Please Explain How Our Most Noble Species of Poo-flinging Super-Chimps Evolved a Sense of Beauty?

[Sunstone]

Just curious why or how our species of super-sized chimpanzees evolved into folks who can find beauty in a flower, a sunrise, a child's face, etc.? What is the evolutionary advantage of having a sense of beauty? That is, why would someone with a sense of beauty have a significantly greater chance of passing on his or her genes than someone without?

Bonus Question: What brain mechanism, if any, is responsible for the blissful ecstasy that @Debater Slayer feels when reading, in a letter or note from his beloved, a perfectly punctuated paragraph?

 

[BSM1]

Just curious why or how our species of super-sized chimpanzees evolved into folks who can find beauty in a flower, a sunrise, a child's face, etc.? What is the evolutionary advantage of having a sense of beauty? That is, why would someone with a sense of beauty have a significantly greater chance of passing on his or her genes than someone without?

Bonus Question: What brain mechanism, if any, is responsible for the blissful ecstasy that @Debater Slayer feels when reading, in a letter or note from his beloved, a perfectly punctuated paragraph?

Whoa, easy there King of the J. Beauty is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Beauty, or the sense of, is subjective and totally relative. Some folk may ooh and aah while staring at a poop-stained wall and completely ignore a cubed Picasso. Just my two cents worth.

 

[Sunstone]

Whoa, easy there King of the J. Beauty is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Beauty, or the sense of, is subjective and totally relative. Some folk may ooh and aah while staring at a poop-stained wall and completely ignore a cubed Picasso. Just my two cents worth.

I'll grant that beauty is subjective -- or at least, largely so -- but the question is how a sense of it arose in us in the first place? Do you see the distinction? Even if beauty were wholly subjective, the fact that we each of us seem to have a sense that at least some things are beautiful would logically remain a fact in need of an explanation.

 

[BSM1]

I'll grant that beauty is subjective -- or at least, largely so -- but the question is how a sense of it arose in us in the first place? Do you see the distinction? Even if beauty were wholly subjective, the fact that we each of us seems to have a sense that at least some things are beautiful would logically remain a fact in need of an explanation.

I get what you're saying. And my post makes your question even more intriguing.

 

[Quintessence]

Not every trait needs to convey an evolutionary advantage. A great number of attributes are "neutral" in the majority of circumstances, or happenstance piggybackers alongside other things (e.g., X is there because it's connected to Y, and Y is helpful).

That said, on the whole I think boiling down the meaning of life to such a question is... let's just say I find it highly disagreeable.

 

[Sunstone]

Not every trait needs to convey an evolutionary advantage. A great number of attributes are "neutral" in the majority of circumstances, or happenstance piggybackers alongside other things (e.g., X is there because it's connected to Y, and Y is helpful).

Very good point. I was wondering about that. Evolutionary spandrels and all.

That said, on the whole I think boiling down the meaning of life to such a question is... let's just say I find it highly disagreeable.

Not sure what planet that remark originated from. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with the rest of the thread. So what am I missing?

 

[Revoltingest]

A sense of beauty originates in the evolutionary advantage of pattern recognition.
Aspects of it....
- Facial symmetry is linked to better genetics.
- Efficiency of tool design is a relationship between appearance & function.

 

[Sunstone]

A sense of beauty originates in the evolutionary advantage of pattern recognition.
Aspects of it....
- Facial symmetry is linked to better genetics.
- Efficiency of tool design is a relationship between appearance & function.

That makes a lot of sense, but why would a sunrise seem beautiful though? Where's the symmetry? The efficiency?

 

[BSM1]

Not every trait needs to convey an evolutionary advantage. A great number of attributes are "neutral" in the majority of circumstances, or happenstance piggybackers alongside other things (e.g., X is there because it's connected to Y, and Y is helpful).

That said, on the whole I think boiling down the meaning of life to such a question is... let's just say I find it highly disagreeable.

I am thinking about your statement in relation to the sense of beauty thingy. Although I don't disagree with what you're saying I do think that having a sense of beauty has given humans a boost on the evol ladder. IMO, a sense of beauty has allowed and forced us to at least stop and look at our surroundings before deciding if we are going to destroy or revere what we see. I feel that, for the most part, this curiosity has contributed to the plus side of man's elective evolutionary growth.

 

[Revoltingest]

That makes a lot of sense, but why would a sunrise seem beautiful though? Where's the symmetry? The efficiency?

What we evolved to benefit us, is a way (& a desire) to see things.
This way, happens to apply more broadly.
But perhaps attraction to a sunrise, a nice day or a starry nite give us evolutionary advantages I don't know of.

Symmetry.....it is attractive.
But it isn't the only feature which makes us sense beauty.
And even asymmetry has its appeal at times.
Clearly, it's complicated.

 

[metis]

Please Explain How Our Most Noble Species of Poo-flinging Super-Chimps Evolved a Sense of Beauty?

Whaddya talking about, there's still plenty of poo-flinging around here.

 

[Revoltingest]

Whaddya talking about, there's still plenty of poo-flinging around here.

But one can express beauty in one's manner of flinging.
I prefer a post-modern expressionist style.
I've been called the "Jackson Pollock of poop".

 

[metis]

But one can express beauty in one's manner of flinging.
I prefer a post-modern expressionist style.
I've been called the "Jackson Pollock of poop".

I sorta like the "single-finger poop-fling" as I can send two messages at the same time.

 

[Penumbra]

-Appreciation of human beauty is related to health and fertility. People say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which is partly true, but on a statistical level, some traits are almost universally attractive, and even babies respond differently to what is largely considered an attractive face compared to an unattractive face. Youth, symmetry, clear skin, healthy hair, bright eyes, waist/hip ratios for women and v-shaped torsos for men, height for men, athleticism for men and also for women, absence of noticeable disease or trouble, and defined secondary sexual characteristics, are very commonly thought of as attractive and are also related to health and fertility. A child's face is beautiful in the sense that we're drawn to nurture things that are cute, like kittens and especially our own children.

-Beauty in nature is often related to survival. As a species, we love flowers and pretty colors, and sunny days in lush environments, and they're associated with living, healthy environments. People are repulsed by feces, swampy poisonous water, signs of disease in people or animals or plants, lifeless and dirty environments, etc. We're inclined to move away from ugly situations towards beautiful situations. Even beautiful wintertime scenes or deserts are typically quite alive and healthy environments.

-A subset of that last point is that humans are drawn towards open spaces. We love being on mountains, standing on open fields, sitting in clearings in forests, and other spaces where we can see for a fair distance. Some people believe this is related to the fact that when we can see further, we are more protected from predators, because a human group with weapons can pretty much only be brought down by predators if surprised, like in a jungle.

There are probably differences between visual beauty and intellectual or emotional beauty, like we may enjoy a painting of something ugly because it speaks to us in some way. Beyond a certain point, and when you start getting into the rarer exceptions, it gets complicated.

 

[Ouroboros]

Just curious why or how our species of super-sized chimpanzees evolved into folks who can find beauty in a flower, a sunrise, a child's face, etc.?

Who said we stopped slinging poo? It just changed names. It's called Internet forums now.

What is the evolutionary advantage of having a sense of beauty? That is, why would someone with a sense of beauty have a significantly greater chance of passing on his or her genes than someone without?

I think sense of beauty is strongly related to sexual selection. Like peacocks and other animals evolving colorful, ornamental features, to attract the female. It's a way for the gene to win out over another.

We also are turned on or attracted to specific smells and pheromones. It's not just that we see beauty in the world, color, shapes, etc, but also in taste, smell, touch, and ideas.

Bonus Question: What brain mechanism, if any, is responsible for the blissful ecstasy that @Debater Slayer feels when reading, in a letter or note from his beloved, a perfectly punctuated paragraph?

That's a good question. Our language abilities are so recent evolved, I assume it comes from the same selective benefits that well spoken persons have greater chance of success in life and we've evolved to recognize that? Maybe.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

As I read the OP, I see an implicit assumption that suggests that just because we are hominids that on occasion like to stir the s*** and sometimes give it a flight, that we should not have a sense of beauty, as if they are somehow mutually exclusive. I see no conflict in us doing both, sometimes at the same time.

I also see the implicit assumption that our differently-evolved great ape cousins--who have demonstrated the talent for s***-tossing, at least in captivity-- (and perhaps other species as well) DON'T share our appreciation of beauty: it has been recognized that chimps, elephants, birds, etc., have been observed engaging in the behavior of stopping to watch a sunset or simply gaze at scenery in a manner that if it were a human engaging in that behavior, we would assume they were using their sense of beauty. Some great apes that have been taught sign language or to communicate using symbols on a computer (such as Koko the gorilla) have expressed appreciation for things that humans generally consider beautiful or attractive.

And, what @Ouroboros and @Penumbra said while I was writing this.

 

[Ouroboros]

Oh, @beenherebeforeagain 's post made me thing. Perhaps this could be a part of the explanation as well.

I think there's some theory that we evolved color sight because it helped us recognize healthier food, fruits, bugs, etc. Not sure how solid the theory is, but could it be possible that we evolved a sense of "Oh, that's beautiful" for the purpose of recognizing healthy food, environments, and such?

 

[Sunstone]

As I read the OP, I see an implicit assumption that suggests that just because we are hominids that on occasion like to stir the s*** and sometimes give it a flight, that we should not have a sense of beauty, as if they are somehow mutually exclusive. I see no conflict in us doing both, sometimes at the same time.

I also see the implicit assumption that our differently-evolved great ape cousins--who have demonstrated the talent for s***-tossing, at least in captivity-- (and perhaps other species as well) DON'T share our appreciation of beauty: it has been recognized that chimps, elephants, birds, etc., have been observed engaging in the behavior of stopping to watch a sunset or simply gaze at scenery in a manner that if it were a human engaging in that behavior, we would assume they were using their sense of beauty. Some great apes that have been taught sign language or to communicate using symbols on a computer (such as Koko the gorilla) have expressed appreciation for things that humans generally consider beautiful or attractive.

And, what @Ouroboros and @Penumbra said while I was writing this.

Neither of the two assumptions you mention are ones that I actually make. It's only that I have poorly chosen my words in this case.

 

[Sunstone]

Oh, @beenherebeforeagain 's post made me thing. Perhaps this could be a part of the explanation as well.

I think there's some theory that we evolved color sight because it helped us recognize healthier food, fruits, bugs, etc. Not sure how solid the theory is, but could it be possible that we evolved a sense of "Oh, that's beautiful" for the purpose of recognizing healthy food, environments, and such?

Could very well be. I've read papers that hypothesized we evolved color vision to better locate fruits, and especially fruits in season.

 

[Ouroboros]

Could very well be. I've read papers that hypothesized we evolved color vision to better locate fruits, and especially fruits in season.

Right. That's the one. So, perhaps the feelings are related to it. "Feel good" is the indicator that makes the non-verbal animal able to make a decision "I want to eat it." kind'a thing.