Poll: Give up your religion to save a stranger

[Unveiled Artist]

"I'm not a writer because I believe in writing. Anyone have interest in writing. I am a writer because I do write. I write everyday."

That is why I am a writer: I write. It is no longer a belief. It is an action.

"I'm not a Buddha because I know the Dharma. Anyone can know the Dharma. I'm a Buddha because I practice the Dharma. I practice the Dharma everyday."

That is why I am a Buddha: I follow the Dharma. It is no longer knowledge. It is an action.

"I wasn't a Catholic because I believed in Christ. Anyone can believe in Christ. I was a Catholic because I practiced Christ's teachings. I had practiced his teachings everyday."

That was why I had believed in Christ: I practiced his teachings. It was no longer a belief. It had became an action.

How do you follow you religion if your beliefs are not actions?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

How?

Technically, you can believe in God and not listen to anything He wants, I suppose. Belief in existence has nothing to do with obedience or if the deity is worth worshipping.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Technically, you can believe in God and not listen to anything He wants, I suppose. Belief in existence has nothing to do with obedience or if the deity is worth worshipping.

Em. Kinda reminds me of that familar phrase "even satan knows the scriptures..." (or something to that affect)

I do wanna know how one can "just believe" and it is true. Do people actully believe something to be true?

 

[arthra]

I was thinking of this thread earlier and came across a quote attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib ... Ali was asked

"How will you cope with a time ...in which God's elite will be hunted down and God's enemies pledged allegiance to?

He replied:

Be like the followers of Jesus...who were hacked to pieces with saws and crucified with planks of wood for believing

"Being killed for refusing to renounce God is better than being spared for capitulating."

You can find this on p. 131 of Al-Qadial-Quda'i A Treasury of Virtues

There is a concept called Taqiya in Islam in which a believer can dissimulate his religion to save life. The definition given in Wikipedia is: is a form of Islamic dissimulation or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are in fear or at risk of significant persecution.[2]

For Baha'is this concept is not an option.

 

[JoStories]

How?

By simply believing in God and I use the word God simply to convey the concept. I believe God is the ultimate goal of our enlightenment. We strive to be a part of the energy that is the goal. But I can believe in this with no need for any action whatsoever. I can believe in the easter bunny just as easily and it, too, would require no action on my part. I don't know how to make this clearer.

 

[JoStories]

As you are well know "my" doesn't always denote possession. My God is the one I believe in. He is obviously quite a different character from the God you believe in. In the end he is either more like my perception, your perception or neither.

My belief is that we can never attain a pure heart and mind without God's assistance, no matter how long we are given. And further I believe that with God's help it doesn't even require a lifetime to achieve it.

I don't know that God is really all that different for the two of us, unless you really do see God as that White man in the sky with a long flowing beard. Or as a he for that matter. That is all conjecture on your part, non? I disagree with your last remarks but hey, that is not a bad thing really. It just is two views on one topic that cannot be proven either way.

 

[JoStories]

True. It sounds like a huge confliction between our two beliefs. And what makes it more a conflict is we are both saying we follow the Buddha's teachings but for some reason, when you add god to it, in my point of view belittles what the Buddha's teachings are for. It's like using a car as a skateboard to go to the store. I mean, the both have wheels. They both have ways to gain momentum to get from one place to another. However, because of the nature of the two "mobiles", they just don't add up well.

In other words, anyone can have compassion, and all of that in which the Buddha taught without calling ourselves Buddhist. What part of the Buddha's teachings let's you say you follow the Buddha as well as God?

Mysticism or something?

Carlita, we are running in circles here. God, IMO, is not something that I see as conflicting to what the Buddha taught. God, IMO, is the ultimate goal of enlightenment and there is no conflict in following the Teachings and also believing in God. Keep in mind that I don't see God as others do. Maybe that is where you are having trouble seeing my side of this. But bottom line, we are running in circles and getting nowhere.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

By simply believing in God and I use the word God simply to convey the concept. I believe God is the ultimate goal of our enlightenment. We strive to be a part of the energy that is the goal. But I can believe in this with no need for any action whatsoever. I can believe in the easter bunny just as easily and it, too, would require no action on my part. I don't know how to make this clearer.

It is clear, and it does not make sense "to me".

That is like my believing I am Muslim now, next hour I am Hindu, and next I am an alien. For some reason, just even doing that, I have became two different religions and a species in less than five seconds.

Can I believe in something (religious belief) by just thinking about it?

That I do not understand. I know that is your belief; and, "in general", regardless who holds belief, "to me" it sounds illogical as far as religion is concerned.

This doesnt have to do with your view of god.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita, we are running in circles here. God, IMO, is not something that I see as conflicting to what the Buddha taught. God, IMO, is the ultimate goal of enlightenment and there is no conflict in following the Teachings and also believing in God. Keep in mind that I don't see God as others do. Maybe that is where you are having trouble seeing my side of this. But bottom line, we are running in circles and getting nowhere.

I mentioned in your other post this misunderstanding isnt related to your belief in god. I thought you believed in the abrahamic god. Post 241 is the besr I can explain it. I respect your belief "and" I dont understand it as a general statement.

 

[Draka]

I'm not understanding this thing about making a belief "true". You don't have to perform any action or practice to believe in something. Yes, you can just believe in something and it be considered true to you. I believe in reincarnation, I do not have to perform any actions or have any practices that express some direct belief in reincarnation in order for me to believe in it. I believe in the Divine (god, deity, source, however you want to name it) and I do not have to do one thing to establish that belief. To make it "real". It is already real to me. I know it. I feel it. I don't have to charade it. I don't rely upon practices, actions, rituals to keep my beliefs in something. My beliefs are strong enough without having to reinforce them through ritual. Rituals and practices are nice, don't get me wrong, but they are done because the heart moves one to do so, not because they are needed in order to maintain or validate a belief. The belief, if strong enough, if sure about it enough, will remain whether practices and rituals are done or not.

 

[JoStories]

I mentioned in your other post this misunderstanding isnt related to your belief in god. I thought you believed in the abrahamic god. Post 241 is the besr I can explain it. I respect your belief "and" I dont understand it as a general statement.

No, I don;t believe in the Abrahamic version of God. God is not some guy on a cloud. God is energy, IMO. And has little to do with religions at all. I do think religions need to put a 'face' to God for comfort. I don't need that. Maybe that is why you are not getting my view.

 

[JoStories]

It is clear, and it does not make sense "to me".

That is like my believing I am Muslim now, next hour I am Hindu, and next I am an alien. For some reason, just even doing that, I have became two different religions and a species in less than five seconds.

Can I believe in something (religious belief) by just thinking about it?

That I do not understand. I know that is your belief; and, "in general", regardless who holds belief, "to me" it sounds illogical as far as religion is concerned.

This doesnt have to do with your view of god.

I think you are fixated on the trappings of religion. Religion, for me, is not necessary for belief in God. Therefore being Muslim one minute holds no meaning. That is the trappings again. Religion is how some find comfort and ways to address how they conceive of God to approach that concept. I don't need that. I follow the Buddhist path because it most closely fits my life. It has nothing to do with my belief in God other than that when I finally achieve enlightenment, I will be a part of the energy that is God. That's all Carlita.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@JoStories

No one else seems to have the same view as you that can explain this to me.

We define religion differently. They are not trappings and dogma. Please read this in that context.

Our beliefs change over time. What I believed twenty years ago is not what I believe today. I live with people 80 years old and up. What they believed at my age is not what they believe today. As such we gradually give up our old beliefs and adopt new ones.

Many people have turned away from their faith (not how you define religion) and became atheist. If beliefs can't be changed or droped, how can they do this?

As a general statement. People can give up their beliefs. Just we always think "I'm not going to change. I'll believe this for the rest of my life." not realizing that The Buddha taught things are always changing.

Taking out how you define religion, The Buddha's teachings are not beliefs, they are practices. They are things you do in order to be free of suffering. One can't be free of suffering by believing it. It's an action.

In Christianity, many denominations are based on "you can belief something to be true and you don't have to lift a finger". I find that odd.

There is no christian who can explain this to me as of yet. It's interesting, nonetheless.

 

[JoStories]

@JoStories

No one else seems to have the same view as you that can explain this to me.

We define religion differently. They are not trappings and dogma. Please read this in that context.

Our beliefs change over time. What I believed twenty years ago is not what I believe today. I live with people 80 years old and up. What they believed at my age is not what they believe today. As such we gradually give up our old beliefs and adopt new ones.

Many people have turned away from their faith (not how you define religion) and became atheist. If beliefs can't be changed or droped, how can they do this?

As a general statement. People can give up their beliefs. Just we always think "I'm not going to change. I'll believe this for the rest of my life." not realizing that The Buddha taught things are always changing.

Taking out how you define religion, The Buddha's teachings are not beliefs, they are practices. They are things you do in order to be free of suffering. One can't be free of suffering by believing it. It's an action.

In Christianity, many denominations are based on "you can belief something to be true and you don't have to lift a finger". I find that odd.

There is no christian who can explain this to me as of yet. It's interesting, nonetheless.

Carlita, nowhere did I say that beliefs cannot be changed. But belief does not necessarily, at least for me, mean actions. I believed in God, in various guises, for most of my life. That belief has not changed. What has changed is how I view that concept and how I relate to it. My belief is God has nothing to do with religion or any practice. It just is. I believe God exists. There is no further statement or need for action here. Why do you think there must be? If I wish to worship said God, that is an entirely different thing. I don't so for me, the idea is moot. I cannot give up my belief in God simply because you say so. Nor would my belief in God have anything to do with an action I might need to undertake. For example, you asked if I would give up my belief in God to save a life. I ask...why do I need to? What about saving that person's life requires me to give up anything? You cannot stop my belief simply because you think it can be stopped. I am not defining Buddhism nor does Buddhism have ANYTHING to do with my belief in God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You're taking this too personal. In my other posts and to others, I hear what some of you (the four votes) are saying that you can't drop your beliefs to save another. The 10 votes say they can. So, from a very gross assumption, we are basing what we are saying on opinions. Whether it is a fact or not we can drop our beliefs, I honestly don't know; there isn't a criteria to judge it false or not.

Carlita, nowhere did I say that beliefs cannot be changed. But belief does not necessarily, at least for me, mean actions. I believed in God, in various guises, for most of my life. That belief has not changed. What has changed is how I view that concept and how I relate to it. My belief is God has nothing to do with religion or any practice.

I never said that you said our beliefs don't change. You are taking my generalized statements personally. I am not hiding anything by making indirect statements. When I say "many people" that is what I mean. Not targeting you.

As a general question, do you believe that any person's beliefs can change?

If so, they can be given up. If not, they can't. People (in general) leave their beliefs all the time. Others beliefs (not saying you dont know this) change over time. That does not mean you fall into this category. I'm just making a statement.

Take religion and practice out of your mind, for a minute. What do you do (you can give me fake examples) that let's you know not just others that you not only believe in your faith but you follow it as well?

How do you follow your religion? (You can make something up. As long as you get my point)

I'm not trying to change your point of view. I just dont think you understand what I mean by practice and religion. In my opinion, that's clouding your understanding of the purpose of the OP question.

There is no further statement or need for action here. Why do you think there must be? If I wish to worship said God, that is an entirely different thing. I don't so for me, the idea is moot. I cannot give up my belief in God simply because you say so.

You are taking this personally. People (and I mean people not you) give up their beliefs all the time. Many people's beliefs change as they grow older and thus, it is given up gradually.

It is possible.. I am not saying you can do so. I'm saying in general it is not impossible.

Do you feel it's posisble to give up one's belief (not yours but in general)?

If not, how do you explain other people who give up their belief for another or drop it completely? And those whose believes are given up gradually as they grow older?

What about saving that person's life requires me to give up anything? You cannot stop my belief simply because you think it can be stopped. I am not defining Buddhism nor does Buddhism have ANYTHING to do with my belief in God.

You are taking this personally. That last part in one of your posts you said that god is kinda like another word for enlightenment or something similar. (post 245) How you see god is different than abrahamic. You did combine the two. However, we are not talking about what you personally believe. I know that's personal and comments about it you take personal. So, I'll keep it to general statements since I dont feel you are the only one who shares your belief. Many people believe in god and follow Buddhist teachings. That's why it's so interesting to learn more about this given I don't see how they can be combined.

However, we aren't talking about your beliefs since I notice, in my opinion, that you are taking this a bit personal.

Let's make this a general statement: "What about a person's life makes any person has to give up anything?"

No one has to give up anything to save another person if they don't want to. Especially, if that person (not talking about you) does not feel his or her beliefs can change/be given up. Not everyone shares that point of view. I certiantly don't. (Remember, talking about people in general). I just find it odd.

When I refer to the word religion, I am refering to practices and beliefs that a person follows in their faith. Religion does not need to be dogmatic. It doesn't need to be rituals. It could be just siting on your (in general) couch and fliping the t.v. station praying to god.

Practice just means what do you do to follow your (people in general) faith. I believe in the Buddha's teachings. How? Because I practice it.

I know you do not see it this way. Now that I know that, I just don't understand how that makes sense.

Understand?