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Poor Arguments against Theism

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I see a lot of truly terrible arguments used against theism, not in specific categories but as a whole. I think that a lot of these arguments do work in certain contexts, when directed to certain interpretations or specific religions. The point if this is to address arguments that address theism over all. If one is truly interested in philosophy, the pursuit of truth, then I highly suggest you watch for these from yourself and others. I know I will be trying harder to!


Arguments from Holy Books


This is where an individual argues against theism based on the nature of their holy text(s). Often this is specifically the bible, but it can be any holy text at all. If holy texts are indeed invalid, this does not imply anything further than the rejection of the holy text as literal truth. That’s it, it certainly cannot be stretched to disprove all theistic positions. This is doubly important when individuals reject one specific holy text, such as the bible, and then conclude that every form of theism must be completely wrong.


Arguments based on False Association


Very often gods get compared to unicorns, tea pots, invisible, pink dragons, so forth and so on. At face value these seem almost convincing, but logically speaking they are flawed. For example, say that I claim to have an invisible unicorn in my garage, and compare it to the god of another theist. Since I am making a comparison, I am stating that my unicorn is of the same characteristics as their god, meaning that it is necessary, non-contingent, likely outside of space and time, indescribable, and so on. We can then look at my unicorn and make several observations: it is apparently limited to my garage, not outside of space and not outside of time (since my garage is temporal and rather new compared to the universe at large). How is my unicorn necessary? Without it would some fundamental aspect of reality be lost, such as order? Why do we know exactly what a unicorn looks like if it is indescribable? If the unicorn is a god claim, then it will have to be defended like a god claim. It may seem witty, but you’re comparing two separate things and pretending they are on the same ground.


Arguments against Bias


Everyone is susceptible to bias, basically end of story. Field of study will likely have a far greater impact on one’s control over bias than any philosophical path, and even those individuals have biases. So to point out that “people can be biased” is a waste of time, and dishonest when you ignore your own susceptibility.


“All” and “No” Arguments


These are the arguments where a claim is made such as “All theistic arguments have been shown unsound”, or “No theistic arguments can ever be shown sound”. These claims require omniscience. The former assumes that one is aware of literally every theistic argument ever made (theoretically impossible), and the latter assumes to know and be able to account for all possible theistic arguments. These are just plain bad logic, low level stuff. It’s a simple fix too, just avoid all and no statements except in very specific situations. Science itself is literally required to do this, as it has to be able to update and adapt to new knowledge. There is a nifty tool known as the “square of opposition” which illustrates this very clearly, and can help you call bull**** when people make such claims.


“You Can’t Show” Arguments


Another basic one that seems convincing on the outside, yet is logically flawed. Just because someone cannot show something does not make that thing untrue. This is a serious problem that happens on all sides of the debates, and is basically a useless objection anyways.


Argument that Arguments are not Evidence


More and more often it seems that individuals are claiming logical argumentation is not a form of evidence. This is problematic in a few different ways. For one, why not? We can reject positions based on them being logically flawed, in many cases specifically due to a lack of evidence! Logic is the foundation of all reality as we understand it. As an example, one can reject a square circle without ever appealing to evidence. It’s not that you were told there was no square circle (testimony), were taught it (memory), have looked literally everywhere in existence for one (sensory experience), or anything of the sort. It is simply a violation of logic, and so we can reject it, or accept the claim that no square circles exist. (This is also an example of an appropriate “no” argument”. Another problem is that evidence itself is useless, possibly even incomprehensible, without logical arguments. How do we decide what evidence is valid? Through what process do we determine something like “empirical evidence is greater than other evidence?”


Argument from Popularity


For some baffling reason, this argument seems to be used more and more often. This is the argument that (1) “Theist A does not believe _____X____”, (2) “Theists B – Z believe ____X___”, (3) “Therefore we can reject and ignore Theist A’s position.” This is nonsense, pure and simple.


Argument from the Definition of Faith


Throughout history, theists have been providing evidence they believe to be valid, and reasoning they believe to be sound, for the existence of their god(s). Whether or not you accept their evidence and arguments or not, they were indeed believing based on evidence and reason, even if poorly. Philosophers like Aristotle and Aquinas tried grounding their philosophy in empirical evidence (such as causality) for this very reason. In fact, the definition of faith often used to argue against theism is “faith without or against reason and evidence,” which comes specifically from Hebrews chapter 11. Further, the idea that reason and evidence should be rejected over belief is a very specific subset of faith that already has a philosophical term: fideism. Instead, faith can be seen as believing beyond what the reason and evidence confirm, though not necessarily against it. All that being said, relying on definitions over the intended meaning of any word is absurd.


Arguments from Skepticism


Somehow the term skepticism has moved from meaning one who questions everything to one who questions everything that is not strict naturalism. While skepticism finds it impossible to be satisfied with most answers, the modern take on it seem quite satisfied with naturalism, reductionism, and so forth. This really becomes a problem similar to the arguments against bias, because modern skepticism is, itself, not actually skeptical. It cannot accuse theists of not being skeptical enough while mostly ignoring the most serious problems of epistemology (such as the hard problem of solipsism).


Arguments from Prediction


This is another common one, which assumes to know how questions will be answered in the future. For example, accepting reductionism on the basis that, one day, we may be able to show that reductionism is true. This ties in with the all and no statement very well, because it again requires omniscience, or at least some sort of ability to literally see the future.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh, oh, oh! I have some to add!

Arguments from Generalizations
If I had a dollar for every argument against "theism" that was really just an argument against a specific type of theism, most often classical monotheisms of some particular Christian variety, it's quite possible I'd have my mortgage paid off. Back when I had the inclination and patience to read some of the anti-theist books on the mass market, I recall this being a serious flaw in each of them.

Ad Hominem Arguments

It's not uncommon to see people dismissing theisms by suggesting that people who incorporate theistic ideas into their worldview are somehow deficient or flawed human beings. Usually these attacks are cerebral in nature, claiming theists are "stupid" for thinking the way that they do. It should go without saying that ad hominem arguments like this do nothing for invalidating the various forms of theism out there.

Argument from Progress

There are many variations of the Myth of Progress, but these arguments presuppose that there is some linear track of advancement in human culture and civilization. These narratives are basically expressions of personal and cultural values, but are presumed to be true in a more objective sense by many who tell these stories. The linear progression is set up in such a way that places their own culture at the pinnacle of advancement, while others are deemed more primitive. This has been done by theists as well as atheists; classical monotheists tell their Myth of Progress as beginning with "primitive" animism, then "primitive" polytheism, until reaching the "advanced" state of monotheism. Non-theists tend to extend this narrative by relegating all theism to primitivism and "atheism" being the pinnacle of human achievement. While this is a fine story if it is one you prefer, it really doesn't constitute an argument against theism as much as an argument for your particular set of values.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Ad Hominem Arguments
It's not uncommon to see people dismissing theisms by suggesting that people who incorporate theistic ideas into their worldview are somehow deficient or flawed human beings. Usually these attacks are cerebral in nature, claiming theists are "stupid" for thinking the way that they do. It should go without saying that ad hominem arguments like this do nothing for invalidating the various forms of theism out there.
That isn't an ad hominem argument:

- "he's stupid, therefore his beliefs (such as his belief in God) are wrong.": ad hominem.

- "he believes in God, therefore he's stupid.": not an ad hominem. Insulting, but not an ad hominem.

It also wasn't an argument against theism.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I see a lot of truly terrible arguments used against theism, not in specific categories but as a whole. I think that a lot of these arguments do work in certain contexts, when directed to certain interpretations or specific religions. The point if this is to address arguments that address theism over all. If one is truly interested in philosophy, the pursuit of truth, then I highly suggest you watch for these from yourself and others. I know I will be trying harder to!


Arguments from Holy Books


This is where an individual argues against theism based on the nature of their holy text(s). Often this is specifically the bible, but it can be any holy text at all. If holy texts are indeed invalid, this does not imply anything further than the rejection of the holy text as literal truth. That’s it, it certainly cannot be stretched to disprove all theistic positions. This is doubly important when individuals reject one specific holy text, such as the bible, and then conclude that every form of theism must be completely wrong.


Arguments based on False Association


Very often gods get compared to unicorns, tea pots, invisible, pink dragons, so forth and so on. At face value these seem almost convincing, but logically speaking they are flawed. For example, say that I claim to have an invisible unicorn in my garage, and compare it to the god of another theist. Since I am making a comparison, I am stating that my unicorn is of the same characteristics as their god, meaning that it is necessary, non-contingent, likely outside of space and time, indescribable, and so on. We can then look at my unicorn and make several observations: it is apparently limited to my garage, not outside of space and not outside of time (since my garage is temporal and rather new compared to the universe at large). How is my unicorn necessary? Without it would some fundamental aspect of reality be lost, such as order? Why do we know exactly what a unicorn looks like if it is indescribable? If the unicorn is a god claim, then it will have to be defended like a god claim. It may seem witty, but you’re comparing two separate things and pretending they are on the same ground.


Arguments against Bias


Everyone is susceptible to bias, basically end of story. Field of study will likely have a far greater impact on one’s control over bias than any philosophical path, and even those individuals have biases. So to point out that “people can be biased” is a waste of time, and dishonest when you ignore your own susceptibility.


“All” and “No” Arguments


These are the arguments where a claim is made such as “All theistic arguments have been shown unsound”, or “No theistic arguments can ever be shown sound”. These claims require omniscience. The former assumes that one is aware of literally every theistic argument ever made (theoretically impossible), and the latter assumes to know and be able to account for all possible theistic arguments. These are just plain bad logic, low level stuff. It’s a simple fix too, just avoid all and no statements except in very specific situations. Science itself is literally required to do this, as it has to be able to update and adapt to new knowledge. There is a nifty tool known as the “square of opposition” which illustrates this very clearly, and can help you call bull**** when people make such claims.


“You Can’t Show” Arguments


Another basic one that seems convincing on the outside, yet is logically flawed. Just because someone cannot show something does not make that thing untrue. This is a serious problem that happens on all sides of the debates, and is basically a useless objection anyways.


Argument that Arguments are not Evidence


More and more often it seems that individuals are claiming logical argumentation is not a form of evidence. This is problematic in a few different ways. For one, why not? We can reject positions based on them being logically flawed, in many cases specifically due to a lack of evidence! Logic is the foundation of all reality as we understand it. As an example, one can reject a square circle without ever appealing to evidence. It’s not that you were told there was no square circle (testimony), were taught it (memory), have looked literally everywhere in existence for one (sensory experience), or anything of the sort. It is simply a violation of logic, and so we can reject it, or accept the claim that no square circles exist. (This is also an example of an appropriate “no” argument”. Another problem is that evidence itself is useless, possibly even incomprehensible, without logical arguments. How do we decide what evidence is valid? Through what process do we determine something like “empirical evidence is greater than other evidence?”


Argument from Popularity


For some baffling reason, this argument seems to be used more and more often. This is the argument that (1) “Theist A does not believe _____X____”, (2) “Theists B – Z believe ____X___”, (3) “Therefore we can reject and ignore Theist A’s position.” This is nonsense, pure and simple.


Argument from the Definition of Faith


Throughout history, theists have been providing evidence they believe to be valid, and reasoning they believe to be sound, for the existence of their god(s). Whether or not you accept their evidence and arguments or not, they were indeed believing based on evidence and reason, even if poorly. Philosophers like Aristotle and Aquinas tried grounding their philosophy in empirical evidence (such as causality) for this very reason. In fact, the definition of faith often used to argue against theism is “faith without or against reason and evidence,” which comes specifically from Hebrews chapter 11. Further, the idea that reason and evidence should be rejected over belief is a very specific subset of faith that already has a philosophical term: fideism. Instead, faith can be seen as believing beyond what the reason and evidence confirm, though not necessarily against it. All that being said, relying on definitions over the intended meaning of any word is absurd.


Arguments from Skepticism


Somehow the term skepticism has moved from meaning one who questions everything to one who questions everything that is not strict naturalism. While skepticism finds it impossible to be satisfied with most answers, the modern take on it seem quite satisfied with naturalism, reductionism, and so forth. This really becomes a problem similar to the arguments against bias, because modern skepticism is, itself, not actually skeptical. It cannot accuse theists of not being skeptical enough while mostly ignoring the most serious problems of epistemology (such as the hard problem of solipsism).


Arguments from Prediction


This is another common one, which assumes to know how questions will be answered in the future. For example, accepting reductionism on the basis that, one day, we may be able to show that reductionism is true. This ties in with the all and no statement very well, because it again requires omniscience, or at least some sort of ability to literally see the future.

Who would be so misguided as to believe any of those arguments would apply to Theism as a whole ?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
That isn't an ad hominem argument:

True or not, who cares? Use whatever term you want to describe that rubbish; the point still stands. There are much better things to nitpick in what has been said in the thread so far.


Arguments from Holy Books
To add an addendum to this one, it's particularly odd when this argument is used for the many theistic religions that don't have holy books (or approach them in a manner that is quite different than what many conjure in their minds as the supposed default). :D

Arguments based on False Association
This is one I find very interesting, and have at times considered starting a thread on it. I haven't because I'm concerned about the resulting discussion getting boggled down in miscommunications and lost meaning. I actually don't have a problem with the comparison depending on context. Trouble is, most often the comparison does seem to be used falsely or improperly - basically as a shorthanded put-down. Not sure how much deeper we want to dive into this.

Argument that Arguments are not Evidence
This one bugs me as well, but at the same time, people do have the right to decide what constitutes evidence for them. I find it foolish to say "that isn't evidence" as opposed to "I do not consider this acceptable evidence," but not everyone cares about such distinctions or is able to articulate them. As an aside, I find it interesting that the standards of evidence that some folks have for god(s) is, for whatever reason, a good deal more nitpicky than it is for many other aspects of their day-to-day lives. As a minority group, it seems that atheists get pressured into coming up for reasons for not caring about god(s), and that elicits some forced responses, when really how they feel can be little more than "I just don't care about this" or "this doesn't resonate with me." Our society as a whole is obsessed with "reasons" for things, which is silly considering that many of our behaviors and responses are emotional and whimsical. It should be okay for our responses to be that, and it should be okay for us to just say "I don't feel like it." But I digress...

All that being said, relying on definitions over the intended meaning of any word is absurd.
I think you will enjoy reading this article here, as it relates to this point.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
My instinct tells me that "God did it" is a Sunday School argument and not worth considering seriously. I will go with my instinct.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
True or not, who cares? Use whatever term you want to describe that rubbish; the point still stands. There are much better things to nitpick in what has been said in the thread so far.
Ah - I should have realized: this isn't a thread for reasonable discussion; it's a thread to slag on atheists. I should have realized from all the straw men in @1137 's OP. My mistake for misreading the situation.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I see a lot of truly terrible arguments used against theism, not in specific categories but as a whole. I think that a lot of these arguments do work in certain contexts, when directed to certain interpretations or specific religions. The point if this is to address arguments that address theism over all. If one is truly interested in philosophy, the pursuit of truth, then I highly suggest you watch for these from yourself and others. I know I will be trying harder to!


Arguments from Holy Books


This is where an individual argues against theism based on the nature of their holy text(s). Often this is specifically the bible, but it can be any holy text at all. If holy texts are indeed invalid, this does not imply anything further than the rejection of the holy text as literal truth. That’s it, it certainly cannot be stretched to disprove all theistic positions. This is doubly important when individuals reject one specific holy text, such as the bible, and then conclude that every form of theism must be completely wrong.


Arguments based on False Association


Very often gods get compared to unicorns, tea pots, invisible, pink dragons, so forth and so on. At face value these seem almost convincing, but logically speaking they are flawed. For example, say that I claim to have an invisible unicorn in my garage, and compare it to the god of another theist. Since I am making a comparison, I am stating that my unicorn is of the same characteristics as their god, meaning that it is necessary, non-contingent, likely outside of space and time, indescribable, and so on. We can then look at my unicorn and make several observations: it is apparently limited to my garage, not outside of space and not outside of time (since my garage is temporal and rather new compared to the universe at large). How is my unicorn necessary? Without it would some fundamental aspect of reality be lost, such as order? Why do we know exactly what a unicorn looks like if it is indescribable? If the unicorn is a god claim, then it will have to be defended like a god claim. It may seem witty, but you’re comparing two separate things and pretending they are on the same ground.


Arguments against Bias


Everyone is susceptible to bias, basically end of story. Field of study will likely have a far greater impact on one’s control over bias than any philosophical path, and even those individuals have biases. So to point out that “people can be biased” is a waste of time, and dishonest when you ignore your own susceptibility.


“All” and “No” Arguments


These are the arguments where a claim is made such as “All theistic arguments have been shown unsound”, or “No theistic arguments can ever be shown sound”. These claims require omniscience. The former assumes that one is aware of literally every theistic argument ever made (theoretically impossible), and the latter assumes to know and be able to account for all possible theistic arguments. These are just plain bad logic, low level stuff. It’s a simple fix too, just avoid all and no statements except in very specific situations. Science itself is literally required to do this, as it has to be able to update and adapt to new knowledge. There is a nifty tool known as the “square of opposition” which illustrates this very clearly, and can help you call bull**** when people make such claims.


“You Can’t Show” Arguments


Another basic one that seems convincing on the outside, yet is logically flawed. Just because someone cannot show something does not make that thing untrue. This is a serious problem that happens on all sides of the debates, and is basically a useless objection anyways.


Argument that Arguments are not Evidence


More and more often it seems that individuals are claiming logical argumentation is not a form of evidence. This is problematic in a few different ways. For one, why not? We can reject positions based on them being logically flawed, in many cases specifically due to a lack of evidence! Logic is the foundation of all reality as we understand it. As an example, one can reject a square circle without ever appealing to evidence. It’s not that you were told there was no square circle (testimony), were taught it (memory), have looked literally everywhere in existence for one (sensory experience), or anything of the sort. It is simply a violation of logic, and so we can reject it, or accept the claim that no square circles exist. (This is also an example of an appropriate “no” argument”. Another problem is that evidence itself is useless, possibly even incomprehensible, without logical arguments. How do we decide what evidence is valid? Through what process do we determine something like “empirical evidence is greater than other evidence?”


Argument from Popularity


For some baffling reason, this argument seems to be used more and more often. This is the argument that (1) “Theist A does not believe _____X____”, (2) “Theists B – Z believe ____X___”, (3) “Therefore we can reject and ignore Theist A’s position.” This is nonsense, pure and simple.


Argument from the Definition of Faith


Throughout history, theists have been providing evidence they believe to be valid, and reasoning they believe to be sound, for the existence of their god(s). Whether or not you accept their evidence and arguments or not, they were indeed believing based on evidence and reason, even if poorly. Philosophers like Aristotle and Aquinas tried grounding their philosophy in empirical evidence (such as causality) for this very reason. In fact, the definition of faith often used to argue against theism is “faith without or against reason and evidence,” which comes specifically from Hebrews chapter 11. Further, the idea that reason and evidence should be rejected over belief is a very specific subset of faith that already has a philosophical term: fideism. Instead, faith can be seen as believing beyond what the reason and evidence confirm, though not necessarily against it. All that being said, relying on definitions over the intended meaning of any word is absurd.


Arguments from Skepticism


Somehow the term skepticism has moved from meaning one who questions everything to one who questions everything that is not strict naturalism. While skepticism finds it impossible to be satisfied with most answers, the modern take on it seem quite satisfied with naturalism, reductionism, and so forth. This really becomes a problem similar to the arguments against bias, because modern skepticism is, itself, not actually skeptical. It cannot accuse theists of not being skeptical enough while mostly ignoring the most serious problems of epistemology (such as the hard problem of solipsism).


Arguments from Prediction


This is another common one, which assumes to know how questions will be answered in the future. For example, accepting reductionism on the basis that, one day, we may be able to show that reductionism is true. This ties in with the all and no statement very well, because it again requires omniscience, or at least some sort of ability to literally see the future.
Can you give actual examples of each of these? i.e. quotes from real atheists using these arguments in the way you describe?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
My instinct tells me that "God did it" is a Sunday School argument and not worth considering seriously. I will go with my instinct.

Cool, thanks for reminding me of another one! I never took this one seriously either. :D

Argument from Explanatory Power
Some folks seem to think that theism boils down to explanations for various phenomena or events out there in the world. As scientific understandings of phenomena become increasingly popular and accepted on contemporary culture, it is believed by some that the need for god(s) is shrinking because it's sole purpose is to explain things that the sciences do not know or cannot explain. There are a couple of problems with this argument. One, it tends to assume that the sciences are the sole authority on matters of truth and that no alternative methods are acceptable. This is sometimes called "scientism," a perspective that I find deeply ironic given it is in of itself a philosophical position, not a scientific statement. Two, the purpose of gods in a religion are not confined to explaining various phenomena, and even if they were in the past, there is no need to regard it that way in the present. At heart, the mythos told about the gods are sacred stories that serve to convey or articulate a culture's values and traditions. As an aside, the "existence" of the gods can be quite unimportant compared to the rituals, celebrations, and traditions that are meaningful to people. Perhaps the existence of "secular Christmas" is a fair example of this - the importance is in the tradition and less than "believing in" any particular mythos associated with it.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Ah - I should have realized: this isn't a thread for reasonable discussion; it's a thread to slag on atheists. I should have realized from all the straw men in @1137 's OP. My mistake for misreading the situation.

Can you possibly point out even one such straw man?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah - I should have realized: this isn't a thread for reasonable discussion; it's a thread to slag on atheists. I should have realized from all the straw men in @1137 's OP. My mistake for misreading the situation.

Reasonable discussion? Sorry, I guess I don't see how that nitpick has any discussion value because it doesn't address any of the substance of anything that was said. There's not much to respond to there at all. :shrug:

As for straw persons, why do you feel they are all straw persons? I've seen each and every one of those (more or less) come up at some point on these forums.

Speaking of which, just as a reminder, @1137, be sure you ask for permission if you quote anybody from the forums, or else it's a rule violation. I know there are tons of examples of this from around the forums, but we can't link to those or name names without someone's okay. You'll have to use external sources should you desires to grant 9-10ths' request.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't believe any atheist or skeptic believes arguing against a holy text or holy texts is an argument against theism. Rather it's am argument against that holy text being representational of truth in any significant way. Much less a divine way.

IPU, FSM, and Russell teapot are not false associations. But maybe look into more (both sides) about why they came up as the an argument and what they were, in fact, intended to counter.
Russel's teapot is specifcally about making scientifically unfalsifiable claims and it's relation to science. FSM was specifically about intelligent design and ID wedge strategies to get creationism taught in schools based on vague language that would allow for any ridiculous posit. IPU exists as contemporary satire poking fun at SOME deities with paradoxical qualities (like omnibevevolence and omnipotence, or personal and approachable yet the only communication is pure inference.)

As for why I'm a substance monist/don't believe in metaphysical deities, objects or substances, I'll leave this video here since it's accessible and explains better than I could:
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Argument from Progress
There are many variations of the Myth of Progress, but these arguments presuppose that there is some linear track of advancement in human culture and civilization. These narratives are basically expressions of personal and cultural values, but are presumed to be true in a more objective sense by many who tell these stories. The linear progression is set up in such a way that places their own culture at the pinnacle of advancement, while others are deemed more primitive.
There are two things at play here. One is legitimate scientific research. The other is an egoic interpretation of these levels or stages of growth or development as "I'm therefore better". In the first, there is supporting data which show repeatable and marked patterns upon which we can model our understanding in useful ways. In the second, there is immaturity of mind, like a ten year old imaging he's "better" than a five year old, whereas in reality being five, or ten, or twenty in all that is involved in those stages of growth are completely appropriate to the given age, even including those who think "I'm right and you're wrong".

To get rid of the models is not the solution. Growing up and not abusing what the research shows is what is called for. One does not go the path of denying biological evolution just because the Nazis used it to justify a form of "Social Darwinism". The models are not a myth. But nor should they be held as absolute Truth to beat others over the head with.

This has been done by theists as well as atheists; classical monotheists tell their Myth of Progress as beginning with "primitive" animism, then "primitive" polytheism, until reaching the "advanced" state of monotheism.
And that is actually not invalid. Each is a "higher" form of what had to come first before it. This is not a boast of a particular group over the other. It's an observation by developmentalists. In this particular instance the cultural philosopher and theorist Jean Gebser had mapped these forms as stages out, interestingly at the same time Piaget was mapping out human childhood development, unbeknownst to them at the time, I believe. There are direct parallels between what we see in cultural development and childhood development, as if it is compressed into us biologically from what was evolved historically. There is legitimacy to this understanding. However it doesn't make the 'higher' stage "right" and others "wrong" as is popularly interpreted in defense of ones own views over others. Again, it's the latter that's the problem, not the former.

Non-theists tend to extend this narrative by relegating all theism to primitivism and "atheism" being the pinnacle of human achievement.
Well, that is not something supported by the research or the data. That's simply arrogance and ignorance and self-importance on parade. Atheism is not a "higher stage". In fact, I consider it more a type of transitioning away from mythic-literalism into rational thinking, not exactly knowing what to do with the "God question", so to speak. The rational stage is in fact part of the stages, but atheism is only one way in which that rationality expresses itself.

Theism and atheism exist in the mythic stage too. Theism and atheism exist at the rational stage. Theism and atheism exist at the transrational stages as well. But what marks them out at each stage is HOW they are held and imagined. One does not grow out of theism like a stage of development. One evolves their thinking about the question. God at the rational stage looks a lot different than God at the mythic stage, up in the sky keeping track of your rights and wrongs towards others.

While this is a fine story if it is one you prefer, it really doesn't constitute an argument against theism as much as an argument for your particular set of values.
I completely agree with this statement.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
As for straw persons, why do you feel they are all straw persons? I've seen each and every one of those (more or less) come up at some point on these forums.
I didn't say they were all straw men. "All the straw men" just means that there are many.

But for a specific example, take the first one: "argument from holy books."

I've seen many arguments that have gone like this:

- the believer uses his holy book as justification for his beliefs.

- the non-believer argues against either the truth or reliability of the holy book.

- it comes out over the course of the debate that the holy book is the believer's only justification for elements of his faith... sometimes small details, sometimes the existence of God himself.

- the non-believer argues that the believer shouldn't accept the parts of his faith that are only justified by his holy book (on the basis of his argument against the holy book's truth or reliability).

I've never once seen an atheist argue anything like what @1137 describes:

individuals reject one specific holy text, such as the bible, and then conclude that every form of theism must be completely wrong.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Speaking of which, just as a reminder, @1137, be sure you ask for permission if you quote anybody from the forums, or else it's a rule violation. I know there are tons of examples of this from around the forums, but we can't link to those or name names without someone's okay. You'll have to use external sources should you desires to grant 9-10ths' request.
I give permission for you and @1137 to quote my other posts here on RF and I invite other atheists to also give their permission.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I didn't say they were all straw men. "All the straw men" just means that there are many.

But for a specific example, take the first one: "argument from holy books."

I've seen many arguments that have gone like this:

- the believer uses his holy book as justification for his beliefs.

- the non-believer argues against either the truth or reliability of the holy book.

- it comes out over the course of the debate that the holy book is the believer's only justification for elements of his faith... sometimes small details, sometimes the existence of God himself.

- the non-believer argues that the believer shouldn't accept the parts of his faith that are only justified by his holy book (on the basis of his argument against the holy book's truth or reliability).

I've never once seen an atheist argue anything like what @1137 describes:

Funny how you quoting me just so happens to cut out where I point out that this is just one scenario, and not the overall point of my objection. Isn't misquoting against forum rules? Either way, next!
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I've never once seen an atheist argue anything like what @1137 describes:

I think I might have seen it once from an obvious troll. Not sure I'd count that one, though. :D

That said, something occurs to me that's worth pointing out. It's not uncommon that I see people conflating religion and theism, so when they discuss sacred texts as ways to "disprove religion," from their perspective, this is analogous to disproving that particular type of theism (or at times, generalizing beyond that as the case may be). But on the whole, I agree that this one isn't particularly common - where it happens it's usually in the more roundabout way that I just described.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Funny how you quoting me just so happens to cut out where I point out that this is just one scenario, and not the overall point of my objection. Isn't misquoting against forum rules? Either way, next!
I didn't misrepresent you. You did imply that you've seen that behaviour.
 
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