Phelps Verdict

[doppelganger]

I like the way you think MdmSzdWhtGuy. All to often people think that freedom of speech means that you can say whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want and nobody can do anything about it. The principle of consequences for your actions and words needs to be upheld every time.

Righto. There are lots of other freedoms and rights that also need to be protected, including the right to privacy and the freedom to mourn the loss of a loved one in war without having the funeral disrupted by protestors trying to turn your loss into a media circus for their gain.

Your rights end where they interfere with my rights and vice-verse. This is one place where the law steps in to try to provide rules for resolving such situations (the other is where the actions of the government interfere with our rights). Knowing just where that line should be drawn is not always obvious or clear to everyone.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Knowing just where that line should be drawn is not always obvious or clear to everyone.

Which is why we need lawyers.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Which is why we need lawyers.

Thank you, thank you very much, be sure to tip your wait staff and bartenders, I'll be here all week.

B.

 

[doppelganger]

Which is why we need lawyers.

Not that they know either (or even care). . . But they do have a developed talent for line moving.

Phelps is also a lawyer, BTW.

 

[w00t]

I disagree. He has the freedom to say whatever he wants, which is good, but he is not free to avoid all consequences of what he says and does, which is also good. If he does outrageous things like this, and is sued for it, and a jury sees it the way most of us here seem to, then he will end up bankrupted, which is also a good thing.

I would not wish to reduce our rights any more than they have already been reduced over the years, and it is important to protect the rights of the worst of us to ensure the rights of the rest of us. . . but allowing a civil suit against Phelps and Co. is a nice check and balance.

B.

Thank God I live in the UK!!!!

 

[Smoke]

This "church" is one of the most despicable groups there is. I first heard of them when they wanted to protest the Amish schoolchildren killing.

They've been picketing gay bars and gay pride marches for years. Then they started picketing funerals of gay people. They sued the city of Casper, Wyoming, to try to force the city to erect a "monument" to Matthew Shepard saying that Matt was in hell.

The thing is, Phelps seems to have a pathological need to be hated. He wasn't getting enough hate, or enough attention, targeting LGBT people, because a lot of the good Christians in this country kind of understood where he was coming from. He finally figured out that if he picketed the funerals of soldiers killed overseas, and the funerals of children, he could get the kind of attention he really wanted.

Here's an example of the kind of thing we've been putting up with for years, from the Westboro Baptist Church website:

Perpetual Gospel Memorial to Diane Whipple

Diane Whipple, a filthy dyke, died in her sins on Jan. 26, 2001, as a result of being mauled by two dogs. God used literal dogs to kill a figurative dog - sodomites being likened unto dogs for beast-filthiness (Deut. 23:17, Mat. 7:6, Phil. 3:2, 2 Pet. 2:7,8,12,22; Rev. 22:15). **** & dykes = dogs & sows. She lived like a beast, died like a beast, at the hands of beasts, and is mourned by a family of beasts! The wrath and fury that smote Diane Whipple - suddenly and violently ripping her throat out and casting her forthwith into the everlasting flames of Hell - is poised to similarly visit this evil sodomite-dominated nation in final overwhelming vengeance. Jer. 9:9. Sharon Smith (the dead dyke's lover) and Penny Whipple-Kelly (the dead dyke's guilty, dyke-pimp, mother-from-Hell) need a reality check. Diane is in Hell, and you will join her there - where you three will bitterly curse each other forever, as you gnaw your tongues in pain and blaspheme God. Flames of God's wrath will engulf you and fill your heads, bowels, and limbs. The same is happening to Diane now.
​

All the rage about Phelps' glee at the deaths of soldiers and children is good. Maybe now that he's targeting "decent people" he can be shut down.

However, I'm a little angry about the fact that there was never any such rage when he was just targeting us. I wish I had a dollar for every Christian who ever said, "Well, I don't agree with what they're doing, but I understand why they're doing it." And I wish I had a dollar for every Christian who is outraged at his antics of the last four years, but will still go and listen to a preacher say the same kinds of things about us that Fred Phelps says.

The truth is, Fred Phelps doesn't bother me. I've had years to get used to Fred Phelps. At least you know what he is. The ones who bother me are the nice Christians who smile in our faces, then go home and write a check to James Dobson.

 

[standing_alone]

They've been picketing gay bars and gay pride marches for years. Then they started picketing funerals of gay people. They sued the city of Casper, Wyoming, to try to force the city to erect a "monument" to Matthew Shepard saying that Matt was in hell.

The thing is, Phelps seems to have a pathological need to be hated. He wasn't getting enough hate, or enough attention, targeting LGBT people, because a lot of the good Christians in this country kind of understood where he was coming from. He finally figured out that if he picketed the funerals of soldiers killed overseas, and the funerals of children, he could get the kind of attention he really wanted.





Here's an example of the kind of thing we've been putting up with for years, from the Westboro Baptist Church website:

Perpetual Gospel Memorial to Diane Whipple​

Diane Whipple, a filthy dyke, died in her sins on Jan. 26, 2001, as a result of being mauled by two dogs. God used literal dogs to kill a figurative dog - sodomites being likened unto dogs for beast-filthiness (Deut. 23:17, Mat. 7:6, Phil. 3:2, 2 Pet. 2:7,8,12,22; Rev. 22:15). **** & dykes = dogs & sows. She lived like a beast, died like a beast, at the hands of beasts, and is mourned by a family of beasts! The wrath and fury that smote Diane Whipple - suddenly and violently ripping her throat out and casting her forthwith into the everlasting flames of Hell - is poised to similarly visit this evil sodomite-dominated nation in final overwhelming vengeance. Jer. 9:9. Sharon Smith (the dead dyke's lover) and Penny Whipple-Kelly (the dead dyke's guilty, dyke-pimp, mother-from-Hell) need a reality check. Diane is in Hell, and you will join her there - where you three will bitterly curse each other forever, as you gnaw your tongues in pain and blaspheme God. Flames of God's wrath will engulf you and fill your heads, bowels, and limbs. The same is happening to Diane now.​

All the rage about Phelps' glee at the deaths of soldiers and children is good. Maybe now that he's targeting "decent people" he can be shut down.

However, I'm a little angry about the fact that there was never any such rage when he was just targeting us. I wish I had a dollar for every Christian who ever said, "Well, I don't agree with what they're doing, but I understand why they're doing it." And I wish I had a dollar for every Christian who is outraged at his antics of the last four years, but will still go and listen to a preacher say the same kinds of things about us that Fred Phelps says.

The truth is, Fred Phelps doesn't bother me. I've had years to get used to Fred Phelps. At least you know what he is. The ones who bother me are the nice Christians who smile in our faces, then go home and write a check to James Dobson.

:clap Thank you. I knew I couldn't be the only one that felt this way.

When I first heard the outrage over the protests of soldiers' funerals, I first thought, "Well, they've been doing this sort of things for years, so why now the outrage?" But then I quickly remembered, "Oh yeah, but those were funerals of gay people, and most Americans either expressedly or tacitly agree with Phelp's basic message."

It's disgusting to protest any person's funeral and to use a day of mourning set aside for the loved one's of the deceased for the purposes of spreading twisted agenda. Even if you don't respect the person who died (be it because they are gay or fought in a war you disagree with or for a country you find to be too tolerant of something you hate), is no reason to go out of your way to disrespect both that deceased person and the mourners of that deceased person. I don't find any laws barring protesting within a certain proximity of a funeral to burdon anyone's "freedom of speech." Either protest outside that proximity or set the protest for a different day.

I really hope this recent development is a big blow to the Phelps' family and that it cripples their ability to spread their hate. It's only a shame that it took until their hate branched out to another group of people that people started to be outraged enough to try to put a stop to the mess (but I suppose that's inevitable in a society where some groups are highly valued and others are highly devalued--to the point that disrespect for their funerals or for them as people is "understandable"). Welcome to Hate; we've been here for years. Enjoy your stay.

 

[LogDog]

Are Phelps and his ilk not simply following the teachings of their holy book and acting on its word with more relish and determination than most christians of our time? If there are any "True Christians" out there, it seems that Phelps and his flock are some of the most suited to wear the badge (IMO). They may not go to the extent of stoning people to death for what they consider to be heresy, but at least they're making an attempt to further their god's wish.

 

[Buttercup]

Are Phelps and his ilk not simply following the teachings of their holy book and acting on its word with more relish and determination than most christians of our time? If there are any "True Christians" out there, it seems that Phelps and his flock are some of the most suited to wear the badge (IMO). They may not go to the extent of stoning people to death for what they consider to be heresy, but at least they're making an attempt to further their god's wish.

I think you're going a bit overboard and not being very generous of Christians, LogDog.

Most Christians try to adhere to this......

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother, and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' Matthew 19:19

 

[LogDog]

I think you're going a bit overboard and not being very generous of Christians, LogDog.

Most Christians try to adhere to this......

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother, and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' [/COLOR]Matthew 19:19

And not this...

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (Leviticus 20:10-11)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them (Leviticus 20:13).

And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God... (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

 

[Bishka]

The truth is, Fred Phelps doesn't bother me. I've had years to get used to Fred Phelps. At least you know what he is. The ones who bother me are the nice Christians who smile in our faces, then go home and write a check to James Dobson.

I've disliked (because I really don't hate anyone) him since the second I accidentally stumbled upon his hateful, disgusting, horrible website. No one, and I mean NO ONE deserves to be treated that way. I knew about him when he was going on about the GBLT community and I've disliked him ever since.

He is a hateful, horrible, stupid little man that deserves to see what hell is really like.

 

[doppelganger]

Once you set up an ancient "holy" book as containing the authoritative "word of God," it doesn't matter that in some places it says nice things. Some people will let their darkest fears seize upon the parts that justify hatred and violence and will not and cannot be reasoned with because they have their mission on the very pronouncement of the Living God. Whenever authority replaces personal responsibility and compassion, the Fred Phelps of the world are further enabled.

 

[LogDog]

Fred Phelps works for god.

 

[doppelganger]

Fred Phelps works for god.

Don't we all?

 

[Smoke]

Most Christians try to adhere to this......

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother, and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' Matthew 19:19

Some do, but definitely not most. If they did, queers would already have equal rights in this country, and anti-gay rhetoric wouldn't be such a fundraiser for churches and the Republican party.

Of course, they say they love us. They love us so much that they feel compelled to beat us down till we change into respectable, God-loving folks like they are. Fred Phelps loves us that way, too. The only difference between Fred Phelps and my brother is that Phelps is more honest. I can do without that kind of love.

 

[Mister_T]

Are Phelps and his ilk not simply following the teachings of their holy book and acting on its word with more relish and determination than most christians of our time? If there are any "True Christians" out there, it seems that Phelps and his flock are some of the most suited to wear the badge (IMO). They may not go to the extent of stoning people to death for what they consider to be heresy, but at least they're making an attempt to further their god's wish.

Instead of cherry picking passages to fit your disdain for a group of people (which is a common practice of the Phelps clan that you loathe) you could read the foundation of the Christian religion, the Gospel and find that Christianity is strongly in favor of loving others.

 

[doppelganger]

the Gospel and find that Christianity is strongly in favor of loving others.

While I don't disagree, it's also strongly in favor of judging and condemning others. As with anything, people find what they are already want to find when they engage the Bible - usually a reflection of themselves.

 

[Mister_T]

While I don't disagree, it's also strongly in favor of judging and condemning others. As with anything, people find what they are already want to find when they engage the Bible - usually a reflection of themselves.

Generally though, people don't see Jesus as judgmental or condeming (and with good reason). Rather, he is looked at as a figure of love and kindness. Paul on the other hand....

 

[Booko]

Phelps and his church take an $11 million hit. Was justice served?

Funeral war pickets lose verdict - U.S. Life - MSNBC.com

It reminds me of how financial means were used to pull the teeth of the KKK.

And yes, justice was served. "Despicable" is the most charitable term I can think of for people who would protest at a funeral.

 

[doppelganger]

Generally though, people don't see Jesus as judgmental or condeming (and with good reason). Rather, he is looked at as a figure of love and kindness. Paul on the other hand....

He's pretty harsh in Matthew 23. Though the irony of what he is harsh about is almost certainly lost on the likes of Fred Phelps. Then again, it was lost on Catholic and Protestant Christianity in general for the better part of 2000 years, too.