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Please Define "Religion"

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No, that's too limited. A person can easily prostrate to the sun each morning without a community.

consistent action on a regular interval. a consistent belief, btw, is an intellectual activity.

woohoo, we agree :)

Dang-it, we're back to disagreeing. Do you need another example? Daoist wizards often cultivate in isolation.

I am my own religion and it is about how I learn to understand how to love other people than me, even if different. Including that love apparently is not that simple.
 
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The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Mikkel was talking about materialism, you replied to his point.
So again, show me exactly where I was talking about your given definition of materialism. You didn't reply to mikkel, you replied to me, so please show exactly where me saying "The world is made of stuff" is saying "the world is made of stuff and nothing else".

Okay, so until further evidence I will assume that you conflate feelings with observation.
Thank you (not kindly) for wasting my time, mikkel. Parting advice: assumption is never a good tactic. Define that how you will.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I am my own religion and it is about how I learn to understand how to love other people that me, even if different. Including that love apparently is not that simple.
[ sarcasm ] what?? no community?? that's no religion! [ /sarcasm ]

as long as your learning is consistent then I deem it religion.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
So just give me objective observable evidence and we are done. Not what you think/feel. It is that simple.
No, you're getting nothing more. Because you have shown here that you're going to take anything and misconstrue it as thoughts and feelings. You're asking for evidence of non-physical occurrences with tangible, observable, and objectively definable results; what manner of evidence are you expecting?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No, you're getting nothing more. Because you have shown here that you're going to take anything and misconstrue it as thoughts and feelings. You're asking for evidence of non-physical occurrences with tangible, observable, and objectively definable results; what manner of evidence are you expecting?

Ohh, we agree. Good. That was the point when it started with @MikeF
Just backtrack the thread.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Morality is a human sense that requires context. It's equally as preposterous (as saying good and bad cannot be objective) to say that a wolf killing a deer is bad merely for the presence of death. This goes back to where I said that it is not a stark dichotomy, but a gradient. Yet if someone is, say, beating their dog to death just because, that is wrong and bad as it is senseless, cruel, and of detriment to the life of the dog and the person's view on creatures lesser than them. Plucking the wings off flies leads to experimentally killing frogs leads to drowning cats leads to shoving playmates off high places. Perhaps a bit hyperbolic, yet it is observably damaging to one's psyche and, in turn, those around them.

In contrast, alleviating hardships and struggles is objectively good for that very reason. We see its effects in immediate gratitude, or even in the absence of gratitude but the following effects of that subject thriving, if not for a day. This is as evident as the difference between noon and midnight, midwinter and midsummer. It requires no deep philosophical exploration, no dogma or religion, and no god to shepherd our way to knowing good and evil. We don't need to eat a fruit to see it.

And, in fact, I would argue that religion (particularly Christianity) has hindered objective morality by ascribing it to a deity and a holy book, with which those in power can craft the message to what they want and demonize entire populations of people.

You are bringing up certain parameters through which you judge whether something is good or evil. Emotivism would say that you are merely expressing your likes and dislikes, not objective morality. Whereas moral relativism would say that you are making your moral claims based on your culture (for example), and while it may in fact be true to you, it is not necessarily true to everyone else.

How do you address both of those perspectives?
 
So again, show me exactly where I was talking about your given definition of materialism. You didn't reply to mikkel, you replied to me, so please show exactly where me saying "The world is made of stuff" is saying "the world is made of stuff and nothing else".

giphy.gif



Never mind...
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No, that's too limited. A person can easily prostrate to the sun each morning without a community.
In and of itself, prostrating to the Sun by yourself isn't a religion.

consistent action on a regular interval. a consistent belief, btw, is an intellectual activity.
Belief isn't action. Identity isn't action.

woohoo, we agree :)
... for once.

Dang-it, we're back to disagreeing. Do you need another example? Daoist wizards often cultivate in isolation.
Being part of a religion - a community of shared belief and practice - doesn't mean that absolutely every religious ritual has to be communal.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
[ sarcasm ] what?? no community?? that's no religion! [ /sarcasm ]
Why the sacrasm marks? You're correct without them.

You can have a belief system with only one adherent, but you can't have a religion with only one adherent.

as long as your learning is consistent then I deem it religion.
Even though it isn't one?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The only common thing between all religions is that they involve a community, and that community decides for itself what standards it will use when accepting or rejecting members.

How do you call a religion that doesn't have a community?
If I were the next Joseph Smith and nobody wanted to tag along with me, what would you call my set of beliefs and practices?
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
MikeF Religion and politics are peas from the same pod,the aim is power and control,the difference is politics doesn’t say you’ll be punished for eternity if you don’t tow the party line.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Emotivism would say that you are merely expressing your likes and dislikes, not objective morality.
By what measure would emotivism show that I am speaking from preference? Additionally, and to weigh criticism of emotivism as far less than an absolute, I would add little more that Richard Brandt already has. Witnessing the torture and brutal execution of a living thing, and subsequently applying immediate ethical labelling, is far different and beyond a mere preference.

moral relativism would say that you are making your moral claims based on your culture
Moral relativism is splitting hairs, and more handles the "shades of grey" rather than in what manner moral definitions are applied. Yet in no culture will you find a view that murder is inherently good. In any instance, in any culture, what is defined as "good" and "bad" is the same; humans are social creatures, our entire psychological makeup is structured around community, and as such "good" and "bad" defines that which either aids or hinders to varying degrees and extremes.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
By what measure would emotivism show that I am speaking from preference? Additionally, and to weigh criticism of emotivism as far less than an absolute, I would add little more that Richard Brandt already has. Witnessing the torture and brutal execution of a living thing, and subsequently applying immediate ethical labelling, is far different and beyond a mere preference.


Moral relativism is splitting hairs, and more handles the "shades of grey" rather than in what manner moral definitions are applied. Yet in no culture will you find a view that murder is inherently good. In any instance, in any culture, what is defined as "good" and "bad" is the same; humans are social creatures, our entire psychological makeup is structured around community, and as such "good" and "bad" defines that which either aids or hinders to varying degrees and extremes.

What if I have another preference than you?
A murder is bad by definition. What about killing a human?
What about out groups?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
By what measure would emotivism show that I am speaking from preference?

Simplest answer and lack of evidence for objective morality. You are expressing your inner emotions when you say that something is immoral (or moral), no matter if objective morality exists.

Additionally, and to weigh criticism of emotivism as far less than an absolute, I would add little more that Richard Brandt already has. Witnessing the torture and brutal execution of a living thing, and subsequently applying immediate ethical labelling, is far different and beyond a mere preference.

How so?

Moral relativism is splitting hairs, and more handles the "shades of grey" rather than in what manner moral definitions are applied. Yet in no culture will you find a view that murder is inherently good. In any instance, in any culture, what is defined as "good" and "bad" is the same; humans are social creatures, our entire psychological makeup is structured around community, and as such "good" and "bad" defines that which either aids or hinders to varying degrees and extremes.

Would you say that our psychological makeup is what determines morality?
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Simplest answer and lack of evidence for objective morality.
So assumption on part of emotivism. In the given example, the obvious suffering of the dog is absolutely evidence.

When I was a child, I didn't like spinach. I thought it was gross and, in a word, bad. It's silly, looking back on that, as now not only is spinach tolerable, but I know it to be beneficially healthy as well. In a word, to me it's good. That's a preference. It doesn't make my views as a child wrong or incorrect, only different. Contrast this to my young adult views that were dismissive and senselessly critical of homosexuality. A view that, looking back on it, was formed not from any evidence or study but religious and ideological indoctrination. Objectively bad in that it was and is directly harmful to an entire demographic through following action.

Would you say that our psychological makeup is what determines morality?
Yes. As I stated before, morality is a higher intelligence sense.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So assumption on part of emotivism. In the given example, the obvious suffering of the dog is absolutely evidence.


When I was a child, I didn't like spinach. I thought it was gross and, in a word, bad. It's silly, looking back on that, as now not only is spinach tolerable, but I know it to be beneficially healthy as well. In a word, to me it's good. That's a preference. It doesn't make my views as a child wrong or incorrect, only different. Contrast this to my young adult views that were dismissive and senselessly critical of homosexuality. A view that, looking back on it, was formed not from any evidence or study but religious and ideological indoctrination. Objectively bad in that it was and is directly harmful to an entire demographic through following action.


Yes. As I stated before, morality is a higher intelligence sense.

So how come when tested in brain scans people have different morality?
 
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