• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Perceptions of Russia Before and After the Start of the War

Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022, has your perception of Russia changed?

  • Yes. From overall positively to now overall neutrally or almost neutrally.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes. From overall positively to now overall negatively.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes. From overall neutrally or almost neutrally to now overall positively.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes. From overall neutrally or almost neutrally to now overall negatively.

    Votes: 4 21.1%
  • Yes. From overall negatively to now overall positively.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes. From overall negatively to now overall neutrally or almost neutrally.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No. From overall positively to now overall positively.

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • No. From overall neutrally or almost neutrally to overall the same now.

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • No. From overall negatively to now overall negatively.

    Votes: 12 63.2%
  • Other (please clarify in the thread).

    Votes: 1 5.3%

  • Total voters
    19

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
My early impressions of Russia were forged early in life, in an atmosphere of rigid anti-communist Cold War attitudes, but also openly challenged by defiant anti-war attitudes, coupled with support of civil rights, gender equality, and a reaction against anti-communism one might call "anti-anti-communism." I wouldn't say it was communist, in and of itself, but there were those who were against the intransigent, intolerant attitudes exhibited by anti-communists, who were seen as going way too far and operating without any scruples or sense of restraint. McCarthyism was just one aspect, although by the time I became aware, McCarthy had already been thoroughly discredited. Popular culture created many examples and caricatures, such as Archie Bunker or Frank Burns from M*A*S*H, who were portrayed as bigoted, chauvinistic, intolerant, and militaristic. I also encountered quite a number in real life, in my own family, as well as others who were seemingly influenced by the John Birch way of thinking.

In other words, my first impressions of Russia were formed by other Americans telling me about Russia, America, our history, the outside world and our role in it. This triggered a sense of curiosity within me that compelled me to start learning more about Russia. When I had to choose a foreign language to study, I chose Russian. My first Russian teacher was of Russian descent, but his parents immigrated to the U.S. around the time of the Russian Revolution, so he was virulently anti-Soviet and anti-communist. He was pretty well-versed in history and current events, and we had many interesting discussions. His views of the Soviets were similar to those of typical American conservatives, yet he also would get irritated and sensitive to any jokes, mocking, or pejorative remarks about Russians in general. He also didn't like hearing any Polish jokes either, as those were pretty widespread back in those days.

The funny thing was, back in the 70s, it appeared the anti-anti-communist viewpoint was more accepted, as we had Detente with the Soviet Union and warming relations with Red China. The Cold War was in a state of thaw. The US attitude had softened somewhat since the McCarthy days, and the Soviets were also long past their brutal Stalinist era. Things were changing, and people were questioning whether taking such a hardlined stance against the Soviets was the right approach. But then, Reagan came in like gangbusters - like something out of a 1950s b-movie. Reagan was like some hybrid clone - a merging of Al Capone, General Jack D. Ripper, and Joe McCarthy all rolled into one. Reagan thought Russia was an "evil empire," and there were fears of Reagan possibly being some kind of nuclear warmonger. He was basically a far less intelligent version of Nixon.

Another key event which was kind of an eye-opener for me was the 1979 overthrow of the Shah in Iran and the subsequent takeover of the US embassy and the ensuing hostage crisis. It was all over the news, and much of the country was riveted. Prior to that, I had never heard that the US installed the Shah and helped set up and train his secret police force. I wondered, "Why would we do that? We're Americans. We're supposed to be for truth, justice, freedom, liberty..."

When I learned more and more about some of the lesser-known activities and positions held by our government, I began to wonder about how much truthful information they were telling us about the world, which included common perceptions of Russia and the Soviet Union. I also started to look more and more at the other side, and they, too, had their own point of view about us. I remember hearing Alexandr Solzhenitsyn making a speech to Americans and basically saying "Americans have no souls." I kind of understood where he was coming from (I used to be more religious back in those days).

I visited there during the 1980s, during the Gorbachev era. This also included visits to the Piskaryovskoye Memorial Cemetery in Leningrad and the Mamayev Kurgan in Volgograd. I talked to people who lived through the horrors of WW2, something that most Americans had no conception of or understanding. There were WW2 monuments all over the place, and I would also see countless elderly gentlemen wearing all their war medals on their jackets as they walked down the street. They served their country heroically in the Red Army to fend off the fascist invasion. I respected that. They're really good chess players, too. And they're much better at math than I ever was.

As with anything, you get the good and the bad. Go to any place in the world, and you'll find your share of nice people, as well as the usual quota of jerks and nimrods.

One thing that also struck me, as an American, was that both my country and their country were two major superpowers at the head of two major alliances. The Cold War was like a giant chess game, involving the movement and deployment of strategic forces, monitoring troops movements, surveillance of communications, codebreaking, spying - which included internal security directed at their own people. As adversaries, we shared much in common with each other.

Above all else, I realized that I had no right to pass judgement on them in any way, but by the same token, I didn't see where they had any right to pass judgement on America. Even if they were right about some things. Many of the things Americans and others say about Russia are true, as they also have their historical dark side just as any country might have.

After the fall of the Berlin Wall, I thought we would be entering a new era, which it was. I saw Gorbachev as a reformer who took a more conciliatory view towards the West, and all in all, there was a strong sense of just wanting the whole madness to end. WW2 was long past. Stalin and Khrushchev and other hardliners were gone. There was no longer any reason to have an "Iron Curtain" anymore. Within the Soviet Union, things were loosening up and the society was starting to become more open and free. It was a hopeful time.

What took me by surprise was in 1991, a group of hardline Soviets staged a coup, arrested and confined Gorbachev, then seized power. They immediately sent forces to the Baltics, who had just exercised their right to secede under the Soviet Constitution. Back in Moscow, throngs of protesters marched and rallied around Boris Yeltsin, while Gorbachev's status was still unknown. They weren't shouting for Gorbachev; they didn't like him anymore. So, even after the coup abruptly ended and the hardliners thrown out, Gorbachev was also out, and Yeltsin was in.

My impression of Russia during those years was probably one more of heartfelt sympathy. I really felt bad for them. They were going through incredibly rough times during the 1990s. The USSR had practically zero street crime and in general, one was quite safe walking down the street late at night. But in the 90s, crime skyrocketed. There was a sense of disorder in the country. Sex trafficking was another major problem, not just in Russia, but in other Eastern European countries. It was the kind of atmosphere where vultures tend to congregate. Even the government was in disarray. I recall an incident where a local power cooperative in Russia cut off the power for the local naval base - because they hadn't paid their bill. The naval base sent over a team of Spetsnaz commandos over to the power plant and forced them at gunpoint to restore the power. Another image that struck me was that of an aged pensioner, foraging for food in a city dump.

It seemed at that time as if the whole country had just hit rock bottom. Meanwhile, the mood in the U.S. seemed that of gloating, kind of like high schoolers after their football team won the big game against their arch rival. That may be symbolic of a difference between us. The Russians might see it as a game of chess, while Americans think everything is a football game.

On the world stage, the U.S. had more of a free hand to impose its will upon the world. The Soviets weren't around to muck things up in that regard. The Russians weren't really in much of a position to do anything, although after Yeltsin was out, it seemed clear that a power struggle was afoot, and Putin ultimately wound up in the top spot. I didn't really know what to make of him at first, but I could see that things were beginning to become more orderly. It was no longer the chaos and lawlessness of the 1990s and early 2000s. I'm also somewhat astounded by the resurgence of Russian Orthodoxy in recent times, although considering their history and circumstances, I guess it's not too surprising. There's always been a certain philosophical and devoutly religious facet of their history and culture.

As for this current crisis, including the invasion of Crimea in 2014, to be honest, I'm not sure what went wrong. As far as what is reported in the media, it looks like Putin has just gone mad or something. But it seems there are quite a few pieces missing to this puzzle. I learned during the Cold War that neither government, neither side really told the real truth, as it was often hidden in a lot of rhetoric and propaganda. The truth doesn't really come that easily. But all in all, it seems it was an incredible blunder on Putin's part. Is he really that stupid, or was there something else going on behind the scenes that caused him to do this?

It doesn't really change my overall perceptions of Russia. I don't necessarily associate the people with the government. I do feel disheartened by what appears to be a new cold war we're in. Russia is again being targeted as an "enemy nation," and the mentality in the West is becoming more and more along the lines of "those who are not with us are against us."

I understand all you say and get your point of view. Now try understanding it as say from the point of view of say one of the Baltic states.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Trump is not quite there yet, and may never be. For all its serious flaws, the USA are not structured to receive that discourse all that willingly.
I was juat telling my friends last night I take solice in the fact we are the selfish, individualistic ******** of the world. I don't think it could last long because lots of people here don't like being told what to do or how to think.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I understand all you say and get your point of view. Now try understanding it as say from the point of view of say one of the Baltic states.

I had a professor who was living in Latvia at the time of the Russian annexation in 1940, and was still there when the Germans invaded in 1941. He didn't really talk much about it. He wasn't really against talking about it, although he seemed to relate the idea that too much happened, and he didn't really want to get into it. I respected that. I also understand that the Baltic states suffered a lot during those times. He kind of summed it up as "a bunch of crazy people going around with guns." I found that to be a very apt description of what war actually amounts to.

The Baltic states were in an unfortunate geographical position of being between two heavyweights who wanted to go to war with each other.

It seems that in recent times, they've chosen to side with the heavyweight they think will give them a better deal, which is the smart play. From their point of view, if I was in their shoes, I would side with the US against Russia, too. But my point is that there doesn't have to be a situation where the US is against Russia. There was never any need for any of this, and this didn't have to happen.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
As a product of the Cold War I've basically never had a good opinion of Russia. At first it was just the spoonfed anti-Russian propaganda, and it got to be instilled enough I first thought Russia attacked on 9/11 when I first heard of it and it's still psychological that "proper villians" in the movies should have a Russian accent.
But learning better my opinion didn't change much. I learned Russia has a very rich history and have contributed a great deal to the arts, but the Tsarist oppressions never really went away. Amd then Putin would begin what I do believe to be a rebuilding of Soviet Union.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I had a professor who was living in Latvia at the time of the Russian annexation in 1940, and was still there when the Germans invaded in 1941. He didn't really talk much about it. He wasn't really against talking about it, although he seemed to relate the idea that too much happened, and he didn't really want to get into it. I respected that. I also understand that the Baltic states suffered a lot during those times. He kind of summed it up as "a bunch of crazy people going around with guns." I found that to be a very apt description of what war actually amounts to.

The Baltic states were in an unfortunate geographical position of being between two heavyweights who wanted to go to war with each other.

It seems that in recent times, they've chosen to side with the heavyweight they think will give them a better deal, which is the smart play. From their point of view, if I was in their shoes, I would side with the US against Russia, too. But my point is that there doesn't have to be a situation where the US is against Russia. There was never any need for any of this, and this didn't have to happen.

Well, I will be honest. In the news stories I have heard in my bubble of the world, it seems Putin wants to enlarge the reach of Russia to the former Warasaw Pact area. In some versions of how that can happen he becomes the enemy of some countries. That could include the USA.

Now understand me correct. This is not about true or false. It is about different worldviews.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
"I have received letters in America from highly intelligent persons, maybe a teacher in a faraway small college who could do much for the renewal and salvation of his country, but his country cannot hear him because the media are not interested in him. This gives birth to strong mass prejudices, to blindness, which is most dangerous in our dynamic era. There is, for instance, a self-deluding interpretation of the contemporary world situation. It works as a sort of a petrified armor around people's minds. Human voices from 17 countries of Eastern Europe and Eastern Asia cannot pierce it. It will only be broken by the pitiless crowbar of events...

Therefore, if our society were to be transformed into yours, it would mean an improvement in certain aspects, but also a change for the worse on some particularly significant scores. It is true, no doubt, that a society cannot remain in an abyss of lawlessness, as is the case in our country. But it is also demeaning for it to elect such mechanical legalistic smoothness as you have. After the suffering of many years of violence and oppression, the human soul longs for things higher, warmer, and purer than those offered by today's mass living habits, introduced by the revolting invasion of publicity, by TV stupor, and by intolerable music."

- Aleksander Solzhenitsyn on the disconnect between Russia and the West. Not sure much has changed since 1974
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
With me, it's "No. From overall negatively to now overall negatively." By now, we should well know what Putin is like and what he wants to recreate.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
This thread is based on the same premise of gauging whether anyone's perceptions have changed that my other recent thread is based on.

I'm interested to know whether opinions on Russia—not on every individual Russian, but on the country as a geopolitical and military unit—have changed among any members here since the start of the war in 2022, and if so, how.

The poll is anonymous. I also couldn't fit more options into the poll because I used the maximum number of possible responses, so I consolidated the responses where the overall sentiment before and after the start of the war is the same (i.e., still overall positive, overall neutral, or overall negative) into one instead of dividing each into "Positively before and more/less positively now," "Negatively before and more/less negatively now," etc.
What has surprised me most is how much mythology there is wrapped up in the Putinist view of Russia. Everything and anything is taken as proof of Russia’s greatness, Russia’s mission to save the world, Russia as liberator, not coloniser, and so on. It’s a view of history based on a reworking and curated presentation of every major event of related history and major figure to paint a picture that wholly and exclusively supports an artificially inflated sense of Russia as the world’s saviour. Understanding the prevalence of mythology in actual Russian political and cultural discourse makes it easier to understand how they can sell any idea to the people at large, no matter how bizarre it might seem externally. Coupled with brutal repression of any dissent, accelerated since the beginning of the conflict, the reliance on myth is creating a society deeply indoctrinated into an alternative reality, pretty much like the Soviet period but with a change of furniture and a new paint job. Not communist, but almost equally controlling. God knows what it will lead to, eventually. Russians who understand what is really going on have mostly either left the country, are dead or in jail, keep their views to themselves or are too old for anyone to bother with.
 
Last edited:

Tomef

Well-Known Member
"I have received letters in America from highly intelligent persons, maybe a teacher in a faraway small college who could do much for the renewal and salvation of his country, but his country cannot hear him because the media are not interested in him. This gives birth to strong mass prejudices, to blindness, which is most dangerous in our dynamic era. There is, for instance, a self-deluding interpretation of the contemporary world situation. It works as a sort of a petrified armor around people's minds. Human voices from 17 countries of Eastern Europe and Eastern Asia cannot pierce it. It will only be broken by the pitiless crowbar of events...

Therefore, if our society were to be transformed into yours, it would mean an improvement in certain aspects, but also a change for the worse on some particularly significant scores. It is true, no doubt, that a society cannot remain in an abyss of lawlessness, as is the case in our country. But it is also demeaning for it to elect such mechanical legalistic smoothness as you have. After the suffering of many years of violence and oppression, the human soul longs for things higher, warmer, and purer than those offered by today's mass living habits, introduced by the revolting invasion of publicity, by TV stupor, and by intolerable music."

- Aleksander Solzhenitsyn on the disconnect between Russia and the West. Not sure much has changed since 1974
‘Intolerable music’ lol. From anyone else it would be taken as the complaint of a moany old dodderer. Strange how the Soviet dissident can still have a kind of magical aura, making words appear more insightful than they actually are. He has a point, sure, but condensing the West down to some George Romero movie scene just shows he never understood that there’s more to freedom than TV dinners and zombie supermarkets. Hardly surprising, dissident or not, his thinking was shaped largely by Soviet propaganda about the West.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
‘Intolerable music’ lol. From anyone else it would be taken as the complaint of a moany old dodderer. Strange how the Soviet dissident can still have a kind of magical aura, making words appear more insightful than they actually are. He has a point, sure, but condensing the West down to some George Romero movie scene just shows he never understood that there’s more to freedom than TV dinners and zombie supermarkets. Hardly surprising, dissident or not, his thinking was shaped largely by Soviet propaganda about the West.


Ha, yeah, guess the old boy didn’t like rock n roll so much. While many people, me included , think popular music is America’s greatest export.

All of us are prone to thinking that is shaped by the culture we grew up in. And the West has always been as well versed in propaganda as the Soviet Union was.
 
Top