Pope makes eejits of the Church again.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I perfectly understand that. Maybe that's because you are familiar with the Christian point of view and not the Muslim one. Although we acknowledge the affect sins have on humanity as a whole, but we have no right to coerce others to follow our path, but we can pray for the safety and guidance of humanity, and we try to explain for humanity what God says, without having the urge to convert them for the sake of our own safety.

I see.

I think I'm used to the point of view expressed in the saying "your right to swing your arms around ends at the tip of my nose": basically, that the more your decisions affect me, the greater right I should have to control how you make those decisions. When I hear people say things like "_____ affects everyone", I expect it to be followed by something like "so everyone should have a say in _____."

I hope you got my earlier point to Penguin that we don't have that urge to convert people or stop them from committing sins. We don't have the right to control people lives and choices, but we try to do good to make some balance in this life. Note that, doing good is not something which can be done by Muslims, it can be done by non-Muslims too, but the affect of this goodness would benefit the non-Muslims and humanity as a whole in this earthly life, but not the after life.

EDIT: as a side note, as Muslims, we are ordered by God in the Quran to ask people to do good and avoid evil but we don't force them to do so.

Fair enough. I think I may have jumped to conclusions a bit there.

 

[danny vee]

Danny Vee,


You are getting farther and farther away from Christianity, Homosexuality is a behavioural choice, Christians know this and also that “But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. “Blessed is the man who endures temptation, because having been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
.

The man who endures temptation? But if it is like this then why are people allowed to get married? That's temptation too, non gays feel temptation towards the opposite sex are you saying that we should resist this? Homosexuality is not a behavioral choice. It's been studied widely to begin in the fetus as a chemical result of unright testosterone levels. The person themself can't help it. If we straight people are allowed to give in to our "temptation" and get married with the opposite sex, shouldn't gays be allowed to also? And if I'm promoting love then how is that far from Christianity? Just because pagans didn't believe in the One God Almighty doesn't mean they were horrible twisted creatures of Satan! They were still capable of showing love, and love, NO MATTER what form, is always good. If you can come up with a type of love that is negative in any way please do and back up your theory.

 

[challupa]

It is the environment in which we live, all the chemicals that have been introduce into the food chain, hormones in chickens, genetically engineered food, antibiotic, grow hormone, animal feeds manipulation for faster growth, etc, the world we live in is nothing like it was at the time of creation, it has been changed/manipulated, most of the effect of these improvement are an unknown. so birth defect should not surprise us.

Okay, that answers the first part of the question. Now what happens to this person with the birth defect? How do they choose what sex they should be?

Also, this is directed to anyone with knowledge of this rare disease. Do we know how long babies have been born with this disorder? Is it really due to our 20th century pollution? Maybe another thread should be started for this. Don't want to high jack this one. Thoughts?

 

[Storm]

Considering that it's genetic, not evironmental, blaming pollution is rather silly.

 

[challupa]

Considering that it's genetic, not evironmental, blaming pollution is rather silly.

In all fairness though, we are seeing more genetic disorders because of pollution. Lower sperm counts may be a bad example, but I've heard that is caused by the estrogens that are in plastics. Again, someone can correct me if that information is incorrect.

 

[Storm]

Well, I'm no dr., but I don't see how lower sperm count is a genetic disorder.

 

[challupa]

Well, I'm no dr., but I don't see how lower sperm count is a genetic disorder.

You're right, it's not, bad example. I guess I saw it as a hormonal imbalance that effected males due to the estrogen and wondered if it was linked in any way to birth defects that have hormonal anomalies.

 

[gnomon]

It is the environment in which we live, all the chemicals that have been introduce into the food chain, hormones in chickens, genetically engineered food, antibiotic, grow hormone, animal feeds manipulation for faster growth, etc, the world we live in is nothing like it was at the time of creation, it has been changed/manipulated, most of the effect of these improvement are an unknown. so birth defect should not surprise us.

I've already attempted to educate you on this matter.

Rather than exhibiting ignorance I recommend going back to the thread where you failed to even attempt to understand intersex. Doing otherwise is nothing more than an attempt to justify a belief in the God that failed.

Also, this is directed to anyone with knowledge of this rare disease. Do we know how long babies have been born with this disorder? Is it really due to our 20th century pollution? Maybe another thread should be started for this. Don't want to high jack this one. Thoughts?

The broad spectrum of sexual identity as well as gender identity preexists the industrial age. Whe can interpret mythology to show that human knowledge of intersex, formerly known as hermaphroditism, goes back to the Sumerians.

Dependent upon the criteria used to define intersex the numbers could range from .018% to as much as 1.7%. Or, out of roughly a population of 300 million:54,000 to over 5,000,000. According to the ISNA,
How common is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America

But you are right, the issue of sexual bimorphism and its relevant validity is another thread entirely.

 

[anders]

What the Pope meant is probably what's discussed here, but in all fairness

This article has been amended to make it clear the Pope made no direct reference to homosexuals or transsexuals.

 

[Autodidact]

Morality reduced?

Who's morality do you use as a standard?

Mine.

And why?

Whose else would I use?

 

[Autodidact]

Well, there is a very famous saying amongst Muslims, but i don't know who first said it, "no sin after disbelief", which means, if someone don't believe in God in the first place, so it doesn't matter what other sins he commit, in the sense that if he doesn't know God, so he wouldn't know the things God consider to be sins. Got what i mean?

I don't have any problem with homosexuals as people, but as a Muslim, i reject the act, not them having homosexuality drive. They are free to do what they want as long as that doesn't affect me personally, but i know that the sins of human beings as a whole cause God's wrath.



Nope, i don't care who is following our rules and who don't.

So, if I follow you correctly, you have no problem with homosexuals doing whatever they want, as long as they don't?

 

[England my lionheart]

Saving the world from homosexuality is as important as saving the rainforests. Yes really.
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Pope attacks blurring of gender

Its a shame someone with this much influence has'nt put it to use like encouraging people to use contraception.

 

[emiliano]

The man who endures temptation? But if it is like this then why are people allowed to get married? That's temptation too, non gays feel temptation towards the opposite sex are you saying that we should resist this? Homosexuality is not a behavioral choice. It's been studied widely to begin in the fetus as a chemical result of unright testosterone levels. The person themself can't help it. If we straight people are allowed to give in to our "temptation" and get married with the opposite sex, shouldn't gays be allowed to also? And if I'm promoting love then how is that far from Christianity? Just because pagans didn't believe in the One God Almighty doesn't mean they were horrible twisted creatures of Satan! They were still capable of showing love, and love, NO MATTER what form, is always good. If you can come up with a type of love that is negative in any way please do and back up your theory.

Now you are really confusing me, are you saying that the decision to get married is a temptation,? In Christianity this is obeying God command, marriage was instituted by God Himself, and God has promised us that if He is for us we will overcome every temptation to sin, getting married is not a sin, is it? You cannot sexually lust after a person of the same sex as you, that is sin and if you are tempted you can overcome it if you seek God’s help, sexually lusting after another man’s spouse is a temptation that if acted upon lead to sin, there are many kind of love; the love of a man for another is brotherly love, there are filial love also, what kind of love gays have? You are not promoting the love that God wants us to have for persons of the same sex. I don’t know if you are Christian or what kind of doctrines you follow, but I can tell you that scripture call these deviants Satan’s synagogues.
Heb 13:9 Do not be carried about with different and strange doctrines, for it is good for the heart to be established with grace, not with foods, in which those who have walked in them were not helped.
Mar 7:7 However, they worship Me in vain, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but try the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
The Lord was clear on this Mat 19:4 And He answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female",
This is what marriage is, it purpose is:
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth.
I don’t where you get confused, it is so clear. That the link that the Pope made to the creation to the beginning “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female".

 

[emiliano]

Its a shame someone with this much influence has'nt put it to use like encouraging people to use contraception.

He does, it called abstinence, if you don't want children for any reason don't have sex in certain days of the month and Bob's your uncle!:shout

 

[emiliano]

Okay, that answers the first part of the question. Now what happens to this person with the birth defect? How do they choose what sex they should be?

Also, this is directed to anyone with knowledge of this rare disease. Do we know how long babies have been born with this disorder? Is it really due to our 20th century pollution? Maybe another thread should be started for this. Don't want to high jack this one. Thoughts?

Well we just started the year so there are good chances that we may have a thread on this subject, the answer to your question, at present the parent decide what sex they think their baby should be readdressed to, this is on the advice of doctors and specialist in many fields, informed consent is given by the parent and surgery and hormones treatment are initiated, that is what is done, they have made great progress in correcting this defects, but it is no completely successful, sometimes they get it wrong.

 

[England my lionheart]

He does, it called abstinence, if you don't want children for any reason don't have sex in certain days of the month and Bob's your uncle!:shout

But contraception helps prevent sexually transmitted deceases which in these promiscuous times would be helpful especially in the third world HIV shows no sign of letting up.

 

[Autodidact]

He does, it called abstinence, if you don't want children for any reason don't have sex in certain days of the month and Bob's your uncle!:shout

Or better yet, just practice only gay sex--best of both worlds.

 

[Father Heathen]

He does, it called abstinence, if you don't want children for any reason don't have sex in certain days of the month and Bob's your uncle!:shout

But trying to repress ones own libido is ridicilous and unrealistic, not to mention unhealthy (why do you think so many catholic priests like to molest children?). Worthless, irrational superstitions will never serve as feasible solutions for real world issues. How much damage will the church selfishly bring upon the world (such as fueling the aids epidemic in Africa, for example) just to humor it's own goofy religious sentiments? The senile, deluded pope needs that silly hat slapped right off his head.

 

[TashaN]

So, if I follow you correctly, you have no problem with homosexuals doing whatever they want, as long as they don't?

In term of *sins* which the OP talk about, and how it affect humanity, i hope they don't do what cause God anger, just like fornication and adultrey. It's not about descrimination against homosexuals. From a legal point of view, i don't have a problem with them having relations, but from a spiritual point of them, i can see how their act would harm humanity as a whole in the long term.

 

[Father Heathen]

In term of *sins* which the OP talk about, and how it affect humanity, i hope they don't do what cause God anger, just like fornication and adultrey. It's not about descrimination against homosexuals. From a legal point of view, i don't have a problem with them having relations, but from a spiritual point of them, i can see how their act would harm humanity as a whole in the long term.

How? How does it harm or affect humanity? You people keep regurgitating that tired line, yet continuously fail to actually explain how.