Pope Francis: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven

[Vouthon]

True, but I was wondering about this from the Pope's point of view. If I am a good person who does not want to go to heaven, will I still end up being imprisoned there for all eternity?

Heaven's not a "place" Fantome. Its a state of being that you develop right here on earth and which lasts for eternity; eternity being "beyond time", a perpetual "Now" and not endless succession of time.

Heaven is something you are (or aren't) not some place you go too. That's why Jesus said that "the Kingdom of God is within you".

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Heaven's not a "place" Fantome. Its a state of being that you develop right here on earth and which lasts for eternity; eternity being "beyond time", a perpetual "Now" and not endless succession of time.

Heaven is something you are (or aren't) not some place you go too. That's why Jesus said that "the Kingdom of God is within you".

I know quite a lot of Catholics and none have said this. Out of curiosity where did you learn this?

 

[Me Myself]

Look, I didnt want to tell you this people but... I am actually the pope.

Just dont tell anybody, okay?

Oh and dont try to evidence me away by doing IPs mumbo jumbo. I have my pope tech to redirect it to some silly guy in Ecuador.

I love you all. I take nap.

 

[Me Myself]

I know quite a lot of Catholics and none have said this. Out of curiosity where did you learn this?

I think john paul II said something along those lines. At last about the heaven being a state thing.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Francis's support of liberation theology gives me hope.

Liberation theology is Marxist in nature. The Catholic Church is vehemently anti-Marxist. You make the connections

There is no certainty that he supports the political aspects of Liberation theology, and went out of his way to stop Jesuits in Argentina becoming politically active.
However there is no doubt that Jesus concentrated his teachings on the poor and disenfranchised, and many feel this should be the role of the Christian church today.

Liberation theology is not new, it is what many Christians have always believed.

Many Catholic Orders have concerned them self with the poor, Including his namesake St Francis.

There is a close connection between Liberation theology and Universal Salvation.

 

[Vouthon]

I know quite a lot of Catholics and none have said this. Out of curiosity where did you learn this?

Hello Monk,

The idea that heaven is a "state" and not a place is an old one in Catholic theology, although regrettably did not fully enter 'lay consciousness' until Blessed John Paul II said it openly in 1999. He was a philosopher who wanted to elevate the understanding of the laity. Lay folk often had a "Dante-esque" fictional view of heaven and hell.

Heaven is communion with God. The Book of Maccabees actually uses the term "Heaven" as a name for God. The Catechism describes it as "the entry of God's creatures into the perfect unity of the Holy Trinity".

JPII explained it most succinctly:

Heaven is Fullness of Communion with God

Heaven as the fullness of communion with God was the theme of the Holy Father's catechesis at the General Audience of 21 July 1999. Heaven "is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit," the Pope said.

1. When the form of this world has passed away, those who have welcomed God into their lives and have sincerely opened themselves to his love, at least at the moment of death, will enjoy that fullness of communion with God which is the goal of human life.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, "this perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed is called "heaven'. Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfilment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness" (n.1024).

...

In the context of Revelation, we know that the "heaven" or "happiness" in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit.

It is always necessary to maintain a certain restraint in describing these "ultimate realities" since their depiction is always unsatisfactory. Today, personalist language is better suited to describing the state of happiness and peace we will enjoy in our definitive communion with God.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church sums up the Church's teaching on this truth: "By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened' heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ" (n. 1026).

Hell likewise is not a place:

"...Hell is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life...The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy..."Eternal damnation", therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state...The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom..."

- Blessed Pope John Paul II (General Audience, July 28, 1999)

And just in case you think its a new idea:

"...Heaven is untouched by time and place. Corporeal things have no place there, and whoever is able to read the scriptures aright is well aware that heaven contains no place. Nor is it in time...Nothing hinders the soul from knowing God as time and place. Time and place are fractions, and God is one...Whatever I know to be God's will - the longer, the better, and the greater the pain, the greater the joy. For to do God's will is heaven, so the longer the will lasts, the longer the heaven, and the greater the pain from God's will, the greater the blessedness..."

- Meister Eckhart (1260-1328), Catholic mystic, theologian and Dominican priest

"...Incorporeal things [ie spirits] are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us..."

- Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 1274), Summa Theologia, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1, Doctor of the Catholic Church

"...We speak of hell, of purgatory, and of heaven...God is in all things and all things are in God...Hell is nothing but a state. Whatever is anyone's state of being [here on earth] remains their being for all eternity, if they are found in this state [when they die]...The people who adhere to their creatureliness must remain in that mode of being which is called hell. In the same manner the ones who do not let anything else but God reside in their being retain their being as it is. God becomes their being...One says of Judgement Day that God will preside over it. One also says that he will give judgement. That is true. But it is not the way people envision it. Every human being judges himself; as he appears there in his being, so will he remain. Now many people say that the body will rise with the soul. That is true. But it is not the way people understand it...The being of the body joins the being of the soul which then becomes one being...You should know that their misery lasts eternally...Yet the people who stand in the divine presence remain untouched. When their souls separate from the bodies they remain in the being of the divine presence to the extent to which they have known and loved God. After Judgement Day the being of the body and the being of the soul become one being in the divine presence...[Of Mary whose body went to heaven with her soul, it says:] God let happen [to her] what should happen [to her] on Judgement Day. He did it out of fitting love...Thus, with divine help the soul's being took with it the being of the body and was elevated...the being of the body which would have followed the soul on Judgement Day..."

- The Sister Catherine Treatise (written 1300s AD), Catholic mystic [of Eckhart School]

Perhaps you could relay this to your Catholic friends

 

[Silver Wolf]

I know how this is going to end.
1. The Pope will try to spread love & tolerance, while the Church tries to "Oh, people just misinterpreted him, here's what he really meant." They did the same with John Paul II.
2. After his death, the Church will elect an ultraconservative Pope.
3. That Pope will undo all of Francis' hard work.

Gargle, spit, rinse, and repeat.

 

[allright]

So what exactly would one have to to to guarantee that they won't end up in heaven? :help:

nothing

 

[nazz]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Personally I believe heaven and hell can be both states and places but that neither is necessarily eternal. By that I mean choice does not end with death.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

It seems universal salvation is a very old understanding and was confirmed as orthodox in vatican 2
It could be Pope Francis is firming up on this.

This was the understanding of some of the early Greek fathers as well. The three Cappadocian fathers, St. Basil, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory Nazianzus, all taught universal salvation. If I'm not mistaken, so did St. Clement of Alexandria, and so did Origen. All Pope Francis is doing, is confirming what they taught, it's not new to more modern liberal approaches to Christianity.

 

[gilligan8914]

I am starting to think that this pope might not be catholic.

 

[psychoslice]

But why should a belief system just stay stagnent, truth is ever flowing, this Pope is flowing with truth, he is taking the church to new hights, this is how it should be, not locked in a prison of dogma.

 

[SageTree]

Francis's support of liberation theology gives me hope.

Liberation theology is Marxist in nature. The Catholic Church is vehemently anti-Marxist. You make the connections

Basically Terry nailed it.

To call it 'liberal' would be to say perhaps that it's the facet that changed.
They might be liberal with their self-giving....
But that is a traditional value, and orthodox value....
which the continuation of for 2000 years, we'll say, would make it conservative as a mainstay.

You follow that line?

However I don't completely disagree that Christianity is mutually exclusive from many Marxist and Socialist policy.

There is no certainty that he supports the political aspects of Liberation theology, and went out of his way to stop Jesuits in Argentina becoming politically active.
However there is no doubt that Jesus concentrated his teachings on the poor and disenfranchised, and many feel this should be the role of the Christian church today.

Liberation theology is not new, it is what many Christians have always believed.

Many Catholic Orders have concerned them self with the poor, Including his namesake St Francis.

There is a close connection between Liberation theology and Universal Salvation.

 

[SageTree]

This was the understanding of some of the early Greek fathers as well. The three Cappadocian fathers, St. Basil, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory Nazianzus, all taught universal salvation. If I'm not mistaken, so did St. Clement of Alexandria, and so did Origen. All Pope Francis is doing, is confirming what they taught, it's not new to more modern liberal approaches to Christianity.

No doubt, I'm loving this 'new, progressive, liberal' theology.




Pay attention in history class kids.
Well, actually.... read church history, kids, you might find something refreshing and 'new'.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I am starting to think that this pope might not be catholic.

Of course you knowledge of Catholic Theoleogy, exceeds that of a lifelong Jesuit and Pope.

 

[gilligan8914]

How did you know?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Romans 2:14-15 (NIV)

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[LuisDantas]

How do you interpret that, Jeremy?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Ah, a liberal Catholic.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

How do you interpret that, Jeremy?

Good question. My understanding is that people who have not heard of the law, but act in accordance with the law by doing what's right according to their conscientiousness are justified. The law was written in our hearts.