Pope Francis criticised for questioning Nato and weapons sales

[ajay0]

Pope Francis have been criticised for questioning Nato and weapons sales in an interview with Italy’s Corriere della Sera

Pope Francis criticised for questioning Nato and weapons sales

The Pope has urged all Church leaders to continue opposing the war in Ukraine as a threat to world peace, after expressing uncertainty about Western arms supplies to Ukraine and suggesting a degree of shared Nato responsibility for hostilities.

In an interview last week with Italy’s Corriere della Sera, he suggested Nato might have been provocative by “barking at Russia’s door” and was equivocal about Western countries supplying “Ukrainian fighters” with weapons.

“I don’t know if it is the right thing to supply the Ukrainian fighters,” he said. “What seems indisputable is that both sides are trying out new weapons … The production and the sale of armaments is a disgrace, but few are bold enough to stand up against it.”

 

[Debater Slayer]

The deliberate obliviousness of the West to its colonial and criminal history has led to self-righteous justifications for all manner of irresponsibility from NATO and the U.S. in particular when handling the situation in Ukraine. Countries like the U.S., France, and the U.K. are now pretending to be peacemakers when they have been just as aggressive and criminal as Russia throughout multiple points in their history, up to and including the 21st century. Too many people in the Global South have known and experienced the effects of this.

Parenthetically, Noam Chomsky's thoughts on NATO's handling of the situation prior to the Russian invasion seem to be similar to the Pope's. I somewhat agree with Pope Francis here and think Western media have been launching a witch hunt against anyone who dares to imply that NATO haven't been innocent peacemakers in this situation. I agree with aiding Ukrainians with weapons, but I disagree that NATO acted in the best way they could to contain the escalation prior to the invasion.

 

[Revoltingest]

NATO isn't perfect.
Neither is Putin's Russia.....nor the Pope & his church.
However questioning the morality of assisting Ukraine with
weapons smacks of ignoring the evil of what Russia is
currently doing. And suggesting that NATO should submit
to Russia by allowing it to conquer its neighbors...ugh.

 

[paradox]

Pope Francis have been criticised for questioning Nato and weapons sales in an interview with Italy’s Corriere della Sera

Pope Francis criticised for questioning Nato and weapons sales

The trick is that Russian patriarch Kirill talked with pope who convinced him it was NATO who provoked war.
the reason why pope accepted that is to avoid issues with Kirill in the future, for the sake of dialogue.

 

[ajay0]

The upper class military-industrial complex capitalists and corporates are making hay as the sun shines with good weapons sales enriching their bank accounts.

However, both the american and european middle and lower classes are now suffering for the steep rise in inflation as a consequence of this war.

40-year-high US inflation self-inflicted - The Statesman


One in four Britons skip meals due to inflation, survey shows


https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/31/eur...cord-high-as-food-and-energy-prices-soar.html

 

[Revoltingest]

The upper class military-industrial complex capitalists and corporates are making hay as the sun shines with good weapons sales enriching their bank accounts.

However, both the american and european middle and lower classes are now suffering for the steep rise in inflation as a consequence of this war.

40-year-high US inflation self-inflicted - The Statesman


One in four Britons skip meals due to inflation, survey shows


https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/31/eur...cord-high-as-food-and-energy-prices-soar.html

Do you favor or oppose assisting Ukraine
fighting off the Russian invaders?

 

[Estro Felino]

NATO isn't perfect.
Neither is Putin's Russia.....nor the Pope & his church.
However questioning the morality of assisting Ukraine with
weapons smacks of ignoring the evil of what Russia is
currently doing. And suggesting that NATO should submit
to Russia by allowing it to conquer its neighbors...ugh.

The situation in Italy is that there is an ideological conflict between a left-wing wanting war, claiming to be Catholic...but apparently siding with bankers and high finance.
And a populist, democratic side, who repudiates war.

The Pope is entitled to condemn the political choices of an elected banker who became Prime Minister.

Lately the Pope is saying very sensible things.

 

[Revoltingest]

The situation in Italy is that there is an ideological conflict between a left-wing wanting war, claiming to be Catholic...but apparently siding with bankers and high finance.
And a populist, democratic side, who repudiates war.

The Pope is entitled to condemn the political choices of an elected banker who became Prime Minister.

Lately the Pope is saying very sensible things.

Which side of war is whom wanting or repudiating....Ukraine's
defense (with western assistance) or Russia's invasion?

 

[Stevicus]

NATO isn't perfect.
Neither is Putin's Russia.....nor the Pope & his church.
However questioning the morality of assisting Ukraine with
weapons smacks of ignoring the evil of what Russia is
currently doing. And suggesting that NATO should submit
to Russia by allowing it to conquer its neighbors...ugh.

In fairness, though, the Pope wasn't actually suggesting that NATO submit to Russia. He was just wondering aloud whether NATO was doing the right thing and whether NATO might have had a role in this.

 

[Revoltingest]

In fairness, though, the Pope wasn't actually suggesting that NATO submit to Russia. He was just wondering aloud whether NATO was doing the right thing and whether NATO might have had a role in this.

Exactly.
I addressed that.

 

[Estro Felino]

Which side of war is whom wanting or repudiating....Ukraine's
defense (with western assistance) or Russia's invasion?

Well...populists here will side with whoever opposes Soros.
That said... peace can only be achieved with peace.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well...populists here will side with whoever opposes Soros.
That said... peace can only be achieved with peace.

It's easier to understand if you address the
apparent players, ie, which are pro Ukraine's
defense, & which are pro Putin's invasion.

 

[Stevicus]

Exactly.
I addressed that.

You did? I must have missed it.

Still, it seems that even the Pope can't make a general call for peace without being portrayed as some kind of appeaser or collaborator. I just think there's something inherently wrong and misguided about such a method of argumentation. The "love it or leave it" or "those who aren't with us are against us" viewpoint is just plain wrong.

I hope we can at least agree on that.

 

[Revoltingest]

You did? I must have missed it.

Still, it seems that even the Pope can't make a general call for peace without being portrayed as some kind of appeaser or collaborator. I just think there's something inherently wrong and misguided about such a method of argumentation. The "love it or leave it" or "those who aren't with us are against us" viewpoint is just plain wrong.

I hope we can at least agree on that.

The Pope's call for peace included questioning
aiding Ukraine's resistance to invasion. Taking
a stand for peace by suggesting that defense
& attacking have irrelevant differences is really
taking no stand at all. He might as well have
said...
"I really like puppies, rainbows, & unicorns."

 

[Nimos]

The deliberate obliviousness of the West to its colonial and criminal history has led to self-righteous justifications for all manner of irresponsibility from NATO and the U.S. in particular when handling the situation in Ukraine. Countries like the U.S., France, and the U.K. are now pretending to be peacemakers when they have been just as aggressive and criminal as Russia throughout multiple points in their history, up to and including the 21st century. Too many people in the Global South have known and experienced the effects of this.

Parenthetically, Noam Chomsky's thoughts on NATO's handling of the situation prior to the Russian invasion seem to be similar to the Pope's. I somewhat agree with Pope Francis here and think Western media have been launching a witch hunt against anyone who dares to imply that NATO haven't been innocent peacemakers in this situation. I agree with aiding Ukrainians with weapons, but I disagree that NATO acted in the best way they could to contain the escalation prior to the invasion.

History changes, we don't hold all German people accountable for what Hitler did either, or the Italians for the Roman empire. It just happens to be Russia attacking Ukraine and it is not acceptable, no more acceptable than it were when the US and their allies attacked Iraq, unfortunately it just happens to be that these countries doesn't really follow the same rules as anyone else. Just as Putin is not going to be held accountable by what is going on in Ukraine either, despite what people might think.

Besides that, I don't think the NATO countries have tried to hide that they support Ukraine and their right to be a free country. Giving them weapon is obviously going to escalate the war, but what do people expect would happen? Ukraine is being attacked and are asking for help and it should be obvious for everyone that what Putin does is wrong, whether or not one like NATO or not.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

NATO isn't perfect.
Neither is Putin's Russia.....nor the Pope & his church.
However questioning the morality of assisting Ukraine with
weapons smacks of ignoring the evil of what Russia is
currently doing. And suggesting that NATO should submit
to Russia by allowing it to conquer its neighbors...ugh.

At the end of the day, I have to say I am in favour of NATO nations supporting the Ukraine. There are, as always in war, risks, but I think the risks of letting Russia get away with its naked aggression is riskier still, as it could give some comfort to China in its designs on Taiwan, and perhaps more.

 

[Estro Felino]

It's easier to understand if you address the
apparent players, ie, which are pro Ukraine's
defense, & which are pro Putin's invasion.

The only thing we can do is to try to dissuade the Russians.
But...since no NATO country has been attacked, my country has zero military obligations in this conflict. By international law and by constitutional law.

 

[Stevicus]

The Pope's call for peace included questioning
aiding Ukraine's resistance to invasion. Taking
a stand for peace by suggesting that defense
& attacking have irrelevant differences is really
taking no stand at all. He might as well have
said...
"I really like puppies, rainbows, & unicorns."

Well, I like puppies and rainbows. And if unicorns existed, I would like them, too.

I don't know what you're getting at when you say suggesting that defense and attacking have irrelevant differences. Can you clarify?

I think there's only a few ways peace can be attained. One is, either one side or the other has to be completely devastated and exhausted and is no longer physically or psychologically able to continue. That might take a while. Another way is to call for a cease fire and head to the bargaining table, but that doesn't appear likely to happen either.

Since we agree that Ukraine has every moral and legal right to defend itself from hostile invasion, the only other way is to find a way to convince Putin to call off the attack and withdraw completely back to the pre-2014 boundaries. We wouldn't have to appease Russia, but at least it would stop the war and the end the bloodshed. You seem to think that he would never make a deal, but maybe he would. If we can get the Russians to voluntarily stand down and stop being aggressive, that would be a good thing, no?

 

[Revoltingest]

The only thing we can do is to try to dissuade the Russians.
But...since no NATO country has been attacked, my country has zero military obligations in this conflict. By international law and by constitutional law.

We can help even non-NATO countries if we so choose.
Obligation isn't the only possible motive. As for dissuading
the Russians, this is a compelling argument....

 

[Koldo]

The deliberate obliviousness of the West to its colonial and criminal history has led to self-righteous justifications for all manner of irresponsibility from NATO and the U.S. in particular when handling the situation in Ukraine. Countries like the U.S., France, and the U.K. are now pretending to be peacemakers when they have been just as aggressive and criminal as Russia throughout multiple points in their history, up to and including the 21st century. Too many people in the Global South have known and experienced the effects of this.

Parenthetically, Noam Chomsky's thoughts on NATO's handling of the situation prior to the Russian invasion seem to be similar to the Pope's. I somewhat agree with Pope Francis here and think Western media have been launching a witch hunt against anyone who dares to imply that NATO haven't been innocent peacemakers in this situation. I agree with aiding Ukrainians with weapons, but I disagree that NATO acted in the best way they could to contain the escalation prior to the invasion.

In fairness, though, the Pope wasn't actually suggesting that NATO submit to Russia. He was just wondering aloud whether NATO was doing the right thing and whether NATO might have had a role in this.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter though if NATO could have done anything different to prevent the escalation on this case, since it wasn't the one that invaded Ukraine.