I care about is that there are LESS George Floyds, Tony Tempas and Timothy Coffmans. BLM have taken steps toward that. Whining about identity politics just gives more ammunition to the people who oppose reform.

So I agree with you HISTORICALLY murders of blacks at the hands of police didn’t result in long-term repercussions for the officers, but today I think it is a bit of a different story.

I agree. It's better now, thanks to movements like BLM.

 

[Revoltingest]

Great! Sounds like you are being fair.

Heck yeah it matters in the context of this conversation.
Remember when Freddy Gray was killed in Baltimore a few years back? The riots that erupted? They had a black police chief, a mostly black police force, a Black Mayor, a mostly black City Council, yet we’re supposed to believe his death was the result of racism? IMO to look at the death of a black man and automatically call it racism without further investigation is just lazy

Youtube videos? I thought you said you consider statistics rather than what social media presents. If you look at statistics, you will see men commit far more violent crimes than women.

Sometimes there aren't statistics available.
And other times statistics are bogus.
While imperfect, surveying many videos
& cases in the news, one can discern patterns.

 

[Audie]

Your ilk must be a real trouble maker at parties.
(I know, for I am in that same boat.)

Someone refers to me as a person
of colour, they will find out what
trouble is.

 

[Revoltingest]

Someone refers to me as a person
of colour, they will find out what
trouble is.

You prefer "shorty"?

 

[Audie]

ofYou prefer "shorty"?

Of course. That's just good natured
teasing, but p.o.c. has all thrse layers,
of garbage .

 

[Audie]

And why do you think black people are more likely to live in high-crime neighbourhoods?


I would be surprised if you could find a single source from BLM which states that they claim black people are the majority of the victims of police violence. In any case, this is not the point.


Correct. It's systemic racism.

See, systemic racism isn't the idea that lots of people of a specific race treat other people of a different race badly because they are individually racist. It's systemic. An example of this is, when studied, it's found that juries are more likely to find black defendants guilty and give them harsher sentences - even if the majority of the jurors are black. Because being black is seen as a marker of criminality, and this idea has become endemic throughout society.

It's not about individual cops being individually racist. It's about black people being generally poorer and being perceived as more criminal, leading to higher levels of policing, sentencing and arrests. Historically, black people's murders - even those at the hands of police - were less likely to be reported on or result in long-term repercussions for officers and police practices.

This is the thing BLM was about.

As Mark Twain noted, in order of perfidy,
theres ordinary prevarications, damn lies, and staristics.

Saying blacks get lomger sentences leaves out
any real,analysis of " why" and assumes the
chosen conclusion.

Why do you do that?

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course. That's just good natured
teasing, but p.o.c. has all thrse layers,
of garbage .

I avoid the term.
It dances around the reference "non-white",
which, as commonly used, smacks of racism.

 

[Revoltingest]

As Mark Twain noted, in order of perfidy,
theres ordinary prevarications, damn lies, and staristics.

Saying blacks get lomger sentences leaves out
any real,analysis of " why" and assumes the
chosen conclusion.

Why do you do that?

I notice that many on the left tend to see
the humans as lacking agency, ie, people
are either victims of circumstances, or
successes because of privilege.
The Obama philosophy is that those
who lack deserve what other have because
someone else gave them success.

 

[Colt]

I was having a conversation with a white person who referred to me and people like me as people/persons of color. I responded by referring to him and people like him as people/persons of color. He responded that people of color consist of only black or brown people, and I retorted white is just as much of a color as black, brown, or anything else and if he wanted to refer to black or brown people, he should use those words rather than something vague and incorrect. Upon further investigation I found out the term was originally coined by 17th century racists who wanted to distinguish white people from non whites, but fell out of favor shortly afterwords only to be brought back in the 1970’s by black and brown racists who wanted to separate white people from all the other races. Most of the people I know who use the term are not bigots or racists yet use the term coined by bigots and racists. Are these people just parroting something they’ve heard someone else use without thinking what these words actually mean? Or something else? Your thoughts?

So called Whites are actually mongrels.