• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Please Explain how Joseph Smith could have possibly authored the Book of Mormon.

McBell

Unbound
I agree with everything you've said, Clown (isn't there something better we could call you?) ;). Personally, it is inconceivable to me that Joseph Smith could have done what he did on his own. The book is, in my opinion, clearly an ancient record and is exactly what it purports to be. I don't expect to be able to convince anyone of that. As a matter of fact, I can pretty much guarantee that it won't be long before this thread becomes what all other threads over the years on this subject have become -- if it doesn't get closed first. I may possibly contribute a thought here and there, but I would agree with you that the proof of the Book of Mormon's claims lie within the message it teaches, and that message can only be confirmed by the witness of the Holy Ghost. Right now, I'm so sick and tired of defending my beliefs against the most recent attacks against it that I quite frankly don't care what people have to say anymore.

It is like I have said over and over..
No one has proven that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is wrong.
ALL they have done is shown how Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is DIFFERENT.
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
I don't understand what you're saying.

All I'm saying is that there is no real way for you to prove any one of these three options is better than the others:

1 - Joseph Smith was inspired of God

2- Joseph Smith was inspired by the Devil

3 - Joseph Smith got lucky

If anybody is originally attracted to any one of those ideas, like Katzpur has said, they won't be particularly receptive to evidence supporting the other two. It is more a matter of what your opinion is more than what little can be demonstrated factually.

For example, an atheist is inclined to say Joseph got lucky (or otherwise cheated) because the other two rely on the supernatural, and he/she will not be receptive to things trying to prove a supernatural element.

Oh, and Katzpur: Clown is fine. I picked the name because I tend not to take myself seriously. Being called a clown, therefore, serves to act as a reminder not to start bad habits now.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I agree with everything you've said, Clown (isn't there something better we could call you?) ;). Personally, it is inconceivable to me that Joseph Smith could have done what he did on his own. The book is, in my opinion, clearly an ancient record and is exactly what it purports to be. I don't expect to be able to convince anyone of that. As a matter of fact, I can pretty much guarantee that it won't be long before this thread becomes what all other threads over the years on this subject have become -- if it doesn't get closed first. I may possibly contribute a thought here and there, but I would agree with you that the proof of the Book of Mormon's claims lie within the message it teaches, and that message can only be confirmed by the witness of the Holy Ghost. Right now, I'm so sick and tired of defending my beliefs against the most recent attacks against it that I quite frankly don't care what people have to say anymore.

It saddens me that my Mormon brothers and sisters find themselves in positions, too often, where they feel the need to defend their beliefs. It's okay for people to simply agree to disagree on religious topics, including religious texts. It's sad when people place others in the position where they have to explain themselves over matters of faith.

Once,a beautiful Mormon I know mailed me a copy of the Book of Mormon. And I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Holy Spirit touched me as I read. Keep your chin up and know that though there are many who want you to put on the punching gloves over your faith...there are many, still, who simply love you for who you are and thank you for your testimony, even if the testimony slighly differs from their own.

In line with the OP, I don't know how Joseph Smith accomplished what he did. I know little of Joseph Smith. I don't know if he received divine guidance or not but I don't think it really matters. He has influenced so many lives for the better. Many have found Christ because of him. And for that...I say Amen.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
It saddens me that my Mormon brothers and sisters find themselves in positions, too often, where they feel the need to defend their beliefs. It's okay for people to simply agree to disagree on religious topics, including religious texts. It's sad when people place others in the position where they have to explain themselves over matters of faith.

Once,a beautiful Mormon I know mailed me a copy of the Book of Mormon. And I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Holy Spirit touched me as I read. Keep your chin up and know that though there are many who want you to put on the punching gloves over your faith...there are many, still, who simply love you for who you are and thank you for your testimony, even if the testimony slighly differs from their own.

In line with the OP, I don't know how Joseph Smith accomplished what he did. I know little of Joseph Smith. I don't know if he received divine guidance or not but I don't think it really matters. He has influenced so many lives for the better. Many have found Christ because of him. And for that...I say Amen.
What a lovely post.

I just wish some non-LDS would stop dismissing the BoM as a fictional work, written by a poor, uneducated young man. If they can't explain it, then they shouldn't try. I've been studying it (again) this year in depth, and continue to marvel over the sheer miracle of it.

And it's very true that the obvious is never obvious when we don't want it to be.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
What a lovely post.

I just wish some non-LDS would stop dismissing the BoM as a fictional work, written by a poor, uneducated young man. If they can't explain it, then they shouldn't try. I've been studying it (again) this year in depth, and continue to marvel over the sheer miracle of it.

And it's very true that the obvious is never obvious when we don't want it to be.
If people treat you with respect why does it really matter what they think of this book.

(if they don’t treat you with respect that is another matter)
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
fantôme profane;1159397 said:
If people treat you with respect why does it really matter what they think of this book.

(if they don’t treat you with respect that is another matter)
Point taken.

What I'm saying: I don't know anything about the Koran, so I don't express an opinion one way or another.

If someone is going to express a dismissal of the BoM as a fictional work by Joseph Smith, then they need to give sufficient evidence. Otherwise, say nothing.


Side note to my LDS friends: I fully realize that no one is ever converted by anything other than the Holy Ghost. All the evidences in the world do nothing, until a person is ready to listen to the Spirit.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It's okay for people to simply agree to disagree on religious topics, including religious texts.
You and I are absolute proof of that, aren't we Dawny? There are a number of doctrine on which we will probably never agree, and yet neither one of us feels as if anything at all would be gained by either of us trying to prove the other one wrong. If only all human beings were... "just Dawn."
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
A good deal has been said about the authorship—therefore, the divine origins—of the Book of Mormon. But then there has always been a lot said about it ever since it first rolled off the old E. B. Grandin press in downtown Palmyra, New York, on 26 March 1830.

Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson: “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church. But in like manner, if the Book of Mormon be true—and millions have now testified that they have the witness of the Spirit that it is indeed true—then one must accept the claims of the Restoration and all that accompanies it.

“Yes, the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion—the keystone of our testimony, the keystone of our doctrine, and the keystone in the witness of our Lord and Savior” (A Witness and a Warning, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1988, page 19).

To hear someone so remarkable say something so tremendously bold, so overwhelming in its implications, that everything in the Church—everything—rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith’s account of how it came forth, can be a little breathtaking. It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward.

Not everything in life is so black and white, but it seems the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and its keystone role in our belief is exactly that. Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those.

I feel about this as C. S. Lewis once said about the divinity of Christ: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: [that is,] ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to” (Mere Christianity, New York: The Macmillan Company, 1960, pages 40–41).

I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is, or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all. But let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically.

As the word of God has always been—and I testify again that is purely and simply and precisely what the Book of Mormon is—this record is “quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow” (D&C 6:2). The Book of Mormon is that quick and that powerful for us. And it certainly is that sharp. Nothing in our history and nothing in our message cuts to the chase faster than our uncompromising declaration that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. On this issue we draw a line in the sand.

May I make it very clear where I stand regarding Joseph Smith, a stance taken because of the Book of Mormon. I testify out of the certainty of my soul that Joseph Smith entertained an angel and received at his hand an ancient set of gold plates. I testify of that as surely as if I had, with the three witnesses, seen the angel Moroni or, with the three and the eight witnesses, seen and handled the plates.

It was the Book of Mormon that changed my life, told me the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored, and immersed me in the Church, heart and soul. I hold it in a category sacred to me among all the world’s literature. It stands preeminent in my intellectual and spiritual life, the classic of all classics, a reaffirmation of the Holy Bible, a voice from the dust, a witness for Christ, the word of the Lord unto salvation.

Jeffery R. Holland's talk on the Autheticity of the BoM
 

McBell

Unbound
It is amazing that a faith founded on the principle that every other Christian church is apostate feels the need to play the martyr. :shrug:
I agree.
However if you are attempting to imply that Mormons are one of those groups then I strongly suggest you look on this very forum for the nonsense attacks on the LDS.
To make it easy look for threads started by Fish-hunter and uss_bigd
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
I agree.
However if you are attempting to imply that Mormons are one of those groups then I strongly suggest you look on this very forum for the nonsense attacks on the LDS.
To make it easy look for threads started by Fish-hunter and uss_bigd
True enough... and my LDS friends know I've done my share of defending them.... but my point was (and they know this) their faith is based upon our "apostasy", so I'm sure in some small way they expect to get a little "flak".
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
Some mentioned "lying spirit", you say evil spirit, so that is how I came up with the devil. I assumed blaming lying and evil spirits is similar to blaming Satan. But whatever.

How am I jumping? I am just asking for a reasonable explanation of how he could have written it, and so far it's:
1. "evil/lying spirits".
2. Other people have done it, so it's not impossible.

Both answers have major problems.
Starfish, why would God have Joseph Smith translate plates? Why didn't God just speak or dictate the contents of the plates or even inspire Joseph Smith with His own revelation rather than relying on past historical writings? Wouldn't there have been less of a chance of error if God spoke to Joseph Smith directly? Would the Book Of Mormon have been just as impressive without the ordeal of digging up plates, translating them and then returning them? The only reason I ask is because I didn't have to go through this ordeal to receive my revelation from GOD.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
Starfish, why would God have Joseph Smith translate plates? Why didn't God just speak or dictate the contents of the plates or even inspire Joseph Smith with His own revelation rather than relying on past historical writings? Wouldn't there have been less of a chance of error if God spoke to Joseph Smith directly? Would the Book Of Mormon have been just as impressive without the ordeal of digging up plates, translating them and then returning them? The only reason I ask is because I didn't have to go through this ordeal to receive my revelation from GOD.
Wouldn't it be easier if God just downloaded the Bible into everyone's head?
 

Smoke

Done here.
All I'm saying is that there is no real way for you to prove any one of these three options is better than the others:

1 - Joseph Smith was inspired of God

2- Joseph Smith was inspired by the Devil

3 - Joseph Smith got lucky
I don't believe any of those things. :D
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Starfish, why would God have Joseph Smith translate plates? Why didn't God just speak or dictate the contents of the plates or even inspire Joseph Smith with His own revelation rather than relying on past historical writings? Wouldn't there have been less of a chance of error if God spoke to Joseph Smith directly? Would the Book Of Mormon have been just as impressive without the ordeal of digging up plates, translating them and then returning them? The only reason I ask is because I didn't have to go through this ordeal to receive my revelation from GOD.

Actually, it's quite simple, He did in fact write revelations of his own which we now know as the Doctrine and Covenants.

also, you forget that we believe in continuing revelation to his servants the prophets. meanign every 6 months when we have general conference, those talks are inspired directly by the holy spirit. and in some cases new revelation is given that is relevant to our current economic or social situations. Like Pornography for instance, It is an addiction and a filthy Evil of this world but there is nothing in the Bible, BoM, or Doctrine and covenants on this particular subject. So there was a need for continuing revelation on the subject ebcause new things pop up every day that we didn't have before.

And Cardero, I'm sure you can recieve personal revelation for yourself and your family, just as everyone else on this planet can, according to the will of God. But i reject the notion that you recieve revelation for the planet as a whole because, i believe that role is filled currently by Thomas S. Monson, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
I feel about this as C. S. Lewis once said about the divinity of Christ: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: [that is,] ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to” (Mere Christianity, New York: The Macmillan Company, 1960, pages 40–41).

I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is, or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all. But let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically.

This is my favorite part of a talk by Jeffrey R. Holland.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Starfish, why would God have Joseph Smith translate plates? Why didn't God just speak or dictate the contents of the plates or even inspire Joseph Smith with His own revelation rather than relying on past historical writings? Wouldn't there have been less of a chance of error if God spoke to Joseph Smith directly? Would the Book Of Mormon have been just as impressive without the ordeal of digging up plates, translating them and then returning them? The only reason I ask is because I didn't have to go through this ordeal to receive my revelation from GOD.

God seems to prefer records. This is how we have the Bible. We believe that more records will be "discovered" that will tell of many people who have had the gospel revealed to them, and of other visits by Christ to teach them the truth. We will discover that God has indeed been very active in the affairs of this world, throughout history.
We do have a lot of revelation from God without "this ordeal". We have another volume of scripture that came as direct revelation to our modern prophets: The Doctrine and Covenants. So we have revelation past and present. Between the BoM, Bible, the D&C, and continuing revelation through our prophet, we have a very solid foundation.
 
Top