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Poor and Homelessness

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
This just shows what standards you think "civilization" needs.

Me and the vast majority of people, yeah. Education is good. Infrastructure is good. Electricity is good. Indoor plumbing is good.

If you don't think so...I don't know what to tell you? :shrug:

It's actually quite common for societies that have Hunter gatherers populations nearby "civilized" ones, to actually have a shift of people leaving FOR that lifestyle HG), not towards civilization. Because it ultimately is easier.

Godspeed.

What social mobility? In the Ju, there is no social stratification. A clan head doesn't really dictate what does or does not get done for instance (he's not a government body).

I'm talking about the ability to pave one's own path in life. What career options do they have? How likely is it that they can achieve success that their parents didn't? How much money do they make? Do they own vehicles that enable them to travel long distances?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Isn't trickle down economics how Big Government works? Big Government, via the IRS and Congress, commandeer your tax dollars and then deficit spend these along with future tax dollars. With all this money in hand, they tell us they are dealing with the poor, yet the rate poverty has not changed in 40 years. It this because of stupidity or corruption?
No. Trickle-down economics is how small, privatized, deregulated government works-- or doesn't work.
Those in power; at the top, need the poor, too forever be seen as poor, to maintain their own status as providers. The poor are pawns in this political power equation. The Government led War on Poverty has spent $10 Trillion and has not change the rate of poverty on 40 years.
That's because it ended 50 years ago, as a right-wing and corporate backlash, plus the increasing social unrest from the Vietnam controversy effectively stifled it.
The programs are not designed to change the percent, but are an excuse to perpetuate wasteful and incompetent government programs. Government has become the problem and not the solution.
History has not born that out. Head Start, VISTA, TriO, Job Corps, &al, were very successful -- while they lasted. Prosperity has decreased since the Reagan Revolution. Unchecked, -- unregulated -- business becomes predatory and rife with expensive externalities, costing a fortune in health, treasure, opportunity &c.
The amount of money spent on the poor is staggering. To support a single mother and two children you need to pay rent, food and clothing, transportation and medical, as well as all the overhead for the bureaucracy; wages, benefits; medical, vacations and large pension plans for early retirement. If we eliminated the bureaucracy. and give the total directly to the poor, the poor will become middle class; problem solved.
So just throw them a fish, eh? And "giving the total directly to the poor" sounds suspiciously socialist...:eek:

We did eliminate the bureaucracy. We "strangled it in in the bath." We allowed the corporatists unregulated, small-government, free reign. That's what created the massive poverty, unaffordable rents and education, soaring health-care costs and stagnant wages we see today. It's what eliminated pensions and unions.
Unfortunately, the Democrats put themselves in charge of the poor, and through their own incompetence and waste, money goes into growing Big Government, which needs the poor stuck as perpetual pawns.
You've got it exactly backwards.
It was liberal, Big-Government policies that created the large, growing middle class, good wages and benefits, worker safety, environmental, food and water safety regs; access to affordable education and health care, and the growing prosperity we used to enjoy.
Big Government, ie: regulation, is the only entity with the power to prevent corporate exploitation and the money trickling up to the growing .001% -- at the expense of the working man.
I read that in rich states like Connecticut a single mother with two children costs about $37,000 per year in state and federal tax dollars. This total includes the cost of all the middle men. If we gave mom that $37,000 directly; $3000/month, she is now middle class. But Democrats and Big Government need the poor to be classified as poor; middle man skim, to justify wasting tax dollars on their own political needs. It a part of a big government and political money laundering scam.
A guaranteed income program?!

Exactly what programs/"political needs" are you talking about? It's Republican/Libertarian initiatives that are skimming money from the government -- enabled by deregulation.
The political left first screwed the country when they taught that alternate life styles were all just as good. The nuclear family, by all metrics, is the most efficient way to deal with many social problems, such as poverty. Divorce, for example, requires two households and more total expenses.
"Taught that alternative lifestyles are just as good" or tolerated alternative lifestyles? The political left promotes divorce?
The nuclear family is not all that efficient, housing wise. What about extended families, communes, even creshe systems? Way more housing efficient.
If you double the housing needs, housing prices to go up for all. This now exceeds the average bread winner wage and created poverty, where it had not been. This was by design. The very people who create the problem then tell us they are the solution, with solutions that create even more problems.
No, the housing shortage isn't a left-wing conspiracy.
If you want to tackle the housing shortage you need Big Government and Social spending, pretty much the opposite of what you seem to be advocating. The City That's Built An Affordable Housing Paradise
Now the push for many genders is another money pit, designed to create future problems and grow government. There is a push to reverse the damage done to the country by the political Left. They cannot be trusted to solve poverty since it gets worse. under their care. We need a new approach such as direct payments with zero middlemen cost.
What's a "push for many genders?" Are there new genders today that weren't always there?
...and wouldn't a unisex bathroom be cheaper and more efficient that two segregated bathrooms, if we're talking money, here? ;)

No. Where are you getting these stats, The Heritage Foundation?
Poverty decreased with left-of-center legislation. Prosperity increases.

The soaring costs today are due to deregulated graft and gouging by banks and right-wing corporatists. All the money's concentrated at the top, and The Top is not the government. It's the 001%

And what is "The Government" in a Democracy, if not the public, ie: the people?
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
I'm talking about the ability to pave one's own path in life. What career options do they have? How likely is it that they can achieve success that their parents didn't? How much money do they make? Do they own vehicles that enable them to travel long distances?

These aren't needs. They are wants. As such they don't really apply to them, which is kind of my point.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
These aren't needs. They are wants. As such they don't really apply to them, which is kind of my point.

Lots of things in life aren't literal needs for life that we still regard as positive goods in the world. People survived Auschwitz. That doesn't mean those conditions are morally acceptable or remotely desirable.

I'm well aware electricity isn't a literal "need" of survival. To suggest it doesn't demonstrably make people's lives easier is simply absurd.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
I'm well aware electricity isn't a literal "need" of survival. To suggest it doesn't demonstrably make people's lives easier is simply absurd.

True... But you are under the assumption that "easier" = "better"... which is not always the case.

Edit: In fact I would argue that hardship, trials, and doing things 'the hard way", is a better learning experience overall, and more of a positive then having things 'handed to us".
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Non-sequitor argument.... this doesn't really apply to the discussion.

Your argument seems to be that conditions are acceptable if they allow people to survive. My point is that my goal for my own life is not just survival. And my experience of other people is similar. People don't just want to survive. They want more than that.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
True... But you are under the assumption that "easier" = "better"... which is not always the case.

Edit: In fact I would argue that hardship, trials, and doing things 'the hard way", is a better learning experience overall, and more of a positive then having things 'handed to us".
...then why are you using electricity right now?
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
...then why are you using electricity right now?

Because it is a want, of which I can fulfill. But without it... Whatever.

I am purposely moving my self to more simple methods, tech wise.

example: Learning to grow my own food. Craft and heat my own home, without societal interference. Fish, Hunt, etc.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Your argument seems to be that conditions are acceptable if they allow people to survive.

I mean, imo, this is all that should matter.

The bare minimum to survive, and thrive.

Edit: A sort of societal application of the hiking/camping phrase of "leave no trace".
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Because it is a want, of which I can fulfill. But without it... Whatever.

I am purposely moving my self to more simple methods, tech wise.

example: Learning to grow my own food. Craft and heat my own home, without societal interference. Fish, Hunt, etc.

I see. So it's good for you. But others don't need the opportunity to use it.

I'd rather give them the autonomy to make that choice for themselves.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I mean, imo, this is all that should matter.

The bare minimum to survive, and thrive.

Edit: A sort of societal application of the hiking/camping phrase of "leave no trace".

Survive =/= Thrive

People survive all sorts of horrendous, awful conditions.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd rather we get hit with an EMP, ruining anything that has ever run on Electricity.

Useful, is still very subjective fyi.

And yet...again...you're still using electricity. Your own life calls your bluff, my friend lol.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So I'll take that as a "no."

That primitive societies survive without these things does not mean they are not obviously improvements that make life easier. I'm not making an extreme point here. Why do you think people from developed countries spend so much time and money and energy trying to raise people's standard of living in the poorest parts of the world? Because it has obvious benefits for people's lives.
Yet they often don't make life easier, and are often resisted by natives. Hunter-gatherers usually have way more free time than civilized peoples, and their subsistence activities are not toil.
Something as simple as giving a primitive a modern, steel axe, to replace his crude, stone axe, has been known to completely disrupt a society.
Yet oddly, you are not giving them up. :shrug:You're arguing that ignorance is bliss here. Which yes, I suppose to some degree it is. Knowing what I know about both ways of life, I'm well aware which life I'd prefer to live.
I'm not arguing/advocating anything, and I'm not criticizing your lifestyle. I'm just stating facts.
It was the agricultural revolution that necessitated technological advance by creating needs that didn't exist previously. The people didn't choose to advance, they had to advance.

Me, I'm forced to swim in the pond I was raised in. I'm thoroughly enculturated into a western, civilized lifestyle. Transplanted to a mud hut, I'd have a hard time learning the skills, attitudes, &c. necessary to thrive in a hunter-gatherer culture.
That doesn't change the fact that the average hunter-gatherer would usually score higher on happiness and mental health indices than the average American.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
And yet...again...you're still using electricity. Your own life calls your bluff, my friend lol.

I am and will be moving myself off-grid, as it becomes a possibility to do so. Unfortunately do to current societal constraints, this isn't as easy as picking up and walking into the woods.

THere is a lot of knowledge that our ancestors had and passed on that isn't anymore, and we need to rediscover and learn it's applications.
 
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