Perfect symmetry by chance???

[George-ananda]

Ahem.....there are materialists that don't have a problem with intent being involved but still consider the spawning of life to be a somewhat drawn out process.

I also see a drawn out process but aided by nature beings/spirits fostering life and advancement.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If these were some paintings on a wall and if someone argues that these paintings doesn't have a designer and that the perfect symmetry in those pictures came out by chance by throwing random paints on wall for millions of years, would you believe it????

Kinda loses it over time. Withers, and disintegrates. Look at fractal geometry.

Plus, while good as metaphors, paints are not organic.

Sounds like your a Mason. '0)

 

[Twilight Hue]

So do you think that if these were paintings on a wall, there is no intelligent designer needed for it and that it could have come up by chance??

Is that how flowers came about? Thrown Paint?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You are right that any mathematical argument is beyond me. I am just using my intuition and common sense thinking. I think even the great atheist Antony Flew became convinced of the argument for conscious design from his study of DNA. Certainly, the more certain argument from design for me comes from the teachings and experiences of those who I believe can experience and perceive beyond the familiar physical level.

And call to authority is hardly what I'd call common sense and intuition. After all, the vast majoroty of biologists reject intelligent design despite doing the same or even more complicated research. And dozens and dozens of Nobel prize winning scientists weighed in on the dover trial against it. More importantly it was pretty clearly ruled not supported by science during that time.

 

[George-ananda]

And call to authority is hardly what I'd call common sense and intuition. After all, the vast majoroty of biologists reject intelligent design despite doing the same or even more complicated research. And dozens and dozens of Nobel prize winning scientists weighed in on the dover trial against it. More importantly it was pretty clearly ruled not supported by science during that time.

Sounds like you are more the one doing the call to authority. Abiogenesis and the creation of DNA is certainly still a mystery.

 

[Demonslayer]

And speaking of an intelligent designer. How about the human body. For all its great attributes the designer made some god-awful blunders, such as putting the openings for the trachea and the esophagus right next to each other. Sure there's the epiglottis that covers the opening to the larynx whenever you swallow, but sometimes the epiglottis just isn’t fast enough. Choke! Choke! And how about our spine, which is ill-suited for bipedalism, and far better suited for going on all fours. Or the much too narrow pelvis in women. Why make giving birth such an excruciating painful ordeal when it doesn't have to be? And why are our genitals so close to our rectum? As has been said, If God was a city planner he'd be putting playgrounds next to sewage systems.

Don't forget how the not-so-intelligent designer put the male urethra through, instead of around, the prostate gland, ensuring all His beloved male creations dribble pee in their later years.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Symmetry and patterns are not at all uncommon in nature and they can be found, literally, in objects that predate the formation of our planet... There is nothing supernatural about them.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div689/spin-082114.cfm

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107143909.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_orbital

http://berrygroup.uchicago.edu/papers/288.pdf

http://www.iflscience.com/space/crystal-forbidden-symmetry-found-45-billion-year-old-meteorite/


I would direct anyone who believes that "pretty things" necessitate a "Designer" to spend some time learning about Apophenia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

 

[Skwim]

Don't forget how the not-so-intelligent designer put the male urethra through, instead of around, the prostate gland, ensuring all His beloved male creations dribble pee in their later years.

Ah yes, old age, almost makes one want to skip it.


.

 

[rusra02]

Getting back to the painting of a flower, no reasonable person would assume such a painting occurred by "natural" processes. How much less so when such high orders of mathematics can be discerned in living plants.

 

[Willamena]

Is symmetry by chance any more surprising than disproportion by chance?

 

[Demonslayer]

Getting back to the painting of a flower, no reasonable person would assume such a painting occurred by "natural" processes. How much less so when such high orders of mathematics can be discerned in living plants.

Do you think God constructs each and every snowflake with a kit like those ship-in-the-bottle builders use?

I mean we can directly see crystallization and the complex, symmetrical patterns created by the very natural process.


Snowflakes are symmetrical because they reflect the internal order of the water molecules as they arrange themselves in the solid state (the process of crystallization). Water molecules in the solid state, such as in ice and snow, form weak bonds (called hydrogen bonds) to one another. These ordered arrangements result in the basic symmetrical, hexagonal shape of the snowflake. In reality, there are many different types of snowflakes (as in the clich that 'no two snowflakes are alike'); this differentiation occurs because each snowflake is a separate crystal that is subject to the specific atmospheric conditions, notably temperature and humidity, under which it is formed.
The second question has to do with the way in which snowflakes are formed. The growth of snowflakes (or of any substance changing from a liquid to a solid state) is known as crystallization. During this process, the molecules (in this case, water molecules) align themselves to maximize attractive forces and minimize repulsive ones. As a result, the water molecules arrange themselves in predetermined spaces and in a specific arrangement. This process is much like tiling a floor in accordance with a specific pattern: once the pattern is chosen and the first tiles are placed, then all the other tiles must go in predetermined spaces in order to maintain the pattern of symmetry. Water molecules simply arrange themselves to fit the spaces and maintain symmetry; in this way, the different arms of the snowflake are formed.

 

[rusra02]

Do you think God constructs each and every snowflake with a kit like those ship-in-the-bottle builders use?

I mean we can directly see crystallization and the complex, symmetrical patterns created by the very natural process.


Snowflakes are symmetrical because they reflect the internal order of the water molecules as they arrange themselves in the solid state (the process of crystallization). Water molecules in the solid state, such as in ice and snow, form weak bonds (called hydrogen bonds) to one another. These ordered arrangements result in the basic symmetrical, hexagonal shape of the snowflake. In reality, there are many different types of snowflakes (as in the clich that 'no two snowflakes are alike'); this differentiation occurs because each snowflake is a separate crystal that is subject to the specific atmospheric conditions, notably temperature and humidity, under which it is formed.
The second question has to do with the way in which snowflakes are formed. The growth of snowflakes (or of any substance changing from a liquid to a solid state) is known as crystallization. During this process, the molecules (in this case, water molecules) align themselves to maximize attractive forces and minimize repulsive ones. As a result, the water molecules arrange themselves in predetermined spaces and in a specific arrangement. This process is much like tiling a floor in accordance with a specific pattern: once the pattern is chosen and the first tiles are placed, then all the other tiles must go in predetermined spaces in order to maintain the pattern of symmetry. Water molecules simply arrange themselves to fit the spaces and maintain symmetry; in this way, the different arms of the snowflake are formed.

No, I think God put the natural laws and processes in place to produce the stunning beauty and complexity in snowflakes, and sustains those processes.

 

[Pudding]

If these were some paintings on a wall and if someone argues that these paintings doesn't have a designer and that the perfect symmetry in those pictures came out by chance by throwing random paints on wall for millions of years, would you believe it????

I will accept the opinion that "perfect symmetry appear by chance" as one option as in how perfect symmetry comes to appear.

Option 2: There is designer who design those perfect symmetry to make them appear as so.

Option 3: I don't know if it's needed or not to have a designer in order to make those perfect symmetry appear in the world, if there is any designer who responsible for those things, please come out to testify their being responsible for the act, until then i'll satisfy with saying i don't know rather than making speculation with the things i cannot verify.

I'm open to the possibility that option 1 or 2 could be right but i don't have active nor strong beliefs about them being true, because i haven't been convince to pick any side from them yet. My current position is option 3.

 

[Pudding]

The Argument of Designer is unconvincing when combine with the rule that the first designer (God) don't need to have a designer to design him, he simply exist...

Everything can't simply exist without a designer to design them into existence except God. Why? Because God is powerful enough to exempt from that rule, because it's how God comes to be, because God say so?
Wants to convince people to believe those claims is true?
Prove it, otherwise it's speculation or personal beliefs base from subjective experience. If people found those proof to be unconvincing they continue to don't believe those claims.

 

[Demonslayer]

No, I think God put the natural laws and processes in place to produce the stunning beauty and complexity in snowflakes, and sustains those processes.

Fair enough, but your idea acknowledges that there are natural laws and processes that create complex, symmetrical designs in nature. The crystallization process can be our example.

The original post suggests each flower/snowflake is like a painting. The OP says when we see a painting of a flower/snowflake, we know that painting had a creator because it is complex and symmetrical, and after all paintings don't just "pop up." This idea would suggest each and every flower/snowflake in existence was directly created by God, the way a painter must physically paint each individual painting even if he paints 100,000 flower paintings. If we are to believe the premise put forth by the OP, it would suggest each and every. snowflake was manually assembled by God.

You've stepped one step away from that idea to say God created a natural law or process that can create snowflakes...relieving God of the need to physically/manually create each snowflake. The millions and trillions of snowflakes, therefore, are created independently of God, and are part of a natural law or process that causes the beautiful complex symmetry that we see. Now perhaps the painter painted the first flower/snowflake painting, but has a printing press cranking out the millions of copies.

So we agree that there is a natural law or set of natural laws or processes that regularly create beautiful, complex, symmetrical things, and that God is not manually creating each one. So in this sense, we both disagree with the OP.

Saying "God created" those natural laws seems arbitrary, however. If these natural laws exist, isn't it just supposition that the God you happen to believe in was the one that "created" these laws? Maybe Satan created the laws, or Horton, or STEVE. Or the laws are truly natural. How do we make the leap from "there are natural laws and processes" to "the natural laws and process were created by X thing?"

 

[Demonslayer]

Everything can't simply exist without a designer to design them into existence except God. Why?

Imma go with "mysterious ways."

 

[Skwim]

No, I think God put the natural laws and processes in place to produce the stunning beauty and complexity in snowflakes, and sustains those processes.

Fine, if god set the natural laws and processes in motion and sustains them, then this has to also include all the catastrophic events that take place, such as floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.. Stuff not so stunning in their "beauty." Gotta say, this god of yours is one strange fellow.


.

 

[Ouroboros]

If these were some paintings on a wall and if someone argues that these paintings doesn't have a designer and that the perfect symmetry in those pictures came out by chance by throwing random paints on wall for millions of years, would you believe it????

No. It's mathematical. Math represents perfection of patterns in nature. It's natural.

Perfection is natural in itself, how else could God ever be perfect? If God is perfect him/her/itself, who then created God's perfection, unless perfect is God's nature. Perfection must then be un-created and eternal. So to show perfection of nature to prove that God created perfection is to say that perfection is unnatural in itself, but then God would be also imperfect, which he/she/it can't be. In other words, again, perfection is eternal and not created.

 

[Demonslayer]

Fine, if god set the natural laws and processes in motion and sustains them, then this has to also include all the catastrophic events that take place, such as floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.. Stuff not so stunning in their "beauty."

Even going back to just the question of "perfect symmetry" for a second, there are far, far more examples of non-symmetry than there are of symmetry. Human beings are not symmetrical. Eyes, breasts and feet are different sizes, ears are at different heights, one leg is normally longer than the other...sometimes significantly, most people are far more skilled with one hand than they are the other, etc.

If the symmetry of a sunflower is supposedly evidence of a talented creator, what of Marty Feldman's eyes or Michael Berryman's face??

 

[Onyx]

I just threw a bunch of paint on the wall and this is what I ended up with