Playing Islam's advocate

[Deidre]

Obviously.



I used to say much the same thing a few years ago. But one can't very well ignore the evidence.

People are naturally likely to seek mutual respect and acceptance unless driven by perceived need or otherwise encouraged not to.

It is very much proper to ask and investigate how conducive to peace Islam is or fails to be.



I am not like most Muslims - or at least not like most people who claim to understand Islam - in that I do not expect people to submit to my beliefs "if they only learn better". Nor do I see refusal to adopt those as a "sin".

What do you wish would happen? For people to stop 'defending' Islam? Or...?

 

[LuisDantas]

What do you wish would happen? For people to stop 'defending' Islam? Or...?

I wish Islam would hear its critics and its own would-be reformers and let go of at least some of its xenophoby and theocentrism.

I do not think there is a whole lot of room for that to happen, but I want to be proven wrong.

 

[Deidre]

I wish Islam would hear its critics and its own would-be reformers and let go of at least some of its xenophoby and theocentrism.

I do not think there is a whole lot of room for that to happen, but I want to be proven wrong.

Ah! I see your issue, now. Okay, thank you for clarifying.

Maybe the peaceful Muslims all around us, by how they conduct themselves and live their lives...they feel that is enough to show others that they are most certainly not xenophobic. And that their lives are an example of their faith. It must be difficult to follow a religion peacefully, and to have people tell you that you're not practicing it as your prophet intended. I hear this a lot with my Christian and atheist friends who believe that how the terrorist groups behave, is actually 'true Islam,' and that if Muhammad were to be alive right now, he would be leading them. Many people think this, sadly. That the peaceful Muslims are ''doin it wrong.' Imagine being a peaceful Muslim, devoting yourself to the beauty of your faith, and having to hear this rhetoric. There's always another side to look at, is all I'm saying.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ah! I see your issue, now. Okay, thank you for clarifying.

Maybe the peaceful Muslims all around us, by how they conduct themselves and live their lives...they feel that is enough to show others that they are most certainly not xenophobic.

I'm pretty sure most are not xenophobic, indeed.

And that their lives are an example of their faith. It must be difficult to follow a religion peacefully, and to have people tell you that you're not practicing it as your prophet intended. I hear this a lot with my Christian and atheist friends who believe that how the terrorist groups behave, is actually 'true Islam,' and that if Muhammad were to be alive right now, he would be leading them.

He probably would at that.

Many people think this, sadly. That the peaceful Muslims are ''doin it wrong.' Imagine being a peaceful Muslim, devoting yourself to the beauty of your faith, and having to hear this rhetoric. There's always another side to look at, is all I'm saying.

That is not in dispute, at least not by me. But what I know of psychology of masses leads me to worry a lot about the situation.

 

[Deidre]

He probably would at that.

I can't imagine why most Muslims here stick to the DIR as you mention above. lol
Anyway...nice chatting with you.

 

[icehorse]

Deidre,

With respect, I don't think you're taking on honest look at how most of the world's Muslims live. For example, I don't think you'd volunteer to play the role that most women in Muslim societies are forced to play.

 

[Deidre]

Deidre,

With respect, I don't think you're taking on honest look at how most of the world's Muslims live. For example, I don't think you'd volunteer to play the role that most women in Muslim societies are forced to play.

I considered converting last year, and didn't...for a number of reasons, one of which, my life would definitely change. How Muslims date, what is expected of women, what is expected in marriage etc...even in the states, my life would have changed somewhat. I'm not naive to that, and coupled with areas of the Qur'an that I couldn't reconcile with my worldview, I chose to not convert. But, I also came up close and personal to what it might be like to be a Muslimah, and there is a lot of beauty on the pages of the Qur'an. In the prayer life. In Sufism. That said, my desire to not convert, doesn't cause me to insult people who follow Islam or defend it. It's just simply not a religion that I'd convert to, and I guess I don't understand the need to go on and on about one's loathing of a particular religion. There are many religions/belief systems that make zero sense to me, but I don't erect threads insulting them...it just doesn't make sense, is all.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Deidre,

Very few of the world's Muslims live in the west. I was referring to what most of the world's female Muslims are relegated to.

 

[LuisDantas]

I can't imagine why most Muslims here stick to the DIR as you mention above. lol
Anyway...nice chatting with you.

I will take it to mean that you agree on the why, but not on whether it is good or proper for them, right?

 

[LuisDantas]

That said, my desire to not convert, doesn't cause me to insult people who follow Islam or defend it.

Good. That is something else we have in common then, although I again expect you to disagree. I can't help that.

 

[Deidre]

Good. That is something else we have in common then, although I again expect you to disagree. I can't help that.

lol ''else''

I don't care honestly what your views are Luis, you're entitled to think anything you like...but, these threads insulting/putting down Muslims/Islam just get old. Different spin, but same concept in the end. To each their own...

 

[LuisDantas]

lol ''else''

I don't care honestly what your views are Luis, you're entitled to think anything you like...

That does not seem to be quite how you feel, if your posts in this thread are any indication.

Nor is it quite true anyway. I am expected to take reality into account and restrain my opinions by observable and discernible facts when I choose what to think.

Sometimes there is a price to be paid.

but, these threads insulting/putting down Muslims/Islam

... are not of my doing, although again I do not expect you to agree, Mine are the reaction to those you describe, which are mostly the doing of Islam apologists.

I accepted that and decided to pry into the matter a bit, hence my threads.

But it is to much for me to expect people to consistently judge me fairly.

I am sorry that you can't find it in you, but I will have to accept that.

just get old.

That they do. But such is the nature of life. We spend a lot of time due to demands not our own.

Different spin, but same concept in the end.

Yeah. I am not insane. Nor do I make a point of deeply compartimentalizing my mind in order to maximize my social acceptance at the expense of my peace of mind.

Perhaps surprisingly for the inexperienced, that comes at a price. Everything comes at a price.

To each their own...

You are grossly misjudging and missrepresenting what I say, and I have no doubt that you will come to realize that.

But again, I can't help it. I won't lie on such an important matter. If you can't handle that, then that is that.

Best of luck, and try to remember that I extended to you less judgement than you saw fit to give me in return. Although I expect that, too, to be too much for you.

 

[Shad]

I wish Islam would hear its critics and its own would-be reformers and let go of at least some of its xenophoby and theocentrism.

I do not think there is a whole lot of room for that to happen, but I want to be proven wrong.

I know of a few Muslims, about 1500 give or take a hundred, that are attempting to do so. However they have no state power. The only chance they have to reform is by doing so in the West where they are free from the heavy hand of Islamic authorities.

If you are interested I can put you in contact with a few, just PM me.

 

[Sakeenah]

"Ummah" is a closed club consisting only of Muslims and against all other people of the world, the unbelievers. I do not know if this observation is permitted in this topic. If not, please delete it forthwith without any hesitation.

Edited: And there are strict regulations as to how these "dimmis/zimmis" are supposed to live in an Islamic state. I can provide the details if needed.

You just gave your own meaning of the word ummah congratulations you are officially a DIY scholar on islam and arabic. Do you know the arabic language..no wait do you know the arabic alphabet ?

The word ummah comes from the root letters alif,miim,ta.. uma (mother) also shares the same root.
Linguistically the word ummah means nation,community. People with common ancestry etc.

So when we are referring to muslim ummah we mean a nation that shares the same belief..Islam.
So no ummah is not a code word for 'lets kill all the disbelievers'

 

[Augustus]

With respect, I don't think you're taking on honest look at how most many of the world's Muslims live. For example, I don't think you'd volunteer to play the role that most many women in Muslim societies are forced to play.

Fixed

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You just gave your own meaning of the word ummah congratulations you are officially a DIY scholar on islam and arabic. Do you know the arabic language..no wait do you know the arabic alphabet ?

The word ummah comes from the root letters alif,miim,ta.. uma (mother) also shares the same root.
Linguistically the word ummah means nation,community. People with common ancestry etc.

So when we are referring to muslim ummah we mean a nation that shares the same belief..Islam.
So no ummah is not a code word for 'lets kill all the disbelievers'

Yes. Ummah in Islam is basically the same concept as the Church is in Christianity - a unified body of believers.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You just gave your own meaning of the word ummah congratulations you are officially a DIY scholar on islam and arabic. Do you know the arabic language..no wait do you know the arabic alphabet?

It is a synonym for ummat al-Islamiyah (Arabic: الأمة الإسلامية‎) (the Islamic Community), and it is commonly used to mean the collective community of Islamic peoples. In the Quran the ummah typically refers to a single group that shares common religious beliefs, specifically those that are the objects of a divine plan of salvation.[2][3] In the context of Pan-Islamism and politics, the word Ummah can be used to mean the concept of a Commonwealth of the Believers (أمة المؤمنينummat al-mu'minīn). ..

There are a total of sixty-two instances that the term ummah is mentioned in the Qur'an.[9] The use of ummah in the Qur'an almost always refers to ethical, linguistic, or religious bodies of people who are subject to the divine plan of salvation.[2][10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah (You can check the references, they are live)

 

[Sakeenah]

That reminds me of a situation I once met and that seems to me to evidence a disturbing pattern.

Muslims tend to keep to their DIRs and even to insist on bringing discussions there even in situations that, to me, strongly advise against it, such as invitations for somewhat more direct discussion of Islamic topics (which would be better suited for a debate or at least a discussion area).

DIRs are by nature and by proposal inhibitors of actual discussion. Non-Muslims in a Muslim DIR are by necessity muted and tied. They can't speak their minds and they have serious restrictions on what they may even ask.

I would expect people interested in promoting a more open acceptance of Islam to invite people out of the DIRs, not into them.

There is an IMO disturbing if perhaps unconscious implication that Muslims tend to expect to never deal with any significant questioning. No doubt because they have been raised to see that as the proper behavior.

While it is often and rightly pointed out that this is a political reality as opposed to a necessarily religious one, the fact remains that plenty of Muslims live in less repressive countries, yet their attitudes are not all that noticeably different.

There is a very persistent feeling that while liberal Muslims may exist and perhaps in significant numbers even, the mindset that would welcome their acknowledgement as proper, representative Muslims apparently does not exist. It is not at all a situation that resembles the very open and ultimately peaceful if sometimes grumpy coexistence of various lines of Judaic thought or the impressive variety of interpretations of Christianity. Muslims seem to feel that there MUST be a right way of being Muslim and a wrong way, and that there is little room for honorable accomodation of different understandings.

It is a synonym for ummat al-Islamiyah (Arabic: الأمة الإسلامية‎) (the Islamic Community), and it is commonly used to mean the collective community of Islamic peoples. In the Quran the ummah typically refers to a single group that shares common religious beliefs, specifically those that are the objects of a divine plan of salvation.[2][3] In the context of Pan-Islamism and politics, the word Ummah can be used to mean the concept of a Commonwealth of the Believers (أمة المؤمنينummat al-mu'minīn). ..

There are a total of sixty-two instances that the term ummah is mentioned in the Qur'an.[9] The use of ummah in the Qur'an almost always refers to ethical, linguistic, or religious bodies of people who are subject to the divine plan of salvation.[2][10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah (You can check the references)

Thank you for copy and paste

This doesnt prove what you were saying 'muslims against all disbelievers '

 

[LuisDantas]

Thank you for copy and paste

This doesnt prove what you were saying 'muslims against all disbelievers '

I take it that you disagree? Maybe you want to give your testimonial to the contrary?

I'm all ears.

 

[sun rise]

Some evidence that a proper Muslim may dare to disapprove of his own political leader's claims, perhaps. That there is a place for questioning authority in the life of a good Muslim.

Signs of true tolerance of diversity of thinking. What I have seen so far looks a lot more like hope that we will eventually submit to the supposed wisdom of their ways if we are at all honest with ourselves.

An admission that it is indeed possible for one to sincerely claim to be following the Qur'an yet be terribly wrong.

In a pinch, a simple admission that it is acceptable to choose to be moral as opposed to obedient would serve well as a starting point.

Edited to add: Some degree of insistence that homosexuals and disbelievers deserve consideration and respect no matter what would be welcome as well.

Come to think of it, I am curious if anyone would feel like tackling the matter of whether "kafir" means "unbeliever" (with no "proper" justification such as being unaware of the Qur'an's contents) and whether that should be understood as a technical term or rather as an insult. I sometimes find myself wondering if the doctrine even allows for the differentiation.

All religions have words for unbelievers. In my youth, I was called a "kike" an insult because I was Jewish and not a Christian. And today Buddhists are killing Muslims and so forth. So I'm familiar with religious insults.

But for diversity in religious thinking, there are many many different interpretations of the Quran and Hadith to be found. Did you know that the Quran says that the state of Israel has come into existence due to the will of Allah as a sign we're living in the "end of days" (at least according to one translation):
When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]." (17:100-104 contains that text in one translation).

And: http://submission.org/Befriending_Christians_Jews.html
This verse should not be used by any mean to negate the fact that among the Jews (and Christians) will be righteous people who can be good friends as explained in the above verses, they do not fight us in our religion or our homes. They can be our neighbors, colleagues, friends, co-workers...etc We will be good to them as they are good to us. We, all the righteous people of all religions ,can make the difference and make this world better by respecting each other, respecting the freedom of choice of each other, and remember that we all have the One and the same God.

But your call for morality over obedience is to me a false dichotomy because it assumes there is only one way to be obedient. It's like asking a Jew to not be obedient to Torah and Talmud when in fact there are many interpretations and ways of looking at some apparently terrible passages.