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Please Define "Religion"

Fearing to define religion because one fears prejudice against religion does not seem intellectually honest to me.
There is a difference between religions, or religious concepts, an those that are not. That is why the category was born and we have academic departments dedicated solely to this topic.

It's not fear to define, but the observation that we can't define in a manner that demarcates religions from secular belief systems.

It's also not about "prejudice" but creating a category that confuses more than it enlightens. We can use the term as a shorthand for convenience, but if we are trying to identify a trans-cultural category in which we have "religious" and "secular" spheres that can be demarcated then it fails and ends up misleading.

Sorry for the long quote, but it's quicker than typing what I would say:

“It is a mistake to treat religion as a constant in human culture across time and space. None of the thinkers we examined in chapter 1 would deny that religion has taken a kaleidoscopic variety of forms across the centuries of human history. But each of the theories we examined in the first chapter is about religion as such. This indicates a distinction between essence and form; religion is religion in any era and any place, though it may take different outward forms..

A history of the term religion makes this assumption deeply problematic. Ancient languages have no word that approximates what modern English speakers mean by religion; Wilfred Cantwell Smith cites the scholarly consensus that neither the Greeks nor the Egyptians had any equivalent term for religion, and he adds that a similar negative conclusion is found for the Aztecs and the ancient civilizations of India, China, and Japan.9

The word is derived from the ancient Latin word religio, but religio was only one of a constellation of terms surrounding social obligations in ancient Rome, and when used it signified something quite different from religion in the modern sense.

Religio referred to a powerful requirement to perform some action. Its most probable derivation is from re-ligare, to rebind or relink, that is, to reestablish a bond that has been severed. To say religio mihi est—that something is “religio for me”—meant that it was something that carried a serious obligation for a person. This included not only cultic observances—which were themselves sometimes referred to as religiones, such that there was a different religio or set of observances at each shrine—
but also civic oaths and family rituals, things that modern Westerners normally consider to be secular.10

When religio did refer to temple sacrifices, it was possible—and common among certain intellectuals—in ancient Rome to practice religio, but not believe in the existence of gods...

Religio was largely indifferent to theological doctrine and was primarily about the customs and traditions that provided the glue for the Roman social order..

Religio was a relatively minor concept for the early Christians, in part because it does not correspond to any single concept that the biblical writers considered significant.”


The Myth of Religious Violence: Secular Ideology and the Roots of Modern Conflict - William Cavanaugh


The first Europeans to have contact with Mesoamerican cultures recognized religion in those societies. Why? Because they recognized elements they considered to be of Religion.

Yet these people themselves had no word that equates to religion. Don't you see that as problematic?

When outsiders try to define another's culture in terms of their own, then you get distortions and misunderstandings.

Religion - A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the cosmos, with manifestations of existence not bound by physical laws, which may include the existence of agencies not bound by physical laws, and such beliefs are held as true by Faith and do not require empirical verification.

See you are defining it in terms of beliefs held true by faith (as per the Protestant Christianity that shapes the worldview of the Anglophone world).

I will push back on this somewhat. Language, the words we use can change and evolve with the culture in which they are used. That this label Religion began in Christian cultures is perfectly fine. There were elements that defined what was meant by religion. In looking at other belief systems and finding they shared elements consider to be of Religion, it seems quite reasonable to me that the term would be used to encompass more than the diversity of Christian denominations.

Yes, they evolve in the culture they are used in based on a whole range of cultural assumptions.

It would be a mistake to assume these are universal (a common mistake of Western thought that is another legacy of monotheism).


I'll reply to the stuff about myth tomorrow (hopefully) :)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How do you call a religion that doesn't have a community?
I wouldn't call that a religion.

If I were the next Joseph Smith and nobody wanted to tag along with me, what would you call my set of beliefs and practices?
A less convincing fraud, I guess?

(I don't have a high opinion of Joseph Smith)
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
So assumption on part of emotivism. In the given example, the obvious suffering of the dog is absolutely evidence.

Evidence for what specifically?
I think I should clarify this point: I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to accept your parameters for what constitutes objective morality, as in that it has anything to do with suffering.

When I was a child, I didn't like spinach. I thought it was gross and, in a word, bad. It's silly, looking back on that, as now not only is spinach tolerable, but I know it to be beneficially healthy as well. In a word, to me it's good. That's a preference. It doesn't make my views as a child wrong or incorrect, only different. Contrast this to my young adult views that were dismissive and senselessly critical of homosexuality. A view that, looking back on it, was formed not from any evidence or study but religious and ideological indoctrination. Objectively bad in that it was and is directly harmful to an entire demographic through following action.

You dislike things that are harmful and like things that are beneficially healthy. Got it. A preference.
Sorry, I couldn't resist the urge to make the point this way. :p
In other words, you haven't shown that your morality is anything more than a preference. You have merely stated it along the lines of: I understand 'morality' and 'preference' along those two different lines, but you haven't show in what sensible way those lines are particularly distinct from each other. As far as I see it, they intersect.

Yes. As I stated before, morality is a higher intelligence sense.

What do you mean by 'sense'?
Like sight?
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Sorry, I couldn't resist the urge to make the point this way.
It's not making the point you think it's making.

I'm beginning to think this is going to go the same direction, Koldo - it's not that I'm not showing evidence of objectivity, but let's see if we can't move this along. Provide some example, any example, of objectivity within the confines of social moral function.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
It's not making the point you think it's making.

I'm beginning to think this is going to go the same direction, Koldo - it's not that I'm not showing evidence of objectivity, but let's see if we can't move this along. Provide some example, any example, of objectivity within the confines of social moral function.

You need to explain what you mean by 'social moral function'.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I wouldn't call that a religion.


A less convincing fraud, I guess?

(I don't have a high opinion of Joseph Smith)

Interesting. I would call it a religion, even with only one member. What I would not call a religion is any set of beliefs and practices that has nothing to do with the supernatural.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
No. I've done enough explaining and elaborating and I'm not going to entertain a whole zoo of sealions. The confines are self-explanatory, provide an example of objectivity.

If you can refer to where you have explained what you mean by 'social moral function', I can read what you have explained so far. But I have really no idea what that is supposed to mean.

If objectivity alone suffices, then I would claim the computer in front of me has an objective existence. Does that work?
If you mean objectivity as in moral existence, I would say that a moral law that exists irrespective of what anyone believes would be objective. I am afraid I have no actual examples to provide since I don't think such thing exists.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
If you mean objectivity as in moral existence, I would say that a moral law that exists irrespective of what anyone believes would be objective. I am afraid I have no actual examples to provide since I don't think such thing exists.
Your belief that something does or does not exist is not requisite to define that thing, or provide examples thereof. What would be an example of a moral law irrespective of belief?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Interesting. I would call it a religion, even with only one member.
Why?

What I would not call a religion is any set of beliefs and practices that has nothing to do with the supernatural.
IMO, "supernatural" is an incoherent concept, so I don't base my judgements of anything on whether it deals with "the supernatural".
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Your belief that something does or does not exist is not requisite to define that thing, or provide examples thereof. What would be an example of a moral law irrespective of belief?

The content of such kind of moral law could be anything.
I think I should elaborate: Objective moral laws are like discrete facts about existence out there to be found out, like the existence of planets and galaxies, like gravity and electromagnetism, except they don't refer to physical objects or phenomena. So, how is one supposed to figure them out? Some think that God, since he knows it all, knows all about moral facts and is therefore the only one truly able to say what they are.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member

Imagine a man that claims to have spoken with a deity of some kind. He wears some specific kind of clothing, and engages in practices like reciting prayers daily, and has certain beliefs about the afterlife, all because of what that deity told him. He does it every single day of his life, for 50 years, and then he dies. And no one else ever engaged in the same practices or had the same beliefs. How is what he did particularly different from a Christian, a Muslim or a Jew?
If it walks like a duck, eats like a duck, and swims like a duck, how is it not a duck? Must it be hang around other ducks to be a duck?

IMO, "supernatural" is an incoherent concept, so I don't base my judgements of anything on whether it deals with "the supernatural".

I am mostly using it here as the opposite of both 'mundane' and 'achieved through science'.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
The content of such kind of moral law could be anything.
No, such a law could not be applied to just anything.

It seems we need some solid definitions entered in. Linked for full definition, relevance provided. (That means I'm not going to post everything, only what clearly and definitively applies to morality and laws, objective good and objective bad.)

ob·jec·tive adj
  1. expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
  2. of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers: having reality independent of the mind
good adj - free from infirmity or sorrow
good noun - advancement of prosperity or well-being
evil adj - causing harm: pernicious
evil noun - something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity

With these clear definitions, what is objectively good and objectively bad can be known. Someone twisting a dog's leg off is objectively evil, regardless of the emotions that it invokes, as it is bringing suffering and distress to the dog, and this is observable by all. Providing shelter is objectively good, as it advances the well-being of those being housed, as observable by all. Good and evil can be objectively observed within society (as morality is a function of society), independent of a religious set of doctrines or divine mandate.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Imagine a man that claims to have spoken with a deity of some kind. He wears some specific kind of clothing, and engages in practices like reciting prayers daily, and has certain beliefs about the afterlife, all because of what that deity told him. He does it every single day of his life, for 50 years, and then he dies. And no one else ever engaged in the same practices or had the same beliefs. How is what he did particularly different from a Christian, a Muslim or a Jew?
He was not part of a community. A religion is a community of shared belief and practice.

If it walks like a duck, eats like a duck, and swims like a duck, how is it not a duck? Must it be hang around other ducks to be a duck?
Think more like, say, a club or a political party.

Or a crowd. Can one person be a crowd? What if that person does everything that a crowd of people do?


I am mostly using it here as the opposite of both 'mundane' and 'achieved through science'.
So something like "unlikely" and "not based in reason"? Sounds like a pretty damning definition.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
In and of itself, prostrating to the Sun by yourself isn't a religion.


Belief isn't action. Identity isn't action.


... for once.


Being part of a religion - a community of shared belief and practice - doesn't mean that absolutely every religious ritual has to be communal.
I feel like I'm becoming a bother with this so I'm not going to pursue it much further. You're saying that community is required. I disagree. Do you have any other reasons why I should adopt your point of view?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
No, such a law could not be applied to just anything.

I didn't say 'applied to just anything'. I mean it could be the case the murder is objectively moral... or immoral. The content of an objective moral law could be anything, but it doesn't apply to everything. It applies to moral agents.

It seems we need some solid definitions entered in. Linked for full definition, relevance provided. (That means I'm not going to post everything, only what clearly and definitively applies to morality and laws, objective good and objective bad.)

ob·jec·tive adj
  1. expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
  2. of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers: having reality independent of the mind
good adj - free from infirmity or sorrow
good noun - advancement of prosperity or well-being
evil adj - causing harm: pernicious
evil noun - something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity

With these clear definitions, what is objectively good and objectively bad can be known. Someone twisting a dog's leg off is objectively evil, regardless of the emotions that it invokes, as it is bringing suffering and distress to the dog, and this is observable by all. Providing shelter is objectively good, as it advances the well-being of those being housed, as observable by all. Good and evil can be objectively observed within society (as morality is a function of society), independent of a religious set of doctrines or divine mandate.

We mostly agree on the definition for 'objective', but I don't agree with the others.
I mean, your definition is also mostly how I personally use the terms good and evil, but not necessarily what those terms mean. The dictionary is descriptive about words and not prescriptive. If anything, a dictionary would reflect how any given culture uses a term.

So, we need to take a step back. Why would I accept the definitions you have presented for 'good' and 'evil'?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
He was not part of a community. A religion is a community of shared belief and practice.


Think more like, say, a club or a political party.

Or a crowd. Can one person be a crowd? What if that person does everything that a crowd of people do?

Thanks for using the word 'crowd'. I definitely don't think of religions as crowds.

So something like "unlikely" and "not based in reason"? Sounds like a pretty damning definition.

Somewhat like that. Without stuff like God, miracles, and beliefs in the afterlife, I would see every major religion as just ideologies.
 
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