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Picture of Mars vs. the earth. So how did Moses know?

MyM

Well-Known Member
Sorry you're suffering with Covid, hope you feel better soon.


ty :)

This is my 4th day and fever is still high. I take two Tylenol every 6 hours and it brings my fever way down. Cough is severe...it really is a horrible sickness. But, thank God, I am getting through it and actually feeling better today :) two of my kids have it now and two had it really really bad...I guess this is a sickness that is bound to reach everyone. God forbid. I haven't been sick in over 2 years and this hit me bad. Please stay safe and wear your masks just for protection from others who are sick and may not know it. Usually the positive results from one that has covid shows up after the symptoms have subsided a bit. We get tested every 2 weeks here and it is mandatory to enter into any mall or stores without the result which the govt has made available and checks every single person entering-plus they use thermal for temperature screening. You have to test negative twice before you can go outside and work again. I have been vaccinated and boostered and it still got me badly. It could have been from my students to whomever out there. So be careful!!!
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
ty :)

As I said, I don't want to get into it and I am being truthful. I believe what I believe and I have proven from my side why.

It is no excuse, it's just a vicious circle to get into and I really am not up to it.

I don't have to get into it with you or any athiest about evolution because you will not see other's points as well. Sorry, just not in the mood to deal with stuff like that. Go find someone else to go in circles with. I won't do it. It's a waste of time.

The only "circle" here, is you repeating strawmen and us then pointing them out.

So really, what you're saying is that you in fact indeed don't care about being so wrong about evolution.
You're content arguing strawmen.

I don't get it.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It depends what you see. (how you see it.) Scientists sometimes (not always) claim that God had no hand in this. That does not mean that is true though.

And whenever a scientist says that, he's expressing a personal opinion.
You won't find a single science paper stating anything of the sort.

And the science is found in the papers.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
The only "circle" here, is you repeating strawmen and us then pointing them out.

So really, what you're saying is that you in fact indeed don't care about being so wrong about evolution.
You're content arguing strawmen.

I don't get it.

seriously still discussin this?

you can call it strawman all you want. You just do in circles. You cannot convince me I came from apes more than snow comes from hell. If it is a debate you want, go find someone else. If you take it as my defeat, congratulations go party with your ancestors. I know where I came from and I know where people who do not believe in God are going. Not my problem and I am sure you are laughing in your seat, but evolution and descendance from apes surely posses no understanding of God and therefore have a happy life for now, you will need all you get.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think YoursTrue was saying that you have no evidence that what you say is true.

No, that's not what he said. Here's word for word what he said:

At this point, there is simply nothing that someone who does not believe that God is The Creator can say to convince me that it all just came about.

That's black on white that he says in advance that he will not agree with what you say - whatever it is - unless what you say is what he already believes regarding a creator god.

"nothing you can say will convince me". That's pretty clear and unambiguous.

But @YoursTrue can always clarify if this is a misunderstanding and / or if he simply expressed himself poorly there. But as written, that's pretty much what it means.

It is like what sceptics and atheists say of theists.

I can't talk for others, but I don't recall every seeing sceptics or atheists in such discussions ever say anything remotely like "nothing you can say could convince me".

There's a great many things that could convince me. It's not my fault that theists fail to meet their burdens of proof. I'll happily accept any claim / assertion which is sufficiently demonstrated.

See, I actually do have an open mind.

The evidence wanted is what this sentence on your posts suggests.
"Reality is not what you perceive it to be. Instead, it's what the tools and methods of science reveal." ~Neil DeGrass Tyson

There's literally hundreds of thousands of science papers on evolution detailing the evidence.
This is unmatched in any scientific field.

To claim that evolution isn't supported by overwhelming amounts of evidence, means 1 of 2 things:
- one is hugely ignorant on the evidence and the science (willfully or honestly)
- one is lying about the evidence and the science

But that ignores the evidence that science cannot use and that ignoring of evidence leads to the naturalistic methodology,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as if all other evidence has to be wrong simply because science cannot use it.

What are you talking about?
What evidence is being ignored?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I
Are you saying that because spiders and bees can be seen doing what they do therefore what they do is not evidence of a designer?

The mere fact that spiders make webs, does nothing to support a "designer".

I suppose you think the same for the existence of DNA. It can be studied, therefore God had nothing to do with it.

No.
DNA can be studied. And has been studied. Extensively.
And what is concluded is that it provides exactly the mechanism that Darwin predicted should exist.
Darwin didn't know how traits were inherited by off spring, how traits could adapt/change for evolution to take place. The theory requires / predicts such a mechanism.

DNA provides that mechanism. It is inherited by off spring and it mutates.

From there, a waterfall of additional predictions follows.
The main one being that the collective DNA of life, if all life shares ancestry, should be organized into nested hierarchies, as it would represent a family tree.

And that is exactly what we find in the study of genetics also.
Not only is that predicted pattern present, the pattern is also matched by other independent lines of evidence that all converge on the exact same answer. Comparative anatomy (both extant species as well as fossils), the fossil record (location and age and anatomy), geographic distribution of species (both extant species as well as fossils). That last one can also be further cross referenced with historical geology / plate tectonics. This is why we find certain species only in eurasia, or only in australia, etc.

That's explanatory.

This is why evolution has such a ridiculously strong case. Because it is corroborated by so many different independent fields.

When you have multiple independent lines of evidence all converging on the same answer, that's when you have an answer that is very trustworthy. Because of this, evolution is often seen as the most established and best evidenced idea in all of science.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
seriously still discussin this?

There's nothing else to discuss on this topic with you.

you can call it strawman all you want.

I will. And if I won't, others will.
Why wouldn't we?


You cannot convince me I came from apes more than snow comes from hell.

I know. I already acknowledged that.
You have dogmatically invested yourself into an incompatible religious narrative.
No evidence will ever be able to convince you unless you decide to start caring about evidence.

I know where I came from

You have beliefs, not knowledge.

and I know where people who do not believe in God are going.

:rolleyes:


Not my problem and I am sure you are laughing in your seat

Not at all laughing.
If anything, such displays of willful ignorance only saddens me.

you will need all you get.

Resorting to insults and ad hominins only make it worse at this point.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That's black on white that he says in advance that he will not agree with what you say - whatever it is - unless what you say is what he already believes regarding a creator god.

"nothing you can say will convince me". That's pretty clear and unambiguous.

But @YoursTrue can always clarify if this is a misunderstanding and / or if he simply expressed himself poorly there. But as written, that's pretty much what it means.

I think that is what sceptics think also if they have been on the forums long enough. People have their beliefs and think they have heard it all.

I can't talk for others, but I don't recall every seeing sceptics or atheists in such discussions ever say anything remotely like "nothing you can say could convince me".

There's a great many things that could convince me. It's not my fault that theists fail to meet their burdens of proof. I'll happily accept any claim / assertion which is sufficiently demonstrated.

See, I actually do have an open mind.

Good for you.

What are you talking about?
What evidence is being ignored?

The Bible for one. It cannot be used in science.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The mere fact that spiders make webs, does nothing to support a "designer".

It does support a designer imo.

No.
DNA can be studied. And has been studied. Extensively.
And what is concluded is that it provides exactly the mechanism that Darwin predicted should exist.
Darwin didn't know how traits were inherited by off spring, how traits could adapt/change for evolution to take place. The theory requires / predicts such a mechanism.

DNA provides that mechanism. It is inherited by off spring and it mutates.

From there, a waterfall of additional predictions follows.
The main one being that the collective DNA of life, if all life shares ancestry, should be organized into nested hierarchies, as it would represent a family tree.

And that is exactly what we find in the study of genetics also.
Not only is that predicted pattern present, the pattern is also matched by other independent lines of evidence that all converge on the exact same answer. Comparative anatomy (both extant species as well as fossils), the fossil record (location and age and anatomy), geographic distribution of species (both extant species as well as fossils). That last one can also be further cross referenced with historical geology / plate tectonics. This is why we find certain species only in eurasia, or only in australia, etc.

That's explanatory.

This is why evolution has such a ridiculously strong case. Because it is corroborated by so many different independent fields.

When you have multiple independent lines of evidence all converging on the same answer, that's when you have an answer that is very trustworthy. Because of this, evolution is often seen as the most established and best evidenced idea in all of science.

It provides the mechanism and nobody knows how it became that mechanism via any natural means.
Again, to me it suggests a designer.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It does support a designer imo.

How?

It provides the mechanism and nobody knows how it became that mechanism via any natural means.

How the mechanism came about is irrelevant to how the mechanism produced species from common ancestors.

Again, to me it suggests a designer.

So "nobody knows", translates to "it's designed"?

You may guess 3 times which logical fallacy that is.

And if that's not the reasoning that leads to believe that unknown origins "suggests" design, then I invite you to explain how it suggests design.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
ty :)

This is my 4th day and fever is still high. I take two Tylenol every 6 hours and it brings my fever way down. Cough is severe...it really is a horrible sickness. But, thank God, I am getting through it and actually feeling better today :) two of my kids have it now and two had it really really bad...I guess this is a sickness that is bound to reach everyone. God forbid. I haven't been sick in over 2 years and this hit me bad. Please stay safe and wear your masks just for protection from others who are sick and may not know it. Usually the positive results from one that has covid shows up after the symptoms have subsided a bit. We get tested every 2 weeks here and it is mandatory to enter into any mall or stores without the result which the govt has made available and checks every single person entering-plus they use thermal for temperature screening. You have to test negative twice before you can go outside and work again. I have been vaccinated and boostered and it still got me badly. It could have been from my students to whomever out there. So be careful!!!
I usually wear masks (I think my immune system is pretty strong, but you never know...), also I took the first 2 shots plus the booster. Yes, I know especially teachers are pretty well exposed to it, sad but true. (A lot of things are sad but true.) Glad you're getting better.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It does support a designer imo.



It provides the mechanism and nobody knows how it became that mechanism via any natural means.
Again, to me it suggests a designer.
Yes, indeed. So-called "natural life" supports the idea of a Designer.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
ty :)

As I said, I don't want to get into it and I am being truthful. I believe what I believe and I have proven from my side why.

It is no excuse, it's just a vicious circle to get into and I really am not up to it.

I don't have to get into it with you or any athiest about evolution because you will not see other's points as well. Sorry, just not in the mood to deal with stuff like that. Go find someone else to go in circles with. I won't do it. It's a waste of time.
The thing is, anyone who understands evolution (and that includes both atheists and theists) is going to see that you have misrepresented what evolution is, and are going to feel the need to correct that misunderstanding. This is why I have been telling you that if you want to talk about evolution, you need to understand what it is and how it works first. Otherwise, you're just going to get a bunch of corrections in response.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
It depends what you see. (how you see it.) Scientists sometimes (not always) claim that God had no hand in this. That does not mean that is true though.
The person who says that God's hand is involved, is the person who needs to demonstrate that. Not anybody else.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I think YoursTrue was saying that you have no evidence that what you say is true. It is like what sceptics and atheists say of theists.
The evidence wanted is what this sentence on your posts suggests.
"Reality is not what you perceive it to be. Instead, it's what the tools and methods of science reveal." ~Neil DeGrass Tyson
But that ignores the evidence that science cannot use and that ignoring of evidence leads to the naturalistic methodology,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as if all other evidence has to be wrong simply because science cannot use it.
What evidence is ignored?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I must have missed that. I thought it is because you don't think anyone should believe things that lack evidence.

Yes, I do believe that.


When you say something is "obvious" it should be really, really easy to provide evidence for it. Wouldn't you say?

Are you saying that because spiders and bees can be seen doing what they do therefore what they do is not evidence of a designer?

We can demonstrate that spiders and bees actually exist in reality and that if we want to understand them, we can study them, measure them and attempt to draw conclusions from that data.

I suppose you think the same for the existence of DNA. It can be studied, therefore God had nothing to do with it.

You claimed that the actions of spiders and bees and the existence of DNA are evidence of a designer but you didn’t make the actual connection. You just declared it so.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
I usually wear masks (I think my immune system is pretty strong, but you never know...), also I took the first 2 shots plus the booster. Yes, I know especially teachers are pretty well exposed to it, sad but true. (A lot of things are sad but true.) Glad you're getting better.

I thought so too :) I used to be an aerobic instructor before a teacher. I thought I had a pretty good immune system lol turns out virus really sucks and I need to improve mine lol kinda hard bein in front of students and faculty though...bleh lol
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
The thing is, anyone who understands evolution (and that includes both atheists and theists) is going to see that you have misrepresented what evolution is, and are going to feel the need to correct that misunderstanding. This is why I have been telling you that if you want to talk about evolution, you need to understand what it is and how it works first. Otherwise, you're just going to get a bunch of corrections in response.

Your version is yours mine is mine :) If you think you need to correct mine, no need because I believe differently. I don't go into technicalities because I see there is no need to see that far into circles and ape ancestry especially if it was very difficult to even perceive. It will never make sense to me and to many others and let's just leave it at that. Please don't bother me again with this.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I think I was referring to the Biblical evidence
The Bible is filled with claims, rather than evidence. Evidence for Biblical claims would need to come from somewhere outside the Bible.

If you think it's obvious that something has occurred a particular way, then it should be easy to demonstrate that. You don't just get to say it's obvious and then it's just magically true. It's clearly not obvious to everyone that the particular God you worship created the universe, given that there are people who believe in all kinds of other Gods and some who don't believe in any Gods.

Of course I see the problem and the reason that science (as a discipline) does not accept any one of these various writings.
The thing is that the reason that science does not use any evidence like this is not reason that individuals cannot use it for their particular view of the world.
You can base your own worldview on whatever you like.
If you want everyone else to believe it, you'll have to demonstrate that it's what you say it is.

"Science" cannot say one way or the other about the existence of God and there is reason for that.
Science deals with falsifiable claims. The existence of God is not a falsifiable claim.

But again, the burden of proof is on those making the claim.
If someone claims that Bigfoot exists, it's not on anybody else to disprove it. Rather, the burden of proof is on person saying that there is a Bigfoot.

However sceptics seem to love this idea that science cannot use holy books as evidence and so they have done the same thing and condemn themselves to a life of not knowing or believing in the existence of God.
Done the same thing? What do you mean?

Just as I said. And even when I say that the supernatural in the Bible is testable in the prophecies there is always reason to say the prophecies are wrong or not acceptable.
Then get out there and test it and demonstrate it's veracity.

A prophecy supposedly coming true doesn't prove that it came from any God(s). You'd still have to demonstrate that. There are a bunch of people who think that Nostradamus made some pretty accurate prophecies as well. Was he sent from God too?

The problem with these "prophecies" is that they're vague and require a great amount of mental and mathematical gymnastics in order to try and make them fit, long after they've been written down. Not to mention that the people who wrote the stories that fulfilled such prophecies had access to the writings where said prophecies were written down.

There is more and more evidence being gathered all the times and it seems to be suppressed by people who do not want the Bible to be seen as true.
I've asked you for several pages now to provide this evidence. Why haven't you yet?
Who is suppressing this evidence that you still haven't provided?

But of course lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
It's not evidence in favour of your claim either.

At best (being very generous), it's inconclusive.

If you keep up with new discoveries in archaeology it should be clear that the historicity of the Bible is being shown to be true but just not accepted by most scholars. So a majority vote is the determining factor.
You've mentioned this before, but ignore the fact that there are a ton of fictional books that mention places and people that actually exist, but that doesn't automatically make the story true, right?

Like, if I read a Spiderman comic, I'll see references to New York City and the Empire State Building, and the President of the United States, etc. but that doesn't mean Spiderman is real too, right?

If most scholars don't agree with you, I'd say that's something to at least think about. After all, they're the experts in their field(s).

However when I spoke of circular reasoning I was referring to the naturalistic methodology in history and anthropology which end up relegating the writing of the Bible to a long time after the books and other history suggests and then the late dates of authorship are used to show that the supernatural (prophecies) are not real.
How is that circular reasoning?



No that is not verification, that is just presuming that Bible authors plagiarised and ignoring the idea that both the earlier and later authors knew of the same events (eg the flood).
We can tell what has been plagiarized, in some cases. There are also common themes that human beings have told and written about for as long as we've existed on earth, apparently.
That doesn't mean there is a God or that a worldwide flood occurred for which there is no scientific evidence.
 
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