Place of Rational Inquiry in Dharmic Worldviews

[Aupmanyav]

He gave his suggestions and left it to us. I accepted some, didn't accept some others.

 

[Osal]

He gave his suggestions and left it to us. I accepted some, didn't accept some others.

A guru doesn't make "suggestions".

 

[Aupmanyav]

In India, they do. I remember of one Guru who as a parting message said to his pupil, 'Son, I have told you what I knew. Now go and search for more'.
But basically, my view is like this. I have no problem if you or anyone else holds different view. That does not matter much in Hinduism, we accept differences.

 

[Osal]

In India, they do. I remember of one Guru who as a parting message said to his pupil, 'Son, I have told you what I knew. Now go and search for more'.
But basically, my view is like this. I have no problem if you or anyone else holds different view. That does not matter much in Hinduism, we accept differences.

That certainly isn't true.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is not true, Osal?

 

[Osal]

What is not true, Osal?

The part about Hindus accepting diffrences. Your assertion doesn't doesn't seem to be supported by the history of India.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Really? You know about India? It is only recently that Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs insisted to separate from Hinduism. For long they considered themselves part of Hinduism. Is not Buddha an avatara of Lord Vishnu for us? Kindly read this post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...hakti-in-the-vedas.188707/page-5#post-4810287

 

[Osal]

Really? You know about India? It is only recently that Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs insisted to separate from Hinduism. For long they considered themselves part of Hinduism. Is not Buddha an avatara of Lord Vishnu for us? Kindly read this post:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...hakti-in-the-vedas.188707/page-5#post-4810287

Intresting enough I suppose, but I rather doubt your assertions regarding the relationship between Hinduism and other Dharmicreligions.

Besides, it's a bit irrelevant to our little discussion.

 

[sayak83]

What do you think about perfect tranquility requirement?

Its not a requirement. Its a characteristic of a person who has attained moksha.

 

[sayak83]

The Buddha gives 4 criteria to judge by...
Is it good, not blameable, praised by the wise, and when undertaken lead to benefit and happiness..

The KS is often referred to as a charter of free inquiry. I belive that to be wrong. Rather, I see it as specific instruction on method of inquiry. You are not free.

Kalama sutta does not outline what is good, how one should identify who is wise and how one ascertains benefit. In this respect, Buddha's conversation in Canki Sutta is significantly better.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.095x.than.html

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

"To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth.

"Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. We regard this as an awakening to the truth. But to what extent is there the final attainment of the truth? To what extent does one finally attain the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final attainment of the truth."

"The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth."

 

[atanu]

Its not a requirement. Its a characteristic of a person who has attained moksha.

What is meant by

...Release, which constitutes in the self getting rid of the world, is the condition of supreme felicity marked by perfect tranquility and not tainted by any defilement. ...
......

 

[sayak83]

What is meant by

...Release, which constitutes in the self getting rid of the world, is the condition of supreme felicity marked by perfect tranquility and not tainted by any defilement. ...
......

The word here is samsara, i.e. self getting rid of transmigration in the world. Getting rid of rebirth

 

[atanu]

The word here is samsara, i.e. self getting rid of transmigration in the world. Getting rid of rebirth

Well 'transmigration'. Is it even in the book of rationalists? I am just raising questions. You decide for yourself about perfect tranquility.

 

[sayak83]

Well 'transmigration'. Is it even in the book of rationalists? I am just raising questions. You decide for yourself about perfect tranquility.

I don't understand what you are talking about. This is a discussion about Nyaya-Vaisesika philosophy. The Nyaya scholars were theists while the Vaisesika were non-theists. The work I am quoting from is Nyaya Sutra. The thread topic has to do with the rational analysis of the Nyaya-Vaisesika scholars in the Dharmic schools, has nothing to do with whoever the rationalists are supposed to be. Who are rationalists by the way?

 

[atanu]

I don't understand what you are talking about. .... The thread topic has to do with the rational analysis of the Nyaya-Vaisesika scholars in the Dharmic schools, has nothing to do with whoever the rationalists are supposed to be. Who are rationalists by the way?

Sorry for creating the confusion. My question is what rational enquiry supports transmigration ... That is from Nyaya viewpoint? And how that relates to attaining perfect tranquility. What exactly is perfect tranquility and its mode of attainment from Nyaya viewpoint.

 

[Aupmanyav]

IMHO, it is relevant. Jews came to India in BC, Christians and Muslims soon after their religions took birth; and the Zoroastrians later. None faced any discrimination. Nor any of the dharmic religions. How do you justify your following statement?

The part about Hindus accepting diffrences. Your assertion doesn't doesn't seem to be supported by the history of India.

 

[sayak83]

Sorry for creating the confusion. My question is what rational enquiry supports transmigration ... That is from Nyaya viewpoint? And how that relates to attaining perfect tranquility. What exactly is perfect tranquility and its mode of attainment from Nyaya viewpoint.

Nyaya philosophy believes that rational and empirically grounded inquiry about the world and the nature of the self can also lead to standard moksha and/or God realization as in other Hindu schools like bhakti, yoga etc. Nyaya philosophy does discuss the arguments for and against rebirth God, etc. later in their discourses. This second sentence of the sutra merely lays down the goal the practice is supposed to achieve.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

Nyaya philosophy believes that rational and empirically grounded inquiry about the world and the nature of the self can also lead to standard moksha and/or God realization as in other Hindu schools like bhakti, yoga etc. Nyaya philosophy does discuss the arguments for and against rebirth God, etc. later in their discourses. This second sentence of the sutra merely lays down the goal the practice is supposed to achieve.

"God realization" does not apply to Nyaya's definition of Moksha, for Gautama did not accept Ishwara.

Like all other other early darshanas (Mimamsa, Baudha, Sankhya, Vaisesika), Nyaya too was atheistic in nature. Much later, some Nyaya scholars attempted to introduce Ishwara into the doctrine.

 

[sayak83]

"God realization" does not apply to Nyaya's definition of Moksha, for Gautama did not accept Ishwara.

Like all other other early darshanas (Mimamsa, Baudha, Sankhya, Vaisesika), Nyaya too was atheistic in nature. Much later, some Nyaya scholars attempted to introduce Ishwara into the doctrine.

I wrote and/or for that reason.

 

[atanu]

Nyaya philosophy believes that rational and empirically grounded inquiry about the world and the nature of the self can also lead to standard moksha and/or God realisation ...

Can you kindly point out this to me? Where Nyaya teaches that empirical enquiry can impart moksha?

"God realization" does not apply to Nyaya's definition of Moksha, for Gautama did not accept Ishwara.
....

Can you kindly show that Gautama rejected the idea of Ishwara?