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poll: are you an ape?

are you an ape?


  • Total voters
    71

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No need to be sorry for your thoughts friend - .. for your beliefs ... that is another matter but first to our thoughts about EL -- High God of the Canaanite Pantheon .. obviously the God being worshiped in Jerusalem at the time being a Canaanite City .. alongside the Patron God Zedek.

So when the Priest-King of Jerusalem comes out to meet Abraham -- a King who (as was normally the case) takes the name of the Patron God of the city -- Melchi-Zedek -- and Abraham Submits to this High Priest .. and worship El- Oliun - The Supreme God .. the Supreme One -- that God is EL .. as Melchi-Zedek is a Priest of the Most High God.

Now perhaps this was YHWH in disguise .. but Abe and Melchi-Zedek do not worship a God by the name YHWH. The claim that this is YHWH masqurading as EL is both desperate and silly .. and should not be listened to and is in fact a claim contradicted by Deut 32:8 ... where EL divides up the nations among his 70 sons .. YHWH's portion is Israel .. YHWH is thus a Son of EL .. not EL himself.

...

800 Years after Abraham .. the Priestly line of Zedek continues in Jerusalem .. now under Jebusite control .. a branch of Canaanite like the Israelites are a branch of Canaanite .. brothers and sisters fighting each other essentially. The King of Jerusalem when David Shows up is Adoni-Zedek -- "My Lord is Zedek"

and what happens to this Priestly Line ? --- Tell me True .. Tell me Why .. it is not replaced with the Priests of YHWH ? .. but oh No No... Not only is King David .. like Jesus .. made a Priest forever in the Order of Melchi-Zedek .. but Jesus is also a High Priest Forever in the Order of Melchi-Zedek

It is a Priest by the name of "Zadok" -- go figure -- who annoints King Solomon.. Zadok being the Jebusite High Priest of Jerusalem under Adoni-Zedek .. the High Priest Assigned by David to continue after he took the city.
Since El generally is associated with God, seems the Israelites took the word and worked it into their system of thinking, concluding that their God was also Elohim (God in the plural), higher than all the other gods. And we know Hebrew was originally written without vowels so the four Hebrew letters for the name of God (their God) was YHWH or as often translated Yahweh or Jehovah, depending on recognition. I'm sure you're aware of that. And that name can mean He is. Or "I am" or something similar.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No. If you follow your lineage back, ancestor to ancestor, you will never find a lemur.
Lineages fork, they branch off, there is not a single line of descent for all extant organisms.
I don’t fork… I’m more of a knife
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But everything "might be possible." Most conceivable things, though, are highly unlikely.
The reasonable approach is not to hold a provisional belief in everything, but to believe what there is objective evidence of, and defer belief in all, yet unevidenced things.

I don't see it as believing in everything, although I do respect people's right to believe whatever they wish. I don't see any real harm in listening or exploring a belief, even if it's an abstract and highly unlikely scenario. As long as nobody is forced to believe something.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I don't see it as believing in everything, although I do respect people's right to believe whatever they wish. I don't see any real harm in listening or exploring a belief, even if it's an abstract and highly unlikely scenario. As long as nobody is forced to believe something.
I'm with you on that one. I don't want to censor creationists, flat Earthers or UFOlogists but I reserve the right to respond to their ridiculous ideas with ridicule, snark and mockery. When they misrepresent science with a straight face they get two or three chances to listen to reason and facts but if they don't take that chance it's open season.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Now perhaps this was YHWH in disguise .. but Abe and Melchi-Zedek do not worship a God by the name YHWH. The claim that this is YHWH masqurading as EL is both desperate and silly .. and should not be listened to and is in fact a claim contradicted by Deut 32:8 ... where EL divides up the nations among his 70 sons .. YHWH's portion is Israel .. YHWH is thus a Son of EL .. not EL himself.
I believe YHWH is the same as EL, because of this scripture:

And God [Elohim] spoke to Moses and said to him, I am Jehovah [YHWH]. And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God [El] Almighty, and by My name JEHOVAH I never made Myself known to them.
Ex. 6:2-3

I don't think it means God was masquerading, he just has a second name.

To claim that the Sons of this Supreme one that Abe was worshiping are humans .. means that the Supreme one that Abe and Melchi-Zedek was worshiping was a human... and thus you have Reduced God down to a human.
No, I don't mean God is a human. I mean only that beings that are not God, can be called sons of god.

and so it matters ZERO .. to the meaning of the Psalm .. what you think .. or what you believe the Psalm is saying .. What matters is what the people of the Day thought the Psalm was saying .. what they belived .
But, how do we know what they thought?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm with you on that one. I don't want to censor creationists, flat Earthers or UFOlogists but I reserve the right to respond to their ridiculous ideas with ridicule, snark and mockery. When they misrepresent science with a straight face they get two or three chances to listen to reason and facts but if they don't take that chance it's open season.
What do you mean by censor?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
What do you mean by censor?
Making laws that forbid them from disseminating their lies. Science is not a person, a scientist can't and shouldn't be able to sue them for libel. Correcting them is the way to go and ridiculing them is an option. Banning them from the halls of science and education is also OK as they are neither scientific nor educational but other than that, let them speak and then show how they are wrong.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Making laws that forbid them from disseminating their lies. Science is not a person, a scientist can't and shouldn't be able to sue them for libel. Correcting them is the way to go and ridiculing them is an option. Banning them from the halls of science and education is also OK as they are neither scientific nor educational but other than that, let them speak and then show how they are wrong.
It's almost like medication. If a company puts out a medication, it's tested and perhaps approved by the government for dissemination by doctors. In other words, some people benefit from it, and some do not.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Making laws that forbid them from disseminating their lies. Science is not a person, a scientist can't and shouldn't be able to sue them for libel. Correcting them is the way to go and ridiculing them is an option. Banning them from the halls of science and education is also OK as they are neither scientific nor educational but other than that, let them speak and then show how they are wrong.
Further, someone else here brought up about Bible prophecy and Babylon. People like William Tyndale, the Bible translator, were actually hounded by religious leaders because he dared translate the Bible. He was put to death (censored, perhaps?).
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
It's almost like medication. If a company puts out a medication, it's tested and perhaps approved by the government for dissemination by doctors. In other words, some people benefit from it, and some do not.
Medication isn't the right comparison, snake oil fits better. It doesn't benefit anyone but the seller and if someone feels improvement it is because of the placebo effect. (And they may try to convince others although it can be objectively proven that they are wrong.)
One thing where the comparison doesn't fit is that you are still allowed to sell snake oil but you are not allowed to lie about it.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I have a saying. A tree that doesn't have roots can't stand on it's own or at all. And if it manages to cut/remove itself away from it's roots it falls.

In other words, you should fork like the rest of us. :p
I think we are trying to find out our roots. My roots come from God. :) Maybe other people have different roots?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I lean in the direction that my roots likely go back to "Spinoza's God", which is similar to my old Signature Statement: "Whatever caused this universe/multiverse I'll call 'God' and pretty much just leave it at that".

However, I have to admit that I rarely "just leave it at that". ;)
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
I believe YHWH is the same as EL, because of this scripture:

And God [Elohim] spoke to Moses and said to him, I am Jehovah [YHWH]. And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God [El] Almighty, and by My name JEHOVAH I never made Myself known to them.
Ex. 6:2-3

I don't think it means God was masquerading, he just has a second name.


No, I don't mean God is a human. I mean only that beings that are not God, can be called sons of god.


But, how do we know what they thought?

El-Almighty "El -Elyon" is an improper Translation -- not that it matters much but El who suffices "El Shaddie is the Translation chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo6.pdf .. but, as stated no worries to the central point unless you wish to get into the Twin Peaks kind of Sufficing where YHWH not only has a differnt name .. but a different sex. .. apologies for the digression.

So what you are suggesting it that YHWH was running around using a different name during the time of Abraham and the Patriarchs and that the other name YHWH chose to use was the Supreme God of the Phonecian/Canaanite Pantheon EL.

and sorry .. but yes .. this means that God was impersonating the Supreme God EL and/or YHWH is the Enlil of the Sumerian Pantheon.

Well -- that solves everything now doesn't it :) YHWH is a trickster God .. who can't figure out who he wants to be from one day to the next .... giving one command one day .. and contradicting himself the next .. which perhaps is Fitting for this anthropomorphic God .. who is extremely Jealous of the other Sons of God and in fact a God who defines himself by this Jealousy .. declaring that his name is Jealousy ... which I suppose we could say is another name "Jealousy" .. but this is not the name of a rival God.

and No .. beings who are not God .. are not being called Sons of God .. In Genesis 6 - Nor Job 1 - Nor Psalm 82 .. where it is not Humans up in heaven.. nor minor divinities such as angels who YHWH refers to as Gods "Yea are Elohim" -- followed by "Sons of the Supreme one"

Now obviously and according to the consensus of modern Theological scholarship .. "the Supreme one" is EL -- as we are in the "Congregation of EL" .. The Divine Council of EL -- and every living soul for thousands of miles in every direction .. knows what the Divine Congregation of EL is. .. OK ? and we know this for a fact .. as we can read about the religious beliefs of all these peoples .. in great detail .. written, in the case of the Canaanites and Phonecians .. in the language of the Israelites.

But - let us for a moment go with your claim that YHWH .. is the Supreme God EL .. head of the Divine Council being referred to as "EL-Oliun" -- God Supreme .. !! in Verse 6. This then means these Sons of God are Sons of YHWH .. aka Trickster God Loki .. and obviously your hypothesis completely false apart .. contradicting your hopes and dreams that the "Sons of God" .. are not actually "Sons of God" ..

Have you actually read Psalm 82 ? Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 82 - New English Translation , and I have been kind enough to cite some relevant footnotes for you ..

The phrase עֲדַת אֵל (ʿadat ʾel, “assembly of El”) appears only here in the OT.
The present translation assumes this is a reference to the Canaanite high god El, who presided over the Canaanite divine assembly. (See Isa 14:13, where El’s assembly is called “the stars of El.”) In the Ugaritic myths the phrase ʿdt ʾilm refers to the “assembly of the gods,” who congregate in King Kirtu’s house, where Baal asks El to bless Kirtu’s house.

The problem is that while you may wish to believe in monotheism .. and therefor there can't be other Gods that YHWH is defeating .. this is not about wht you wish ... nor about you believe ... this is about what the Israelites listening to this Psalm while at the Temple of YHWH believed .. and these folks know exactly what is going on in the story .. That their Patron God has defeated the other Gods .. in order to become Cheif God on Earth .. usurping the position that EL previously held .. El having moved up a level to Chief in the Heavens .. Son YHWH in charge of the Earth.

This Story is the Exact Same .. for every other Patron War God .. Every City having their own Champion .. Son of EL .. Much of the story of the Bible is the Battle between YHWH and these other Gods .. for those that take the time to read the book .. as opposed to strict reliance on man made dogma .. perhaps with a few cherry picked misinterperated passages.

There is no serious theologian .. biblical scholar .. intellectual .. who is not forced to admit that by all accounts .. the Israelites were raging Pagans in general .. and the few who did worship YHWH (which by definition at the time included the worship of Asherah and others) at minimum believed in the existence of other Gods .. just choosing to elevate YHWH over the others.

Whilst listening to Psalm 82 being Sung in a Temple of YHWH ~ 900 BC - tell me of the other sights and activities .. paying particular attention to the male temple prostitutes .. and the female ones.. .. be sure to smell the incense .. and take a deep breath of the Hash oil burning atop the Asherah Standing Stone - Goddess of Heaven .. and be sure to try one of those famous cakes .. and now tell me again about the Sons of the Supreme one that are defeated by Mighty YHWH.. usurping the position of EL as Cheif Deity on Earth.

Then go to Job .. and tell me who the Chief God of the Earth is .. mentioned by Name if you please :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I think we are trying to find out our roots. My roots come from God. :) Maybe other people have different roots?
:) I love my family, too, and I agree with you that my roots come from God. :) We'll see what the future brings regarding my close genetic family members. I hope I can rejoice with them. If not, I know God will provide.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Medication isn't the right comparison, snake oil fits better. It doesn't benefit anyone but the seller and if someone feels improvement it is because of the placebo effect. (And they may try to convince others although it can be objectively proven that they are wrong.)
One thing where the comparison doesn't fit is that you are still allowed to sell snake oil but you are not allowed to lie about it.
Yes, medication is the right comparison. You can obviously say what you want, but many medications are supposedly working for some while causing bad side effects or no good reaction for others. Snake oil might be when some people claim to be a medium and talk to the dead.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Making laws that forbid them from disseminating their lies. Science is not a person, a scientist can't and shouldn't be able to sue them for libel. Correcting them is the way to go and ridiculing them is an option. Banning them from the halls of science and education is also OK as they are neither scientific nor educational but other than that, let them speak and then show how they are wrong.
Science is backed and promoted by persons. "Beyond honest errors and errors caused through negligence are a third category of errors: those that involve deception. Making up data or results (fabrication), changing or misreporting data or results (falsification), and using the ideas or words of another person without giving appropriate credit (plagiarism)—all strike at the heart of the values on which science is based." Misconduct in Science - On Being a Scientist - NCBI Bookshelf.
 
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