Poll: Should homosexuals be chaste?

[Skywalker]

There isn't in any formal way.

All of those word usages are colloquial, usually by the groups themselves. Note: I am not homosexual(i am in fact pansexual!) but i do know some history of the terms. Firstly, as you probably know, "gay" used to mean "happy, cheery" etc. Around the 60's homosexual males chose to use the term to describe themselves; Likely to reclaim it after it was being used as pejorative. The word "queer" arose with similar connotations: It was originally used as an insult. The community later chose to reclaim the term and defuse its original intention.

The word "lesbian" used to mean "things from Lesbos," especially wine, until the early 19th century. After that point its meaning shifted to "mentally ill woman with non-traditional gender role," likely influenced by Sappho's writings, though at that time it had nothing to do with sexuality, just gender roles. The use by female homosexuals is relatively recent, like "gay." The difference is that it still doesn't universally mean "female homosexual" to everyone, and there is some resistance to the word. To some people, that i personally know, it still means "woman with non-traditional gender role" and some of the self-described lesbians are actually bisexual.

TLDR: They were words used by other people, then later reclaimed and subverted. But the fact is:

In formal language, the ONLY word used to describe a homosexual in terms of sexual orientation is "homosexual." Everything else is colloquial. I know you'll be shocked to hear this: Women and men have through-out history been treated differently. Therefore different terms. Equality is a relatively recent concept.

/E: As far as the poll goes, i believe neither in chastity, or marriage, so i'm going to asnwer "no."

When people say its wrong because God created men and women, does that mean its unchaste or simply unnatural? Maybe living together before marriage is wrong not because of boundaries but because of an order to things. People dont refer to someone being gay as living together before marriage, but similar to a heterosexual couple, they arent husband and wife.

 

[Darkstorn]

When people say its wrong because God created men and women, does that mean its unchaste or simply unnatural?

When people say it's wrong, they usually don't know what they're talking about. And i don't think they can truly differentiate between right and wrong.

Maybe living together before marriage is wrong not because of boundaries but because of an order to things. People dont refer to someone being gay as living together before marriage, but similar to a heterosexual couple, they arent husband and wife.

Like i said, i don't believe in marriage so i can't agree. I also think people who think there's an "order to things" used that same excuse to treat women differently...

 

[Skywalker]

There isn't in any formal way.

All of those word usages are colloquial, usually by the groups themselves. Note: I am not homosexual(i am in fact pansexual!) but i do know some history of the terms. Firstly, as you probably know, "gay" used to mean "happy, cheery" etc. Around the 60's homosexual males chose to use the term to describe themselves; Likely to reclaim it after it was being used as pejorative. The word "queer" arose with similar connotations: It was originally used as an insult. The community later chose to reclaim the term and defuse its original intention.

The word "lesbian" used to mean "things from Lesbos," especially wine, until the early 19th century. After that point its meaning shifted to "mentally ill woman with non-traditional gender role," likely influenced by Sappho's writings, though at that time it had nothing to do with sexuality, just gender roles. The use by female homosexuals is relatively recent, like "gay." The difference is that it still doesn't universally mean "female homosexual" to everyone, and there is some resistance to the word. To some people, that i personally know, it still means "woman with non-traditional gender role" and some of the self-described lesbians are actually bisexual.

TLDR: They were words used by other people, then later reclaimed and subverted. But the fact is:

In formal language, the ONLY word used to describe a homosexual in terms of sexual orientation is "homosexual." Everything else is colloquial. I know you'll be shocked to hear this: Women and men have through-out history been treated differently. Therefore different terms. Equality is a relatively recent concept.

/E: As far as the poll goes, i believe neither in chastity, or marriage, so i'm going to asnwer "no."

do you think the same applies to terms like bisexual or gay?

Women call each other girlfriends when men dont call each other boyfriends. Its more common to hear that women became gay because of bad experiences than it is with men.

 

[Darkstorn]

do you think the same applies to terms like bisexual or gay?

Bisexual is a formal term to describe a person who doesn't have a preference between females or males. Some pansexuals use it to describe themselves, but i don't think it's accurate when there's already a term: Pansexual.

Like i said, "gay" is colloquial.

Women call each other girlfriends when men dont call each other boyfriends. Its more common to hear that women became gay because of bad experiences than it is with men.

I think you're portraying negative stereotypes here. Maybe you should go out in the world and ask people things instead of making your own assumptions?

 

[Skywalker]

Bisexual is a formal term to describe a person who doesn't have a preference between females or males. Some pansexuals use it to describe themselves, but i don't think it's accurate when there's already a term: Pansexual.

Like i said, "gay" is colloquial.



I think you're portraying negative stereotypes here. Maybe you should go out in the world and ask people things instead of making your own assumptions?

Gay can also mean non traditional gender roles. Are bisexual and pansexual used in that way?

I wasnt trying to present a stereotype I was discussing why I thought that being gay was less genetic in females. I apologize if you interperted it that way. I was talking about generally speaking, not in all situations.

 

[Darkstorn]

Gay can also mean non traditional gender roles.

I don't think so. At least not universally. It's a very recent term.

I wasnt trying to present a stereotype I was discussing why I thought that being gay was less genetic in females. I apologize if you interperted it that way. I was talking about generally speaking, not in all situations.

Less genetic? You're definitely wrong there. It's no more or less genetic than male homosexuality.

 

[Skywalker]

I don't think so. At least not universally. It's a very recent term.



Less genetic? You're definitely wrong there. It's no more or less genetic than male homosexuality.

Why wasn't sapphist used as colloquially? I think its a coincidence that the term lesbian comes from the island of Lesbos, because sapphist is also a Greek term and its not used as often.

 

[Darkstorn]

Why wasn't sapphist used as colloquially? I think its a coincidence that the term lesbian comes from the island of Lesbos, because sapphist is also a Greek term and its not used as often.

I don't know.

But it's definitely not a coincidence: Sappho's writings were... Ultra-progressive even for the 19th century. Quite a feat for someone who lived in the 5th century BC. She lived on the island of Lesbos. Therefore, the word "Lesbian" was used to describe women who superficially seemed similar to the female characters in her poems. I also believe they didn't use much analysis to do this, as they completely missed the homosexuality aspect.

But she's a pioneer for the concept of independent, free woman. While women were in a HIGHER position in ancient Greece compared to middle age Europe, they were still considered second class citizens with limited rights. In some cases even less rights than a slave.

This is probably why Sappho's writings were so influential to begin with.

 

[Skywalker]

I don't know.

But it's definitely not a coincidence: Sappho's writings were... Ultra-progressive even for the 19th century. Quite a feat for someone who lived in the 5th century BC. She lived on the island of Lesbos. Therefore, the word "Lesbian" was used to describe women who superficially seemed similar to the female characters in her poems. I also believe they didn't use much analysis to do this, as they completely missed the homosexuality aspect.

But she's a pioneer for the concept of "independent, free woman." While women were in a HIGHER position in ancient Greece compared to middle age Europe, they were still considered second class citizens with limited rights. In some cases even less rights than a slave.

This is probably why Sappho's writings were so influential to begin with.

The word itself has connotations of romantic relationships or non confirming gender roles. I think the word sodomy existed before Sodom and Gommorah.

 

[Darkstorn]

The word itself has connotations of romantic relationships or non confirming gender roles.

I already told you this. It actually doesn't mean "female homosexual" to all those who self-describe as lesbian. To some it does in fact refer to non-standard gender role, rather than sexuality. And like i also said, bisexuals sometimes use the term as well. So it has a bunch of connotations, most of which are still not universal.

I think the word sodomy existed before Sodom and Gommorah.

Uh, probably not. I mean, assuming Sodom and Gomorrah are real to begin with, but if they were, they predate the word because the word itself is Latin. Which didn't exist at the time claimed.

You should probably read Wikipedia or some other source for things like this. I can't be expected to explain all word etymologies to you. English isn't even my native language.

/E: It is important to note that the word does predate the writing of the Bible at least. Possibly the writing of the Torah as well.

/E2: I caved in and went to Wikipedia after all. The word itself is from the 4th century. It's specifically Ecclesiastical Latin. The original Greek word it's based on however is ancient. No one knows how old exactly.

 

[Skywalker]

I already told you this. It actually doesn't mean "female homosexual" to all those who self-describe as lesbian. To some it does in fact refer to non-standard gender role, rather than sexuality. And like i also said, bisexuals sometimes use the term as well. So it has a bunch of connotations, most of which are still not universal.



Uh, probably not. I mean, assuming Sodom and Gomorrah are real to begin with, but if they were, they predate the word because the word itself is Latin. Which didn't exist at the time claimed.

You should probably read Wikipedia or some other source for things like this. I can't be expected to explain all word etymologies to you. English isn't even my native language.

/E: It is important to note that the word does predate the writing of the Bible at least. Possibly the writing of the Torah as well.

I think bisexual can refer to non standard gender roles to the degree of they have the gender roles of both men and women. Some bisexuals use the term for the same reason Britannica defines bisexual as a person with both homosexual and heterosexual attractions.

 

[Darkstorn]

I think bisexual can refer to non standard gender roles to the degree of they have the gender roles of both men and women. Some bisexuals use the term for the same reason Britannica defines bisexual as a person with both homosexual and heterosexual attractions.

I think you're just muddying the waters here and making it more confusing to everyone.

I can tell you right now: "Heterosexual" means a person attracted to the opposite gender, while "homosexual" refers to attraction toward the same gender. Therefore, bisexuals DO have both heterosexual and homosexual attractions. But they aren't homosexuals or heterosexuals. And "attraction" has nothing to do with gender roles either.

TLDR: Gender roles have nothing to do with heterosexuality or homosexuality. They might go hand-in-hand occasionally though.

To make this easier to you: I'm pansexual. But i don't have the gender roles of both men and women. I just have one gender role: Both my sexual gender, and my gender identity IS male.

I'm also a humanist and a believer in unconditional equality. But again, it has nothing to do with my sexual preferences or attractions.

 

[Skywalker]

I think you're just muddying the waters here and making it more confusing to everyone.

I can tell you right now: "Heterosexual" means a person attracted to the opposite gender, while "homosexual" refers to attraction toward the same gender. Therefore, bisexuals DO have both heterosexual and homosexual attractions. But they aren't homosexuals or heterosexuals. And "attraction" has nothing to do with gender roles either.

TLDR: Gender roles have nothing to do with heterosexuality or homosexuality. They might go hand-in-hand occasionally though.

I dont think homophobia is related to they believe its people taking the role of the opposite gender.

 

[Darkstorn]

I dont think homophobia is related to they believe its people taking the role of the opposite gender.

Homophobia is irrational, therefore the "reasons" can vary. Though from personal experience the most usual reason is fear.

 

[Skywalker]

I already told you this. It actually doesn't mean "female homosexual" to all those who self-describe as lesbian. To some it does in fact refer to non-standard gender role, rather than sexuality. And like i also said, bisexuals sometimes use the term as well. So it has a bunch of connotations, most of which are still not universal.



Uh, probably not. I mean, assuming Sodom and Gomorrah are real to begin with, but if they were, they predate the word because the word itself is Latin. Which didn't exist at the time claimed.

You should probably read Wikipedia or some other source for things like this. I can't be expected to explain all word etymologies to you. English isn't even my native language.

/E: It is important to note that the word does predate the writing of the Bible at least. Possibly the writing of the Torah as well.

/E2: I caved in and went to Wikipedia after all. The word itself is from the 4th century. It's specifically Ecclesiastical Latin. The original Greek word it's based on however is ancient. No one knows how old exactly.

The word comes from Latin not from Sodom and Gommorah.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

While women were in a HIGHER position in ancient Greece compared to middle age Europe

Not really. Only wealthy Greek women really could do anything and even then were still restricted. The rest were largely confined to the home and had no education. Women in the Middle Ages had more opportunities. They could become quite renown in various fields, especially religion, and the Church was paramount in those societies so that's no small thing. There were powerful Medieval queens, as well. Even lower class Medieval women had more equality with men because they had to work alongside them in the feudal system, performing much the same tasks.

As an example, there's no woman from ancient Greece that I can think of that has the stature of Joan of Arc, and she was an illiterate peasant girl. No poor ancient Greek woman was going to be rubbing shoulders with royalty and leading armies.

 

[Darkstorn]

The word comes from Latin not from Sodom and Gommorah.

Sodom and Gomorrah supposedly pre-date Latin. But doesn't matter, the word "sodomy" is actually church Latin, from the 4th century. I.E It's a 1600-year old word. The supposed events in question happened much earlier than that, supposedly.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Women being more affectionate is why their sexuality is more diverse than men, who usually are attracted to just men or women.

Their physiology is the same. Affectionate and sexual attraction (marital, platonic, etc) are all different. People's physiological "response" to people they are physically (not affectionately) sexually attracted to other people.

I'm talking about physical attraction not affection. John and Sandy both have physiological responses to other people as sexual and evolutionary human beings. That's their hardwire.

Regardless of who is more affectionate than another, they are "programed" the same: with the physiological response (erection and all that) to whom they are attracted. We're not attracted "like that" to those we are affectionate with (two girl friends, two men hug each other, say outside the States are still gay, straight, bi regardless of how much they snuggle together).

Sexuality (in regards to heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/etc) is not speaking of affection and how women are more affectionate than men. It's specifically about one's physiological sexual response to men, women, or both. It starts to be pronounced in puberty and solidified when we mature as adults. People know they are straight, gay, bisexual before they are sexually and/or affectionate with anyone.

So, heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, et cetera cannot change their born evolutionary response to the people they are attracted (not affectionate) with. Affectionate isn't sexual attraction. Platonic relationships aren't based on sexual attraction either.

The reason two women can cuddle and be affectionate with each other and still be straight is they know for themselves their inherent, physiological, and psychological attraction are geared towards men regardless what they do together.

 

[Darkstorn]

Not really. Only wealthy Greek women really could do anything and even then were still restricted. The rest were largely confined to the home and had no education. Women in the Middle Ages had more opportunities. They could become quite renown in various fields, especially religion, and the Church was paramount in those societies so that's no small thing. There were powerful Medieval queens, as well. Even lower class Medieval women had more equality with men because they had to work alongside them in the feudal system, performing much the same tasks.

Some things of note: Salic law prevents women from inheriting property or titles. This was the common law in Europe, except for England. The hundred year war was in fact caused by this. In England women were in a MUCH better position than continental Europe.

Greece was also NOT a unified polity. In Sparta women had much more rights than in Athens for example. That's why i said "sometimes."

And renown != authority.

/E: Forgot to mention but i do know of ONE instance of Salic law making an exception in the case of a woman inheriting land with no surviving male heirs.

/E2:

As an example, there's no woman from ancient Greece that I can think of that has the stature of Joan of Arc, and she was an illiterate peasant girl. No poor ancient Greek woman was going to be rubbing shoulders with royalty and leading armies.

I figured this is what you meant by the church example. But if you know the story to its full, it's not quite as clear-cut as you make it seem here. Whereas there IS at least an equally famous Greek woman: Aspasia. Who probably controlled the entire city-state of Athens through her husband, Perikles.

I'd say Aspasia > Joan of Arc.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Some things of note: Salic law prevents women from inheriting property or titles. This was the common law in Europe, except for England. The hundred year war was in fact caused by this. In England women were in a MUCH better position than continental Europe.

Greece was also NOT a unified polity. In Sparta women had much more rights than in Athens for example. That's why i said "sometimes."

And renown != authority.

/E: Forgot to mention but i do know of ONE instance of Salic law making an exception in the case of a woman inheriting land with no surviving male heirs.

Yeah, I know but my post still stands. Spartans were a bunch of brutal proto-fascists who would murder helots as part of their military training, so I guess a step forward in one area is two steps back in another. Generally women had more opportunities in the Middle Ages than in ancient Greece.