Poll: Give up your religion to save a stranger

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is something I found in a book I bought, "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" by Richard Carlson



Remember that You Become What you Practice Most

Repeated practice is one of the most basic principles of most spiritual and meditative paths. In other words, whatever you practice most is what you will become. If you are in the habit of being uptight whenever life isn't quite right, repeatedly reacting to criticism by defending yourself, insisting on being right, allowing your thinking to snowball in response to adversity, or acting like life is an emergency, then, unfortunately, your life will be a reflection of this type of practice. You will be fustrated becuase, in a sense, you have practiced being fustrated.

Likewise, however, you can choose to bring forth in yourself qualities of compassion, patience, kindness, humility, and peace--again, through what you practice. I guess it's safe to say that practice makes perfect. It make ssens,e then, to be careful what you practice.

This isn't to suggest htat you make your entire life into one great big project wher ehte goal is to be constantly improving yourself. Only that it's immensely helpful to become conscious of your own habits, both intenral and extenral. Where is your attention? How do you spend your time? Are you cultivating habits that are helpful to your stated goals? Is what you say you want your life to stand for consistant with what your life really stands for?

Simply asking yourself these and other important questions, and answering them honestly, helps to determine which strategies will be most useful to you. Have you always said to yourself, "I'd like to spend more time by myself" or "I've always wanted to learnto meditate,' yet somehow you've never found the time? Sadly, many people spend far more time washing their car or watching reruns of television shows they don't even enjoy than they do making time for aspects of life that nurture their hearts.

If you remember that what you practice you will become, you may begin choosing different types of practices.



That's why it is very important to understand practices are interconnected (and to me are) beliefs. Compassion, patience, god, love, etc are action words. Without acting in these "beliefs" they literally do not exist.

They exist because of how you show it in your actions not how you think it in your head.

This is not to anyone in particular. I was thinking of doing a separate thread on it; but, when I was praying, I found it appropriate to post it here. I know I'm not the only one who thinks these things. We just need to respect that we have different ways of expressing ourselves to others.

 

[JoStories]

I would think saving the life of someone spraying bullets into a crowd is evil. It's about the only scenario I can come up with, though. I'm more of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" thing, myself.

...

Actually, I just thought of an example of sacrificing your religion to save a life. Let's say you had a "cigarette religion". I have asthma and just being within 10 feet of you might kill me. In order to save me, would you give up smoking?



Or, let's say that you feel everything can be saved by giving out bibles. You are a missionary and go to a village in the middle of nowhere and they are all starving to death. You hand out free bibles because you think that's what Jesus would want you to do to get to Heaven. Meanwhile, everyone dies because bibles are inedible. All you had to do is actually feed people food, and leave the bibles for later. However, that would be giving up your religion (assuming your religion loves cherry picking to find the most shallow expressions of religiousity), so you failed to do the right thing.

I'm sorry but your examples make no sense. First of all, if you have asthma, I would not smoke around you. But I would continue to smoke in your absence. And the second example actually really did happen, in a manner of speaking. A friend of mine; Skinny Jesus who is a minister, went to Haiti after the earthquake to help out. This man actually came upon a group of missionaries who were refusing to give out water until the local peoples 'accepted Christ'. He was so disgusted by this, he complained to the Methodist commission in this country and when they backed the missionaries, he emigrated out of the US to another country and resigned his place in that denomination. For me, I would never give up my faith in God because it is an integral part of me. No example you come up with could change that.

 

[JoStories]

"One cannot be totally good, IMO". Well I think this statement sums up why our perspectives are different. The belief we cannot be perfect does necessitate a belief that it is okay to not be perfect. It necessitates the belief that evil must have some good purpose within us and that is why it does not leave.

Whereas the belief that we are supposed to be perfect ("Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect") necessitates the belief that evil has no good purpose in our lives. In one of our scriptures it is written "Wickedness never was happiness".

But perfection is not within man's power to do alone. It comes as a gift of God to those who diligently seek it. In another scripture in the church it is written:

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.​

​

You misunderstand. No where did I say it was okay to be bad. We strive to be good and not have to deal with the bad but the bottom line is that that bad will at some point surface its ugly head in our lives. No one can be perfect and therein lies the problem. You point to the perfection of Christ but IMO, that is merely allegorical and analogy to boot. It is a symbol of what a person should be. It is not attainable. Are you actually trying to say that you can be perfect? I don't believe that. The purpose of 'evil' is to make sure we know what good is in the first place. How would you know what is allegedly evil if you did not know what is good?? We must have a balance to understand the two concepts. The problem with your faith, in my view, is that you place too much emphasis on good, while trying with every breath to avoid the bad. This does not mean one tries to be bad. It just means that I accept that bad is. I understand it is there and try to avoid it knowing that at times, bad will surface. For example, yesterday, I got mad at my aunt for a bit. I was angry. I recognize that, and in fact, my best friend and I talked about it and my reasons for being angry. It was a lesson, you see. Without that lesson, I would not have seen the flaw within myself for the need to be angry. I learned, IOW, from that and have grown from it.

 

[JoStories]

@Draka and @JoStories

Post #161 explains my question. The one about the cigarretes and bible.

These, as I said, are not good examples and I explained that in my post to Kelly. I would continue to smoke, just not around her. At my core, I would continue to believe in God (cigarettes or Bibles, whatever you wish to use as an example) but do so outside the purview of the person who has problems with cigarettes, etc. One cannot simply stop believing in God on a whim. Either you do believe completely and fully or you don't. Its that simple.

 

[JoStories]

It is anology saying who you are was once a smoker and now you have changed by giving up the cigarrettes for good health.

I was once a Catholic, that was who I was. Now I am a Buddbist, that is who I am.

Who I was (a smoker) Catholic was something, as you say, changed gradually. Eventually,n.nwho I was changes for what I know now helps me more and is more healthy for my soul. I tossed the ciggarretes (left christianity) and follownthe Buddha.

I am a Buddha. I dont believe in him.

We-who we are-changes on a constant basis. Who we are changes as we age. The older I get, the more I realize this is true. It takes a lifetime to really mature in one's religion because as we grow older learn new things that may conflict with our faith. Its not easy.

People change their lives (have a motivation to quite smoking) all the time.

Nothing in life is static.

Why do you think it is?

Religion IS an action. That is why we dont understand each other.

No, religious practice is an action. Belief is NOT an action. It is simply that, belief. My belief in God would not change, nor has it since I was much younger. How I believed and how that belief manifested in my life has changed but NOT my belief in God. That has never changed. You speak of being a Catholic and then something else. That is merely how you approached your belief in God, not the belief itself. If you stop believing in God, that is a totally different thing, IMO.

 

[JoStories]

Im asking if people can give up their practices in order to save someone else.

I can give up my practice because my practice ane belief go together. Many theist have practices. So, I am asking, for example, can a Catholic turn from her practice/religion to save another.

This has nothing to do with how you personally see belief. My question was not based on belief as how theist see it but belief as in practice.

If you thought it that way, I am sorry.

I think the differences here are that for you, belief is practice. I strongly disagree with you. My belief in God has absolutely nothing to do with my practice of my spirituality. Let me ask you something...don't you think that your question here is not in tune with the second noble truth? You are expecting other people to be able to understand and conform to your understanding of this concept, which is breaking the Second Noble Truth. Buddhism is about a middle path, knowing that no one can be all good or all bad but striving for the moral life which follows the 5 Precepts and following the 8-Fold Path, which also has to do with the 4 Truths. Asking someone to abandon their beliefs is clearly NOT something The Buddha would have done.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

These, as I said, are not good examples and I explained that in my post to Kelly. I would continue to smoke, just not around her. At my core, I would continue to believe in God (cigarettes or Bibles, whatever you wish to use as an example) but do so outside the purview of the person who has problems with cigarettes, etc. One cannot simply stop believing in God on a whim. Either you do believe completely and fully or you don't. Its that simple.

Again, both of you (@Draka), I am not asking you to give up your belief. In belief based religions, it is impossible to do. In practiced religions, one can.

In the cigarrete example, giving up cigarretes for a belief-based religion is giving up going to church, prayer, etc. For a practice-based religion, it is completely giving up one's belief which IS one's practice.

There are different answers to this. If you are not willing to give up your belief/Practice for another human being (don't go to church, pray, smoke a cigarrete) then where does your charity for others drop to think of yourself instead?

My other posts explains it. I will find them.

You're not getting it. Draka and JoStoeis, I am not asking you give up your belief--what is inside you. I am asking you can you give up your practice--that what's inside you prompts you to do.

In my religion belief IS a practice. We can give it up.

Also, the Buddha's faith IS to give up his life for another. Buddhism is a practice-based faith not a belief-based.

Why is this hard for belief-based believers to understand?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, religious practice is an action. Belief is NOT an action. It is simply that, belief. My belief in God would not change, nor has it since I was much younger. How I believed and how that belief manifested in my life has changed but NOT my belief in God. That has never changed. You speak of being a Catholic and then something else. That is merely how you approached your belief in God, not the belief itself. If you stop believing in God, that is a totally different thing, IMO.

I went over this with Draka. In MY faith belief is an action. The Buddha did not just sit on his toes and say "I am enlightened". The sutras don't say you are enlightened because you stand still. It says you are enlightened when you follow the teachings which ARE beliefs; they actions.

In Christianity (excluding Catholicism), it is a belief-based faith. One can be saved before one does the action of being saved. One can follow Christ in love without displaying that love for that to be true. It is focused on intent rather than action.

Catholicim is focused on action. The Catholic is not saved by thinking he is, like many protestants. He is saved by actually participating in the sacraments: baptized, confession, communion, etc. These are actions that ARE his beliefs-his faith-his religion. You cannot separate the two.

Paganism is likewise. In some pagan faiths, partitioners do not say they believe, they say they act. Their belief is not just siting on one's toes. They do ritual, they interact, they give offerings, etc. Their religiou beliefs are actions they give to their god/s or nature or whom/whatever.

There are two links I gave Draka if you want to fish through the posts.

In my religious faith, belief is an action. I do not believe the Budha's teachings until I do it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No, religious practice is an action. Belief is NOT an action. It is simply that, belief. My belief in God would not change, nor has it since I was much younger. How I believed and how that belief manifested in my life has changed but NOT my belief in God. That has never changed. You speak of being a Catholic and then something else. That is merely how you approached your belief in God, not the belief itself. If you stop believing in God, that is a totally different thing, IMO.

Also, that's another point. In belief-based religions, I can change my religion (not approach it differently) on the sport.

One hour I can be Catholic. The next Buddhist. The Next Hindu. The next Muslim.

As long as I mentally make that confirmation to believe in God, Budha, Vishnu, or Allah, all of the sudden I am a Christian, Buddhist, Vishnu, Hindu, or Muslim.

Since that that point in hour, say I'm a Muslims, it is a belief and it is a part of me, of course I cannot give it up according to you guys. However, people give up their faith many many times. I personally do not say they never had it in the first place.

They are maturing. If you get stuck with "this is me; I will not change" that is defeating the point of the Buddha's teachings. Nothing is permenent. If you don't understand how your beliefs, worldview, practices change daily, that is completely going against what the Buddha taught.

Maybe you and Draka cant drop your faith like so many people do. That doesn't mean o thers cannot. Instead of arguing it with me, look at it from outside your personal perspective. If others can do it, why can't you.

 

[JoStories]

Again, both of you (@Draka), I am not asking you to give up your belief. In belief based religions, it is impossible to do. In practiced religions, one can.

In the cigarrete example, giving up cigarretes for a belief-based religion is giving up going to church, prayer, etc. For a practice-based religion, it is completely giving up one's belief which IS one's practice.

There are different answers to this. If you are not willing to give up your belief/Practice for another human being (don't go to church, pray, smoke a cigarrete) then where does your charity for others drop to think of yourself instead?

My other posts explains it. I will find them.

You're not getting it. Draka and JoStoeis, I am not asking you give up your belief--what is inside you. I am asking you can you give up your practice--that what's inside you prompts you to do.

In my religion belief IS a practice. We can give it up.

Also, the Buddha's faith IS to give up his life for another. Buddhism is a practice-based faith not a belief-based.

Why is this hard for belief-based believers to understand?

IMO, Buddhism is both a belief based and a practice based faith. I can pray without having to ever give that up based on your question and yes, I get it. But in my view, practices that are a part of one's faith are entrappings. Do they really encompass the gist of one's faith? Does one's faith in God hinge on your going to church? If so, IMO, it is not much of a faith. God doesn't live there after all an if your faith is based on being a part of a community, which is lovely, don't get me wrong, but if you faith in God is only manifested by these practices, it is a surface belief only. What you are asking is would someone stop the practices of one's faith to save another and of course, the answer is yes. But the practices of one's faith are not the faith itself. If it is, it is not much of a faith to begin with.

 

[JoStories]

Also, that's another point. In belief-based religions, I can change my religion (not approach it differently) on the sport.

One hour I can be Catholic. The next Buddhist. The Next Hindu. The next Muslim.

As long as I mentally make that confirmation to believe in God, Budha, Vishnu, or Allah, all of the sudden I am a Christian, Buddhist, Vishnu, Hindu, or Muslim.

Since that that point in hour, say I'm a Muslims, it is a belief and it is a part of me, of course I cannot give it up according to you guys. However, people give up their faith many many times. I personally do not say they never had it in the first place.

They are maturing. If you get stuck with "this is me; I will not change" that is defeating the point of the Buddha's teachings. Nothing is permenent. If you don't understand how your beliefs, worldview, practices change daily, that is completely going against what the Buddha taught.

Maybe you and Draka cant drop your faith like so many people do. That doesn't mean o thers cannot. Instead of arguing it with me, look at it from outside your personal perspective. If others can do it, why can't you.

Belief in the particular name of a God does not make one a Muslim, or Hindu, etc. God has many names and all of the ones you mention are names that are equated with God. Changing the name does not, IMO, change one's type of faith. This is mostly why I consider myself more spiritual than any particular faith based religion. On the surface, most of my belief is mirrored most aptly in Buddhism but that does not mean that I don't find wisdom in the Bible, The Talmud, The Qu'ran, etc. IMO, too many are too focused on the name of one's faith. Why does that matter really? Does calling yourself Christian make one better than someone else? If it does, that IMO, is the ego talking and has nothing at all to do with God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think the differences here are that for you, belief is practice. I strongly disagree with you. My belief in God has absolutely nothing to do with my practice of my spirituality. Let me ask you something...don't you think that your question here is not in tune with the second noble truth? You are expecting other people to be able to understand and conform to your understanding of this concept, which is breaking the Second Noble Truth. Buddhism is about a middle path, knowing that no one can be all good or all bad but striving for the moral life which follows the 5 Precepts and following the 8-Fold Path, which also has to do with the 4 Truths. Asking someone to abandon their beliefs is clearly NOT something The Buddha would have done.

THe Buddha's faith IS to give up his life for someone else.

I strongly disagree with you. My belief in God has absolutely nothing to do with my practice of my spirituality.

I don't understand that. Catholicism and Buddhism focus on practice. I can give scripture and sutra quotes that share this. I don't understand how you can believe something without actually acting.

Post 201 explains practice as who we are. That is my belief: practice. They are not separate.

We are what we practice. What we practice is our beliefs.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Belief in the particular name of a God does not make one a Muslim, or Hindu, etc. God has many names and all of the ones you mention are names that are equated with God. Changing the name does not, IMO, change one's type of faith. This is mostly why I consider myself more spiritual than any particular faith based religion. On the surface, most of my belief is mirrored most aptly in Buddhism but that does not mean that I don't find wisdom in the Bible, The Talmud, The Qu'ran, etc. IMO, too many are too focused on the name of one's faith. Why does that matter really? Does calling yourself Christian make one better than someone else? If it does, that IMO, is the ego talking and has nothing at all to do with God.

Do you get my point?

How do you believe in God and the Buddha's teachings if your actions aren't what you truely believe in the two?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

IMO, Buddhism is both a belief based and a practice based faith. I can pray without having to ever give that up based on your question and yes, I get it. But in my view, practices that are a part of one's faith are entrappings. Do they really encompass the gist of one's faith? Does one's faith in God hinge on your going to church? If so, IMO, it is not much of a faith. God doesn't live there after all an if your faith is based on being a part of a community, which is lovely, don't get me wrong, but if you faith in God is only manifested by these practices, it is a surface belief only. What you are asking is would someone stop the practices of one's faith to save another and of course, the answer is yes. But the practices of one's faith are not the faith itself. If it is, it is not much of a faith to begin with.

I hear what you're saying; and, I don't understand it to really disagree.

Meditation, showing compassion, practicing mindfulness, right view, right action, etc are all verbs. These are things the Buddha taught. These are beliefs. How can we have right meditation as a belief if we don't meditate? What does that really mean to you if you just see it in mid-air as a belief?

Likewise with Church. Going to Church get's such a bad reputation. I never had that experience of my belief being separate from the Church. My belief WAS going to Church/Mass. It was the action of prayer. My belief was the participation in communion. And so on and so forth

I cannot separate action from religious belief. The Buddha did not sit in his home and believed that suffering should end without actually teaching/verb what suffering is. He actually did something. That action was his faith. His belief. Who he was. He he is.

To see religious belief as just thoughts in the mind about, say god, disturbs me. I can't believe in something I dont relate to practice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@JoStories

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/poll-give-up-your-religion-to-save-a-stranger.183728/page-10

Here is another point #195 " Without practice, the Dharma is not the Dharma anymore."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@JoStories and @Draka

I'm trying to simplify it. If you disagree, please say so. It doesn't mean I am wrong.

Religious beliefs for me are practices.

Thinking about ending suffering does not become a belief to me until I practice it. That thought, opinion, pondering is useless without practice.

People leave (not change approach) their beliefs all the time. For me, it is impossible to separate myself from the Dharma because it is not a belief that can change when I grow older, it is a practice that I embedded in my lifestyle.

If your "belief" is not your practice and not embedded in your life, how is it a belief to begin with?

What makes your belief a belief without it being a part of what you do?



JoStories, you say you believe in god. That's a nice statement, but how do I know this is actually your belief? How do I know that god is your life? How do I know that god is part of your lifestyle?

It is your practice.

You say you follow Buddhist teachings. You believe in the four noble truths and eight-fold path. These are not isolated teachings. These are practices.

There is suffering (yes, how do I know because I actually went out into the world and interacted with people who suffered).

There is an origin of suffering (how do I know because whatever we do that makes us suffer has a cause. The Buddha says its in the mind) Even doctor's know there is an origin of suffering. They plug me up to an EEG, test me, did the actions of figuring out what is the cause, found it to releave me from it. They didn't just believe me cured. They acted.

There is a way from suffering (How do I know, because I actually started finding ways, methods, actions to get myself from suffering and it worked).

The eight-fold path is the way out of suffering (how do I know? because I practice right view, right understanding, right speech, etc.)

These are my beliefs. What I do.

Because my beliefs are what I do, I can drop them in a heart beat to save another human being. When I phrase the question, I phrased it from how I see reality. If people don't see belief as practices, just say so. You don't have to debate it to say what you believe is different than from what I do.

You and Draka (which is hard to figure what you believe unless you say something) may feel differently. That does not mean I am wrong.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@JoStories #216 is my overall point. You dont have to flip through the other posts if you dont want to. I just want you to understand what I am saying. Disagreeing with me doesn't make me wrong.

 

[Thanda]

You misunderstand. No where did I say it was okay to be bad. We strive to be good and not have to deal with the bad but the bottom line is that that bad will at some point surface its ugly head in our lives. No one can be perfect and therein lies the problem. You point to the perfection of Christ but IMO, that is merely allegorical and analogy to boot. It is a symbol of what a person should be. It is not attainable. Are you actually trying to say that you can be perfect? I don't believe that. The purpose of 'evil' is to make sure we know what good is in the first place. How would you know what is allegedly evil if you did not know what is good?? We must have a balance to understand the two concepts. The problem with your faith, in my view, is that you place too much emphasis on good, while trying with every breath to avoid the bad. This does not mean one tries to be bad. It just means that I accept that bad is. I understand it is there and try to avoid it knowing that at times, bad will surface. For example, yesterday, I got mad at my aunt for a bit. I was angry. I recognize that, and in fact, my best friend and I talked about it and my reasons for being angry. It was a lesson, you see. Without that lesson, I would not have seen the flaw within myself for the need to be angry. I learned, IOW, from that and have grown from it.

I suppose we are all free to strive for whatever level of righteousness we are willing to achieve. I too believe I can learn from my mistakes God says:

And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. - Ether 12:27​

God knows we have weaknesses and it is for our own good that these weaknesses are there. But note again how the end goal is to overcome them. That is my goal, to overcome all my weaknesses and to set aside all my sins. My goal is to have a pure heart and mind. Through the Lord Jesus Christ I know I will achieve it. If my God has the power to create this whole universe and order it, I believe it is a small thing for him to help me reach perfection. The only thing that stands between me and my perfection is me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Quintessence

Can I ask you something real quick? Does this statement make sense?

Seems like I'm talking in circles.

"We are what we practice. What we practice is our beliefs."

 

[Thanda]

@JoStories and @Draka

I'm trying to simplify it. If you disagree, please say so. It doesn't mean I am wrong.

Religious beliefs for me are practices.

Thinking about ending suffering does not become a belief to me until I practice it. That thought, opinion, pondering is useless without practice.

People leave (not change approach) their beliefs all the time. For me, it is impossible to separate myself from the Dharma because it is not a belief that can change when I grow older, it is a practice that I embedded in my lifestyle.

If your "belief" is not your practice and not embedded in your life, how is it a belief to begin with?

What makes your belief a belief without it being a part of what you do?



JoStories, you say you believe in god. That's a nice statement, but how do I know this is actually your belief? How do I know that god is your life? How do I know that god is part of your lifestyle?

It is your practice.

You say you follow Buddhist teachings. You believe in the four noble truths and eight-fold path. These are not isolated teachings. These are practices.

There is suffering (yes, how do I know because I actually went out into the world and interacted with people who suffered).

There is an origin of suffering (how do I know because whatever we do that makes us suffer has a cause. The Buddha says its in the mind) Even doctor's know there is an origin of suffering. They plug me up to an EEG, test me, did the actions of figuring out what is the cause, found it to releave me from it. They didn't just believe me cured. They acted.

There is a way from suffering (How do I know, because I actually started finding ways, methods, actions to get myself from suffering and it worked).

The eight-fold path is the way out of suffering (how do I know? because I practice right view, right understanding, right speech, etc.)

These are my beliefs. What I do.

Because my beliefs are what I do, I can drop them in a heart beat to save another human being. When I phrase the question, I phrased it from how I see reality. If people don't see belief as practices, just say so. You don't have to debate it to say what you believe is different than from what I do.

You and Draka (which is hard to figure what you believe unless you say something) may feel differently. That does not mean I am wrong.

I agree with you that honestly held beliefs lead to actions.

But I again state that personally I would not lay down my beliefs to save a human life. The reasons for this are as follows:

1. In most cases one can save someone's life without denying their religion. In fact in many religions doing so is an act of love.
2. I believe God is an active being that is watching over us. Therefore I believe I should rather trust in God to sort something out than trusting my own judgment.
3. I believe in a choice between two actions, the better action is the one that brings about the most good or the least evil over the longest time.
4. Save someone's physical life (who will die again anyway) is less important than saving my spiritual life (which is eternal).
5. I must also consider that by giving up my religious beliefs and saving that one life, I might well go on to destroy many other lives (perhaps abusing, raping and murdering many others).

All in all I think the benefits of saving one person's life do not justify the consequences of giving up my religious beliefs.