Plants and Vegetarianism

[Quintessence]

Oh, yes, it is bothersome when certain folks claim "moral high ground" for being vegetarian. However, it is bothersome in general when someone claims "moral high ground" no matter what the topic or subject is, because the very idea of "moral high ground" is problematic. Some of this is owed to my moral nihilism; there's no such thing as a moral or immoral action in the first place, much less "higher" and "lower" ground to stand on. In terms of virtue, however, fussing about who has the supposed "higher" ground suggests some rather questionable values. I suppose if one considers it a virtue to win all things one regards as a competition it might make sense to fuss about having the "moral high ground," but to my mind, this does a grave disservice to the heart of the matter. One should be upholding a given value because one believes it to be worthy, not because one feels a need to be "better" than one's fellows.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Yes, but I'm often on here and elsewhere saying 'animals have souls', 'are on their own evolutionary path', 'feel pain', 'suffer' etc. If I was then to turn round and say "Right, well. if you'll excuse me I'm just off for a Big Mac" you wouldn't think that a tad hypocritical?

I've encountered quite a few people who proclaimed 'plants feel pain', but I've yet to meet one who was prepared to put their soul where their mouth is and become fruitarain, or even reduce their plant intake. Indeed to a man they were still eating animals as well!

Raising awareness is good, if true, but if one isn't prepared to incorporate said beliefs into one's day-to-day life and live by them, how can one expect anyone else to?

I don't care if an animal or plant has a soul or manitou, it is my place in this world to kill and eat, it is how I am design and I have the canines to prove it. I forbidden by the tenets of my beliefs to consider anything edible for unclean or forbidden since my deity has declared it all to be clean. In my beliefs if you eat meat, you do it in thankful to the All in all, if you don't eat meat then do it in thankfulness to the All in all. And don't judge another for eating meat or not eating meat.

 

[Knight of Albion]

Oh, yes, it is bothersome when certain folks claim "moral high ground" for being vegetarian. However, it is bothersome in general when someone claims "moral high ground" no matter what the topic or subject is, because the very idea of "moral high ground" is problematic. Some of this is owed to my moral nihilism; there's no such thing as a moral or immoral action in the first place, much less "higher" and "lower" ground to stand on. In terms of virtue, however, fussing about who has the supposed "higher" ground suggests some rather questionable values. I suppose if one considers it a virtue to win all things one regards as a competition it might make sense to fuss about having the "moral high ground," but to my mind, this does a grave disservice to the heart of the matter. One should be upholding a given value because one believes it to be worthy, not because one feels a need to be "better" than one's fellows.

No-one has actually claimed a 'moral high ground', that was the association given by the OP.

Generally speaking vegetarians and vegans follow the diet they do on grounds of compassion.

I can assure you that life would be very much easier to follow the norm, but if one isn't prepared to stand by and live by one's beliefs and principles ...

Personally I don't see anything to this 'moral high ground' argument'.
Firstly, "no-one can make you feel inferior but yourself"...
Secondly, are Amnesty International supporters who speak up for human rights any different to animal rights supporters who speak up for animal rights? They're both opposing brutality and injustice, just in different forms.

 

[Knight of Albion]

I don't care

Luckily some people do.

 

[Knight of Albion]

I forbidden by the tenets of my beliefs to consider anything edible for unclean or forbidden since my deity has declared it all to be clean.

Human flesh is edible.

 

[Knight of Albion]

PS: Who is this Anarcho-Gnostic god?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Human flesh is edible.

Not to humans. They can get all sort of diseases eating it like prion diseases. So no.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Luckily some people do.

Just like you don't care that plants have life in them too and you should be thankful and respectful of the life you took.

 

[Knight of Albion]

Not to humans. They can get all sort of diseases eating it like prion diseases. So no.

You can get food poisoning and the like from all manner of things, but its still 'edible' under your guidelines.
Human flesh is edible, tastes much like pork apparently. Not that I'm recommending it! Cannibalism has taken place for thousands of years, even up till recent times n New Guinea for example.
You neglected to identify your Anarcho-Gnostic god who permits you to eat "anything", "nothing unclean if its edible".

 

[Skwim]

What if someone wanted to kill one's loved ones 'without inflicting suffering'? Would that make it okay?

Life is dear to all.

If one's loved ones are a couple of potatoes then it would not be okay.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Cannibalism has taken place for thousands of years, even up till recent times n New Guinea for example.

And those people would get prion diseases from eating people. You just want to have your vegan moral high ground. But you no longer have it because those who respect all life as sacred not just animal life but all life have more respect for life than you do.

 

[Knight of Albion]

Just like you don't care that plants have life in them too and you should be thankful and respectful of the life you took.

It is misplaced to draw a parallel.
Animals have souls as we do and are on their own evolutionary path.
When an animal has learned all the lessons the Animal Kingdom has to teach, its next evolutionary step is as incarnation in human guise.
Positive association with humans affords animals individuality, which they retain after death. Beloved pets frequently show up in NDEs.
Anyone who has ever had a pet cat, or dog especially, will know as fact that animals have feelings and emotions akin to our own.
Unlike plants, animals have the central nervous system necessary to feel pain and unlike plants, the brain necessary to register pain.

I'm mindful that the First Blessing espouses a fruitarian diet that doesn't destroy either animals or plants, so perhaps there is something mankind is yet to discover.
But if you believe what you say you do, then you should be a fruitarian and live by your beliefs and principles, just as a vegan does.

 

[Knight of Albion]

And those people would get prion diseases from eating people. You just want to have your vegan moral high ground. But you no longer have it because those who respect all life as sacred not just animal life but all life have more respect for life than you do.

Those who talk the talk AND walk the walk are worthy of respect.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Animals...are on their own evolutionary path.

So are plants.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Those who talk the talk AND walk the walk are worthy of respect.

I live in accordance to how my god made me...an omnivore who is free to eat other animals and vegetation without remorse but with thankfulness.

 

[Knight of Albion]

I live in accordance to how my god made me...an omnivore who is free to eat other animals and vegetation without remorse but with thankfulness.

That which is sacred is to be cherished or destroyed?

Again I ask, who is this Anarcho-Gnostic god? I don't think it's an unreasonable question to ask.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

That which is sacred is to be cherished or destroyed?

Yes and yes!

 

[EyeofOdin]

1). The neural mechanisms that mediate suffering in animals are lacking in plants.
2). Suffering implies consciousness and self-awareness. What evidence do we have for these in plants? Plants lack the neural mechanisms believed to support consciousness in animals.
3).Robots can be built that will sense and respond to environmental cues, and defend themselves, but no-one believes they're conscious.
4). Nature is thrifty. She doesn't waste energy on useless features. Birds in rich, predator-free environs lose flight. Animals in dark caves lose sight. Sessile organisms have no need for the complex, high-speed, conscious reactions of animals, so would likely not waste energy developing them.

Would feeling pain benefit them?
Organisms are unlikely to develop useless features.

If you watched the link I had sent, then you wouldn't be arguing these things.

 

[ZooGirl02]

Ridiculous.
We eschew meat because we abhor suffering, and suffering presupposes consciousness, self awareness.
These links describe plant responses to environmental stimuli, but falsely draws analogies to mammalian responses. The responses described don't translate to self-awareness, consciousness, or the ability to suffer in the way a creature with a nervous system might suffer.

Personally, I completely agree with you.

That said, I have personally considered becoming a vegetarian or vegan in the past but only because I hate the way that factory farms treat their animals. I believe it is immoral how so much abuse occurs in factory farms. I personally advocate for serious reform of the factory farming industry.

 

[Valjean]

Personally, I completely agree with you.

Well, you're clearly a scholar and great intellect.

That said, I have personally considered becoming a vegetarian or vegan in the past but only because I hate the way that factory farms treat their animals. I believe it is immoral how so much abuse occurs in factory farms. I personally advocate for serious reform of the factory farming industry.

I personally advocate applying the golden rule to all who can appreciate its application.