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Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
As I said before, and I will say this one more time, I have no problem with the pope advocating for abstinence, but this is unrealistic.

My real problem with the pope (and the vatican and other churches) is that he is telling people NOT TO USE CONDOMS!!!
Alright, I'll really try to understand this now, since you don't understand my position, someone has to try to see the other side. So, while it's insane to expect people to follow the Pope's advice on abstinance, people will listen to the Pope's advice on condoms. We are worried that these people, who may or may not be Catholic, will still adhere to this one and only one doctrine that the Pope professes. Because the Pope states that it is a FACT that condoms make things worse, rather than his beliefs, people will still listen to him, and this will make the AIDS epidemic work. Do I get the idea?

Regardless of his good intention, it would do far more damages, and spread the diseases further in Africa. That's the nutshell of this whole papal-condom fiasco.
I think that while you may be right, it's also possible that this may not happen. We don't know until we actuall gather the information to graph it and see whether the problem has worsened or not.

And personally I don't like him. And I am not just talking about now. It goes all the way back I first of him when he was just one of the nominees. I think he was mistake back then, and this incidence only reinforce my view of the current pope.
Fair enough, your view is your view.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
If that's the case, you're in the wrong religion.

Anyway, nobody is saying the church needs to spend money on birth control. You'd be surprised to find how inexpensive not lying is these days. Compared to financial compensation to the victims of Catholic sexual predation, telling the truth about condoms is a bargain.

Ah! So you have different position than most of the other participants in this discussion. I don’t know where you going with the lying bit though, but I remind you that the OP in no way says that the Pope said anything about the cost of the free condoms campaign or that they could be purposely contaminated, and is about time that you stop presenting pedophilia as affecting the RCC ministers exclusively, this is a social problem and what I tried to tell you is that I don’t mind given money to the church to it enable them to restore and compensate the victims of priest, and that the money is well spent. As I said in an earlier post: write, e-mail the information that you have on these RCC priest to the Vatican and demand that this is stopped, have you ever done this? Pedophilia affects people from all sorts walks, race and religious faiths and the approach to it is universal, restoration, compensation and punishment to the perpetrators.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
As I have noted before in this thread, Abstinence Only Education has been proven infective!!
Facts
AIDS is spreading faster in Africa than on any other continent.
The largest number of newly infected are babies.
The largest christian denomination in Africa is the RCC.
There is no Biblical basis for banning artificial contraception.
The Pope has the authority to authorize artificial contraception to reduce deaths.

As far as I know this is not the only campaign currently going in Africa, the free condoms distribution campaign is there also, so if it is a failure, the free condom campaign must own up to the fact that it failed, what people here fails to recognize is that you cannot have it both ways, if the Pope is irrelevant and nobody listens to him, they cannot blame him for the failure, also people must consider that the Pope is a spiritual leader and that the libertinage that this creates is not only physically fatal but that is also spiritually fatal
 

Alceste

Vagabond
So, while it's insane to expect people to follow the Pope's advice on abstinance, people will listen to the Pope's advice on condoms. We are worried that these people, who may or may not be Catholic, will still adhere to this one and only one doctrine that the Pope professes. Because the Pope states that it is a FACT that condoms make things worse, rather than his beliefs, people will still listen to him, and this will make the AIDS epidemic work. Do I get the idea?

No. Not exactly. False facts will inevitably take on lives of their own apart from their religious origins, in a largely illiterate culture. This goes for Africa, and also for the US, where the anti-condom campaign is intentionally divorced from its religious origins to encourage young people not to associate their false beliefs about condoms with religion.

Here's how it works: Sam and Pam are fooling around. Pam says "please, would you wear a condom Sam?" Sam says "No way! Condoms are laced with HIV, didn't you know? Besides, they don't even prevent pregnancy. They're like nets that sperm can pass through." Pam says "Really? Where did you hear that from?" Sam way more likely to say "Everybody knows it!" or "I heard about it on the radio" than "the pope says so." Why? Because it makes a better argument for not wearing a condom, and unprotected sex feels better to men. If Pam believes this, she can sit down to tea with her neighbours and say "Sam heard it on the radio", or "everybody knows" in complete sincerity and POOF. Nothing to do with the pope or the church. It's just a wandering unit of misinformation.

I honestly don't know why anyone is having trouble seeing this. "Do not have sex before marriage" is clearly a religious opinion - an imperative statement you can obey or disobey. "Condoms are permeable to HIV and sperm / are laced with HIV / hasten the spread of HIV" are false statements of fact, not imperative statements you can obey or disobey. When people aren't wearing condoms because they've been subjected to religious "abstinence education", they are not "obeying the pope". They are "believing false statements of fact".

It doesn't matter who such claims come from - anyone with a platform that can be used to spread false facts with very little competition can change the "common sense" of a continent. (Take Faux News for example.) The RCC is using their position of influence in Africa to misinform the entire continent about the effectiveness of condoms in the prevention of infection and unwanted pregnancy.

I think that while you may be right, it's also possible that this may not happen. We don't know until we actuall gather the information to graph it and see whether the problem has worsened or not.

So, you are saying, it's OK for the pope - the voice of Christ on earth according to Victor - to LIE to the Catholic church, the media, and the whole world, and to refuse to chastise other liars within the church, and to refuse to prohibit the spread of misinformation about methods of disease control by clergy. That's alright with you until the facts have been gathered and the statistics crunched and analyzed (presumably by the secular community, since fact-gathering is not a particular strength of the RCC) and scientists establish whether or not the forked-tongue approach to abstinence advocacy has had any effect?

How very Machiavellian. I think where we disagree is that believe lying is always wrong, even when the motive for deceit is what someone considers to be a positive outcome. For some Catholics (those who are not disgusted by the RCC's position on condoms), it seems, lying is OK, as long as the lies are believed to further the cause of sexual repression, and sexual repression is believed to further the cause of spiritual salvation.
 
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logician

Well-Known Member
As far as I know this is not the only campaign currently going in Africa, the free condoms distribution campaign is there also, so if it is a failure, the free condom campaign must own up to the fact that it failed, what people here fails to recognize is that you cannot have it both ways, if the Pope is irrelevant and nobody listens to him, they cannot blame him for the failure, also people must consider that the Pope is a spiritual leader and that the libertinage that this creates is not only physically fatal but that is also spiritually fatal

This post really doesn't make any sense. The pope's message must fail, because it is plain wrong in the face of reality.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
This post really doesn't make any sense. The pope's message must fail, because it is plain wrong in the face of reality.

The percentage of non-Catholics in non-Islamic Africa is about 80 per cent. Irrespective of what the church preaches, it would not be heard by them. Likewise, it is unlikely that those Catholics who ignore the church’s teaching by having multiple sexual partners – one of the main ways of contracting HIV – would listen to the church, even if it were to endorse condoms, which it won’t.
The millions of condoms flung at Africans for a quarter of a century have increased not reduced the rate of infection. Dr Edward C Green, director of the Aids prevention research project at the Harvard Centre for Population and Development Studies, has confirmed this. He has said studies, including the US- funded Demographic and Health Surveys, have shown a consistent association between greater availability and use of condoms and higher HIV infection rates.
Green has also said the pope is correct in stressing monogamy. In his own words: “The best and latest empirical evidence indeed shows that reduction in multiple and concurrent sexual partners is the most important single behaviour change associated with reduction in HIV-infection rates .”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0325/1224243368629.html
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
Condoms, HIV, and Pope Benedict
Leading HIV researcher Edward C. Green says criticism of the pope 'unfair.'

Interview by Timothy C. Morgan
Christianity Today,(Web-only),
March 20, 2009
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10138

Edward C. Green is one of the world's leading field researchers on the spread of HIV and public health interventions. He's the director of the Harvard AIDS Prevention Research Project, and is a leading advocate for evidence-based interventions. He has been sharply criticized by some public health experts for supporting sexual partner reduction programs and for endorsing the so-called ABC method ("Abstain, Be faithful, or use a Condom") for fighting the transmission of HIV. After Pope Benedict's comments earlier this week, Green agreed to answer Christianity Today deputy managing editor Tim Morgan's questions by e-mail.

Is Pope Benedict being criticized unfairly for his comments about HIV and condoms?

This is hard for a liberal like me to admit, but yes, it's unfair because in fact, the best evidence we have supports his comments - at least his major comments, the ones I have seen.

What does the evidence show about the effectiveness of condom-use strategies in reducing HIV infection rates among large-scale populations?

It will be easiest if we confine our discussion to Africa, because that's where the pope is, and that is what he was talking about. There's no evidence at all that condoms have worked as a public health intervention intended to reduce HIV infections at the "level of population." This is a bit difficult to understand. It may well make sense for an individual to use condoms every time, or as often as possible, and he may well decrease his chances of catching HIV. But we are talking about programs, large efforts that either work or fail at the level of countries, or, as we say in public health, the level of population. Major articles published in Science, The Lancet, British Medical Journal, and even Studies in Family Planning have reported this finding since 2004. I first wrote about putting emphasis on fidelity instead of condoms in Africa in 1988.

Is there any country worldwide (Brazil or Thailand, for example) that has emphasized condoms where a reduction in HIV infections has been verified and sustained?

In countries where HIV is largely concentrated among prostitutes and their clients, such as Thailand and Cambodia, there seems to have been success in promoting the so-called 100 percent condom policy in brothels. Most analysts credit the decline of HIV infection rates there to this policy and its implementation (of course, they were saying that about Uganda as well), but I agree that this probably has been the major factor explaining prevalence decline in those two countries. However, condom use is not especially high for prostitutes and their clients who are not based in brothels. And another factor in both countries is surely that there was a significant decline in the proportion of men going to prostitutes of any sort, and there was even a big decline in the proportion of men having extramarital sex in the years before we first saw infections decrease in Thailand.

Is there any country in Africa with a high HIV infection rate that has implemented new programs and seen infection rates fall? If so, what strategies are being followed?

I'm glad you asked this. We are seeing HIV decline in eight or nine African countries. In every case, there's been a decrease in the proportion of men and women reporting multiple sexual partners. Ironically, in the first country where we saw this, Uganda, HIV prevalence decline stopped in about 2004, and infection rates appear to be rising again. This appears to be in part because emphasis on interventions that promote monogamy and fidelity has weakened significantly, and earlier behavior changes have eroded. There has been a steady increase in the very behavior that once accounted for rates declining - namely, having multiple and concurrent sex partners. There is a widespread belief that somehow Uganda had fewer condoms. In fact, foreign donors have persuaded Uganda to put even more emphasis on condoms.

The rest of the article is located at: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/marchweb-only/111-53.0.html
 

logician

Well-Known Member
"have shown a consistent association between greater availability and use of condoms and higher HIV infection rates.
"

This is a blatantly misleading statistics, implying somehow that using condoms makes sex "more ' dangerous. The fact is people will have sex, and condom use greatly reduces the chances of getting HIV.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
"have shown a consistent association between greater availability and use of condoms and higher HIV infection rates.
"

This is a blatantly misleading statistics, implying somehow that using condoms makes sex "more ' dangerous. The fact is people will have sex, and condom use greatly reduces the chances of getting HIV.

You should write to Dr Edward C. Green and teach him how to collect and interpret data, I am sure that he will be interested in your opinion :sarcastic:D
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
You should write to Dr Edward C. Green and teach him how to collect and interpret data, I am sure that he will be interested in your opinion :sarcastic:D

As Dr Green bases his writings and findings on his own conservative Christian beliefs, I am sure he would have no interest at all in opposing opinions.

Yes, a little research shows his bias towards abstinence.

The Hope Factor: Engaging the Church in the HIV/AIDS Crisis By Dr EC Green
Calling on the religious community. Faith-based initiatives can help combat the HIV / AIDS pandemic. By Dr EC Green

However Dr Green is also an active supporter of the ABC program in Uganda.
A-Abstinence, B-Be Faithful, C-Use a Condom.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
"have shown a consistent association between greater availability and use of condoms and higher HIV infection rates.
"

This is a blatantly misleading statistics, implying somehow that using condoms makes sex "more ' dangerous. The fact is people will have sex, and condom use greatly reduces the chances of getting HIV.
In fact, I think it's probably the opposite occuring: the higher the HIV infection rate where you are, the more likely it is that availability of condoms will increase as various programs are created to address the problem.

There's also a consistent association between greater numbers of Red Cross personnel and deaths from natural disasters, but this doesn't mean that the Red Cross causes earthquakes or floods.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
In fact, I think it's probably the opposite occuring: the higher the HIV infection rate where you are, the more likely it is that availability of condoms will increase as various programs are created to address the problem.

There's also a consistent association between greater numbers of Red Cross personnel and deaths from natural disasters, but this doesn't mean that the Red Cross causes earthquakes or floods.

This makes sense ..but only a smart person might figure it out! LOL!!

Its funny ..again my 19 year old son..to use an analogy...

I just started a thread on the possible harmful affects of humans drinking cows milk....Its supposed to help "prevent" osteoporosis..right?(from the calcium)..

I told my son..they have found a higher instance of bone disease in areas where more cows milk and dairy are consumed..So that maybe ..ironincially the milk has lots of calcium..but because of its "structure" and the other elements or factors in milk actually help add to the problem of weak and brittle bones...

He said..or maybe..in those areas there was already a higher instance of bone problems..so they started eating more dairy and drinking more milk to try and help fight the existing problem..

I was like..you know what..good thinking son!...That very well could be..and I hadnt thought of that...

Love

Dallas
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
As Dr Green bases his writings and findings on his own conservative Christian beliefs, I am sure he would have no interest at all in opposing opinions.

Tumbleweed,

Would you offer a summary of the works of Dr. Green which you have mentioned (e.g. principally his methodology). I myself have not read them. Anything that you could point out from his material which indicates he is fudging or ignoring data for the sake of his Christian bias would shed some further light on your comments. Thanks.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Tumbleweed,

Would you offer a summary of the works of Dr. Green which you have mentioned (e.g. principally his methodology). I myself have not read them. Anything that you could point out from his material which indicates he is fudging or ignoring data for the sake of his Christian bias would shed some further light on your comments. Thanks.

SOLD!

He does not address the fact that condoms, when rolled onto a penis before intercourse, reduce the risk of infection or pregnancy by 90 %. He does not address whether or not distributed condoms are being rolled onto penises in Africa at all. He's measuring condoms distributed, not condoms used.

He might as well throw a billion condoms into the bottom of the sea. His results would be the same. "I've 'distributed' a billion condoms and yet the epidemic still spreads! Therefore condoms make the problem worse!" he could say. And unthinking fools would believe him because they can put his name and 'Harvard' in the same sentence.

FYI, in logic, this is called "appeal to authority". His argument is obviously totally retarded, but ordinary people like yourself are afraid to say so because he is a Big Thinking Man.

You can be a thinking man. You don't need a degree, or a pulpit, or a blog, or a network of religious publications who will buy your musings to advance their own agendas. You just need a method: Logic. Green does not have it.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
alceste said:
FYI, in logic, this is called "appeal to authority". His argument is obviously totally retarded, but ordinary people like yourself are afraid to say so because he is a Big Thinking Man.

You can be a thinking man. You don't need a degree, or a pulpit, or a blog, or a network of religious publications who will buy your musings to advance their own agendas. You just need a method: Logic. Green does not have it.

I think logic allied with common sense is better than just logic alone.
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
FYI, in logic, this is called "appeal to authority". His argument is obviously totally retarded, but ordinary people like yourself are afraid to say so because he is a Big Thinking Man.

Alceste,

Had you paid attention to my initial remarks, you might have seen that I have not found Dr. Green's research 'decesive' for my still yet developing opinion on this matter. I do not take my opinions without critical application from the holy father, Dr. Green or a liberal consensus.

Do I think the Papacy has valuable things to say regarding the problem of condoms and the idea of human sexuality that they promote? Yes, I genuinely do. Yet, as a Catholic who holds Paul VI's Humane Vitae in high regard, I am not convinced that condoms are not part of the solution here [though by no means the meta-solution or the primary focus of our efforts].

I find that it is not only Christians who are guilty of simple appeals to authority. All sorts of people are, from the Left and the Right. I do not think simply pointing out that Green is a Christian is enough to discredit what he is saying. That is a fallicious appeal of another kind. Thus, I asked to see some details about Green's methodology and supposed errors.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Alceste,

Had you paid attention to my initial remarks, you might have seen that I have not found Dr. Green's research 'decesive' for my still yet developing opinion on this matter. I do not take my opinions without critical application from the holy father, Dr. Green or a liberal consensus.

Do I think the Papacy has valuable things to say regarding the problem of condoms and the idea of human sexuality that they promote? Yes, I genuinely do. Yet, as a Catholic who holds Paul VI's Humane Vitae in high regard, I am not convinced that condoms are not part of the solution here [though by no means the meta-solution or the primary focus of our efforts].

I find that it is not only Christians who are guilty of simple appeals to authority. All sorts of people are, from the Left and the Right. I do not think simply pointing out that Green is a Christian is enough to discredit what he is saying. That is a fallicious appeal of another kind. Thus, I asked to see some details about Green's methodology and supposed errors.

Fair point, and I didn't mean to imply that only Christians use logical fallacies. Everybody uses them. I only meant to point out that this happens to be a very clear case of a common one.

Plus, is Green a Christian? I didn't claim he was, although maybe somebody else did. To be honest, I did a search to find out if he is Catholic out of pure curiosity, but I gave up. I often give up on anything I can't find in two minutes.

Nevertheless, whether or not he happens to be religious is irrelevant to my observation his argument is stupid.
 
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