Please Explain how Joseph Smith could have possibly authored the Book of Mormon.

[Starfish]

Any spirit that wants to cause problems.

Think about it...
How many people on this forum alone have accused the Mormons of worshiping a different Jesus than the "Biblical" Jesus?

Does that really make sense to you? The good done by the Mormon Church far out-weighs the ruffled feathers of the non-LDS.

So your best answer is "The Devil made him do it"? What did Joseph gain from all this?
Money? He never had any? Power? He was hunted, mocked, persecuted, and tortured. He lost children to death due to the persecution. He gave his life. Fame? He would have prefered to live quietly with his family.

 

[Runt]

Not to mention the assumption that the scribes did not 'up' the language.

I haven't read the Koran in its original language, and so I can't really speak to the degree of sophistication of its use of language. The Book of Mormon appears to be generally well-written, however.

 

[Starfish]

It works both ways too, that's why I can't accept this kind of evidence, there are channelers too who have written works well beyond their intellectual scope or time period even.

Name a book that has changed the life of millions. A book that is the basis of one of the fastest growing religions and has stood through generations of scrutiny and study.
Whose "author" gave his life for it.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

I admire what you are trying to do, Starfish, but an attempt to prove that the only way Joseph Smith could have produced the Book of Mormon is through divine revelation is never going to succeed.

Firstly, it depends on you being able to prove that the writing of the book is extraordinary. To do this, you have to discredit his education [even though he had a lack of formal education, he seemed to be pretty familiar with the Bible], demonstrate it was not plagiarised from other works at the time or the Bible [still a heated debate, and bits are credited as being taken from Isaiah], demonstrate he did the work solo [difficult] among other things.

Then, even if you were able to demonstrate it is an extraordinary feat (which in my opinion, it is) there is no way of determining the source of the extraordinariness. It's not altogether objectively possible to determine whether it is divine, evil or just blind luck. It's all down to personal opinion.

That said I do believe it to be a divinely inspired work, but to try and prove that objectively is, I fear, doomed to fail.

 

[Starfish]

These all sound like things a person could say about the Koran.... not sure what "evidence" you hope to reveal by this thread.....

Any evidence please. Anything. This is why we keep asking--because our critics keep claiming it, without giving evidence. The facts are ignored. It was impossible for Joseph to have come up with it out of his head.

I don't know anything about the Koran--so I don't express an opinion on it, or their religion.

 

[McBell]

Does that really make sense to you? The good done by the Mormon Church far out-weighs the ruffled feathers of the non-LDS.

Yes it makes sense to me.
Seems you have had a rather shelter life when it comes to the religious beliefs of others.

So your best answer is "The Devil made him do it"?

When did I say that?
You asked a question, I answered said question.
You really shouldn't jump to so many conclusions based upon your assumptions.

What did Joseph gain from all this?

Well, if we are going to go down the "what if" path...
What if he was not actually the stupid retard your OP makes him out to be?

Money? He never had any? Power? He was hunted, mocked, persecuted, and tortured. He lost children to death due to the persecution. He gave his life. Fame? He would have preferred to live quietly with his family.

What if the evil spirit tricked him into thinking it was from god?
You have this nasty habit of jumping all around in the same post without any indication that you are swapping subjects.

MY post was about the intentions of the spirit(s), yet you have turned it into being about the intentions of your prophet.

 

[McBell]

Name a book that has changed the life of millions. A book that is the basis of one of the fastest growing religions and has stood through generations of scrutiny and study.
Whose "author" gave his life for it.

L. Ron Hubbard.

Next question please.

 

[Starfish]

I admire what you are trying to do, Starfish, but an attempt to prove that the only way Joseph Smith could have produced the Book of Mormon is through divine revelation is never going to succeed.

Firstly, it depends on you being able to prove that the writing of the book is extraordinary. To do this, you have to discredit his education [even though he had a lack of formal education, he seemed to be pretty familiar with the Bible], demonstrate it was not plagiarised from other works at the time or the Bible [still a heated debate, and bits are credited as being taken from Isaiah], demonstrate he did the work solo [difficult] among other things.

Then, even if you were able to demonstrate it is an extraordinary feat (which in my opinion, it is) there is no way of determining the source of the extraordinariness. It's not altogether objectively possible to determine whether it is divine, evil or just blind luck. It's all down to personal opinion.

That said I do believe it to be a divinely inspired work, but to try and prove that objectively is, I fear, doomed to fail.

And why is it doomed? Too much at stake.
He did quote long sections from Isaiah; no one denies that. There are also parts from the Sermon on the Mount. Again, no denial. Anyone could say those parts were copied, and that's reasonable.
But what about the rest? No one has been able to duplicate it such a feat.

 

[Starfish]

L. Ron Hubbard.

Next question please.

Who ?

 

[McBell]

It was impossible for Joseph to have come up with it out of his head.

Yet you have yet to prove this.
You can't.

It is as misanthropic_clown stated:

"It's not altogether objectively possible to determine whether it is divine, evil or just blind luck. It's all down to personal opinion."
​

{ emphasis mine **

Now why it is you are presenting your personal opinion as fact is beyond me.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

And why is it doomed? Too much at stake.
He did quote long sections from Isaiah; no one denies that. There are also parts from the Sermon on the Mount. Again, no denial. Anyone could say those parts were copied, and that's reasonable.
But what about the rest? No one has been able to duplicate it such a feat.

Because as I said, even if it passes the objective tests of evidence pertaining to it being an extraordinary and unique work, there can still be subjective assertion concerning it being (divinely inspired/evilly inspired/lucky).

To persuade people of the objective element itself is very tough. To try and alter subjective opinion, next to impossible.

 

[McBell]

Who ?

L. Ron Hubbard<--LINK

Plus we can't forget:

Mohammad​

 

[McBell]

The thing is, Starfish, there are all manner of possible explanation for the how he came up with the Bom.
However, I for one do not believe that "possible explanation" means "this is the way it happened".

 

[Starfish]

In my opinion, a lying spirit. The bible does mention them.

Yes it makes sense to me.
Seems you have had a rather shelter life when it comes to the religious beliefs of others.


When did I say that?
You asked a question, I answered said question.
You really shouldn't jump to so many conclusions based upon your assumptions.


Well, if we are going to go down the "what if" path...
What if he was not actually the stupid retard your OP makes him out to be?


What if the evil spirit tricked him into thinking it was from god?
You have this nasty habit of jumping all around in the same post without any indication that you are swapping subjects.

MY post was about the intentions of the spirit(s), yet you have turned it into being about the intentions of your prophet.

Some mentioned "lying spirit", you say evil spirit, so that is how I came up with the devil. I assumed blaming lying and evil spirits is similar to blaming Satan. But whatever.

How am I jumping? I am just asking for a reasonable explanation of how he could have written it, and so far it's:
1. "evil/lying spirits".
2. Other people have done it, so it's not impossible.

Both answers have major problems.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Indeed, Starfish, but what their arguments are fundamentally lacking is also something that is fundamentally lacking from proposing a divinely inspired BOM: an objective means of differentiation.

I respect what you are doing, but this is something that can only really work when in discussion with other Mormons, or those heavily familiar with Mormon doctrine.

 

[Starfish]

L. Ron Hubbard<--LINK


Plus we can't forget:

Mohammad​

Thank you for the links. I looked at both. But I don't quite see the comparison, other than they all started religions. The Koran is a complilation of Mohammad's writings (his revelations from God) which I suppose, could be compared to Joseph writing the Doctrine and Covenants. And L. Ron Hubbard, was older, had more resourses, had education. Nothing he did was unexplanable.

I have nothing against either of these men. I just don't see their writings as a good comparison.

 

[Starfish]

Indeed, Starfish, but what their arguments are fundamentally lacking is also something that is fundamentally lacking from proposing a divinely inspired BOM: an objective means of differentiation.

I respect what you are doing, but this is something that can only really work when in discussion with other Mormons, or those heavily familiar with Mormon doctrine.

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

[McBell]

Some mentioned "lying spirit", you say evil spirit, so that is how I came up with the devil. I assumed blaming lying and evil spirits is similar to blaming Satan. But whatever.

How am I jumping? I am just asking for a reasonable explanation of how he could have written it, and so far it's:
1. "evil/lying spirits".
2. Other people have done it, so it's not impossible.

Both answers have major problems.

See post #35.

 

[Katzpur]

I admire what you are trying to do, Starfish, but an attempt to prove that the only way Joseph Smith could have produced the Book of Mormon is through divine revelation is never going to succeed.

Firstly, it depends on you being able to prove that the writing of the book is extraordinary. To do this, you have to discredit his education [even though he had a lack of formal education, he seemed to be pretty familiar with the Bible], demonstrate it was not plagiarised from other works at the time or the Bible [still a heated debate, and bits are credited as being taken from Isaiah], demonstrate he did the work solo [difficult] among other things.

Then, even if you were able to demonstrate it is an extraordinary feat (which in my opinion, it is) there is no way of determining the source of the extraordinariness. It's not altogether objectively possible to determine whether it is divine, evil or just blind luck. It's all down to personal opinion.

That said I do believe it to be a divinely inspired work, but to try and prove that objectively is, I fear, doomed to fail.

I agree with everything you've said, Clown (isn't there something better we could call you?) . Personally, it is inconceivable to me that Joseph Smith could have done what he did on his own. The book is, in my opinion, clearly an ancient record and is exactly what it purports to be. I don't expect to be able to convince anyone of that. As a matter of fact, I can pretty much guarantee that it won't be long before this thread becomes what all other threads over the years on this subject have become -- if it doesn't get closed first. I may possibly contribute a thought here and there, but I would agree with you that the proof of the Book of Mormon's claims lie within the message it teaches, and that message can only be confirmed by the witness of the Holy Ghost. Right now, I'm so sick and tired of defending my beliefs against the most recent attacks against it that I quite frankly don't care what people have to say anymore.

The thing is, Starfish, if we could have a totally objective debate on this subject it would be one thing. That, unfortunately, is impossible. People who don't believe that the Book of Mormon is scripture will simply ignore any and all "evidence" we could possibly provide. They will either get their responses from anti-Mormon websites, or else they will say something completely irrational such as, "Well, anybody could write a chapter-long chiasmus. That doesn't prove anything." It's just so frustrating being able to see what we see and yet be unable to get past the biases people have. If you don't know what I mean, believe me, you soon will.

 

[McBell]

Thank you for the links. I looked at both. But I don't quite see the comparison, other than they all started religions. The Koran is a complilation of Mohammad's writings (his revelations from God) which I suppose, could be compared to Joseph writing the Doctrine and Covenants. And L. Ron Hubbard, was older, had more resourses, had education. Nothing he did was unexplanable.

I have nothing against either of these men. I just don't see their writings as a good comparison.

Now you are changing the inquiry from:

Name a book that has changed the life of millions. A book that is the basis of one of the fastest growing religions and has stood through generations of scrutiny and study.
Whose "author" gave his life for it.

To which I answered:

L. Ron Hubbard<--LINK

Plus we can't forget:

Mohammad​

To:

Thank you for the links. I looked at both. But I don't quite see the comparison, other than they all started religions. The Koran is a complilation of Mohammad's writings (his revelations from God) which I suppose, could be compared to Joseph writing the Doctrine and Covenants. And L. Ron Hubbard, was older, had more resourses, had education. Nothing he did was unexplanable.

I have nothing against either of these men. I just don't see their writings as a good comparison.

It is not my fault that at least TWO examples exist that fit your original inquiry.
To be honest with you, none of the three did anything unexplainable.