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Perfect symmetry by chance???

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Fine, if god set the natural laws and processes in motion and sustains them, then this has to also include all the catastrophic events that take place, such as floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.. Stuff not so stunning in their "beauty." Gotta say, this god of yours is one strange fellow.
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Yes, many wonder why natural disasters occur that cause suffering and death. The larger question is why God allows suffering at all. Certainly if we could end such suffering, we would. The only way to know those answers is if God would reveal them. I believe he has, in the Bible.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
No. It's mathematical. Math represents perfection of patterns in nature. It's natural.

Well, there are the exceptions, such as irrational numbers like ........................................................a relationship that holds true throughout all of nature.
pi-day-pie.jpg

Gotta wonder why god didn't simply make it 3, or at least a rational number. But maybe it's one of those things so formidable that even god can't overcome it. Could mathematics be more powerful than god?


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Skwim

Veteran Member
Yes, many wonder why natural disasters occur that cause suffering and death. The larger question is why God allows suffering at all. Certainly if we could end such suffering, we would. The only way to know those answers is if God would reveal them. I believe he has, in the Bible.
So what's the answer?

God set the natural laws and processes such as floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc in motion because________________________________________________ . And, hey, some don't result in any "suffering and all."


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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Well, there are the exceptions, such as irrational numbers like ........................................................a relationship that holds true throughout all of nature.

True. But pi is built from underlying patterns, like being the sum of different infinite series. Just because it looks irrational to our eyes, it doesn't mean that the underlying principle of it is irrational. If it was, we wouldn't even be able to deduce what the number it would start with. It's not purely random.
Gotta wonder why god didn't simply make it 3, or at least a rational number. But maybe it's one of those things so formidable that even god can't overcome it. Could mathematics be more powerful than god?
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Exactly. If pi was created, then why didn't God make it rational?

The order of things are just natural. Just like God would be naturally ordered as well. The true "God" of all things is God's nature (math, order, laws of nature...), not God as an entity.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
True. But pi is built from underlying patterns, like being the sum of different infinite series.
Underlying patterns? Exactly what is are these underlying patterns upon which pi is built?

Just because it looks irrational to our eyes, it doesn't mean that the underlying principle of it is irrational.
Are you saying that pi doesn't conform to the definition of mathematical irrationality? And now there's some "underlying principle" of pi that isn't irrational. Okay, what is this underlying principle that's so rational?


If it was, we wouldn't even be able to deduce what the number it would start with.
Whaaat? Please explain.


It's not purely random.
So what?



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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sounds like you are more the one doing the call to authority. Abiogenesis and the creation of DNA is certainly still a mystery.
I was illustrating how silly it would be to say 'x smart scientist became a creationist' to give credence to creationism when the vast, vast majority of smart scientists, especially in the biological field, are not and rejected creationism publicly through reasoned and judged scientific debate.

Sure, there are lots of unknowns. But I'm no 'gods of gaps' fan, either.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Something I have noticed. People who compare evolutionary process to randomly throwing paint always turn out to know very little about the science.
Tom
And art. It's probably way harder to capture the fractals in art without computer aids than nature needs to just say "forward 1, right 2 degrees, forward 1, right 2 degrees", etc. :)

Some of the most realistic paintings of yesteryear were also accomplished via primitive "cameras", where the painter had to make a pinhole lens and then essentially traced complex fabric patterns on the painting ...

Abiogenesis and the creation of DNA is certainly still a mystery.
Is it?

Chemicals become amino acids.
Amino acids become genetic fragments.
Fragments become RNA.
RNA becomes DNA.
Etc, etc...

Certainly if we could end such suffering, we would. The only way to know those answers is if God would reveal them. I believe he has, in the Bible.
He has building codes in the bible that can withstand natural disasters? If so, why aren't our buildings following them?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So what's the answer?

God set the natural laws and processes such as floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc in motion because________________________________________________ . And, hey, some don't result in any "suffering and all."


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Since Adam and Eve rejected God's rulership, the majority of their descendants have also, preferring to manage themselves and the earth with no direction from the Creator. (Psalm 2:2) I believe Jehovah respects their free will and has allowed mankind opportunity to experience the results of their rebellion. In turn, mankind should not rightly expect Jehovah to shield them from the natural forces that God has the ability to control, or prevent the harm they cause themselves through ignorance, hatred, and greed. So while he does not cause natural disasters, IMO, God does not at present miraculously prevent them. I believe God has allowed a very limited time for man's abortive attempt at defying His Sovereignty. Soon, under his Kingdom rule, earths natural forces will be controlled by God to mankind's good.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Underlying patterns? Exactly what is are these underlying patterns upon which pi is built?

Are you saying that pi doesn't conform to the definition of mathematical irrationality? And now there's some "underlying principle" of pi that isn't irrational. Okay, what is this underlying principle that's so rational?

Whaaat? Please explain.

So what?


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I think you're missing the point.

Pi can be formed by algorithms. Algorithms are patterns of steps.

For instance the sum for n=0 to inf of (-1)^n / (2n+1) is pi/4.

Or are you saying that pi is an arbitrary number without being established in an algorithm?

Or are you saying that an algorithm isn't a pattern?

Or are you saying that the algorithm isn't an underlying fact or truth about what pi is?

Even irrational numbers have rational explanations. The "irrational" part of the phrase doesn't apply to how it's retrieved. Only that it can't be represented as a rational, i.e. a division of two whole numbers.

The question to this thread is, "perfect symmetry by chance." Now, is pi a perfect symmetry in relation to the circle or is it by chance?
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Since Adam and Eve rejected God's rulership, the majority of their descendants have also, preferring to manage themselves and the earth with no direction from the Creator. (Psalm 2:2) I believe Jehovah respects their free will and has allowed mankind opportunity to experience the results of their rebellion. In turn, mankind should not rightly expect Jehovah to shield them from the natural forces that God has the ability to control, or prevent the harm they cause themselves through ignorance, hatred, and greed. So while he does not cause natural disasters, IMO, God does not at present miraculously prevent them. I believe God has allowed a very limited time for man's abortive attempt at defying His Sovereignty. Soon, under his Kingdom rule, earths natural forces will be controlled by God to mankind's good.
*sigh* The subject IS NOT man's supposed rebellion and the dangers god lets him face---a totally irrelevant issue---BUT the fact that the natural laws and processes you say god put in place to produce stunning beauty and complexity also produce all the not so stunningly beautiful catastrophic events that take place, such as floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.. Of course it's your choice to wear blinders and adopt such a myopic view of your god, but it's hardly admirable. So you might want to temper your admiration for god with a dose of reality.

Hundreds of thousands of sea creatures washing ashore in Chili
1_229082.jpg
a result of El Nino, ain't so pretty.


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rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
*sigh* The subject IS NOT man's supposed rebellion and the dangers god lets him face---a totally irrelevant issue---BUT the fact that the natural laws and processes you say god put in place to produce stunning beauty and complexity also produce all the not so stunningly beautiful catastrophic events that take place, such as floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.. Of course it's your choice to wear blinders and adopt such a myopic view of your god, but it's hardly admirable. So you might want to temper your admiration for god with a dose of reality.

Hundreds of thousands of sea creatures washing ashore in Chili
1_229082.jpg
a result of El Nino, ain't so pretty.


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What you consider irrelevant our Creator considers of primary importance, IMO. Time and future events will tell which of us is correct. (Ezekiel 38:23)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, there are the exceptions, such as irrational numbers like ........................................................a relationship that holds true throughout all of nature.
pi-day-pie.jpg

Gotta wonder why god didn't simply make it 3, or at least a rational number. But maybe it's one of those things so formidable that even god can't overcome it. Could mathematics be more powerful than god?


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It's not 3?!
But doesn't the Bible indicate it's three in 1st Kings 7:23 and 2nd Chronicals 4:2?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Since Adam and Eve rejected God's rulership, the majority of their descendants have also, preferring to manage themselves and the earth with no direction from the Creator. (Psalm 2:2)
Other than being told to multiply and not eat some fruit, I don't see much direction coming from God PRIOR to them misbehaving. I dislike micromanaging, but not checking up on your people at all is just asking for trouble.

I believe God has allowed a very limited time for man's abortive attempt at defying His Sovereignty. Soon, under his Kingdom rule, earths natural forces will be controlled by God to mankind's good.
Maybe they're rebelling because of poor management issues? Even a dog will get angry at an owner who forgets to feed them...
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
It's not 3?!
But doesn't the Bible indicate it's three in 1st Kings 7:23 and 2nd Chronicals 4:2?
Yes, but we don't talk about such things in Christian company.

tumblr_static_70umgzy1x8g04kocc0wcccs4o_640_v2.jpg


It kind of upsets them.


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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think even the great atheist Antony Flew became convinced of the argument for conscious design from his study of DNA.
Antony Flew, while suffering from cognitive decline at the end of his life, was convinced to lend his name to a book he acknowledged that he didn't have any involvement in writing.

I've pointed this out to you before. It's disgusting - and IMO dishonest - that you keep on making the same claims about him.

Pretending that an old man's senility is support for your position? You should be ashamed of yourself.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Other than being told to multiply and not eat some fruit, I don't see much direction coming from God PRIOR to them misbehaving. I dislike micromanaging, but not checking up on your people at all is just asking for trouble.


Maybe they're rebelling because of poor management issues? Even a dog will get angry at an owner who forgets to feed them...
I believe Adam and Eve were placed in a safe and stunningly beautiful garden, with the prospect of filling the earth with their happy, healthy descendants, and extending the boundaries of their garden home earth wide. They had received God's blessing and could still be alive had they obeyed God. By choosing to rebel, they instead came under the control of Satan. Since then, it has been Satan mismanaging the world, not God, IMO. (1 John 5:19)
 
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