Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV

[Alceste]

Fair enough, the church shouldn't lie about condoms.

But why would it affect anyone outside the church? I still don't understand that.

Buttons, the reason these teachings ("condoms are nets that let sperm and HIV through, etc") infect minds outside the church is that they are not presented as Catholic opinions, but as facts. The religious right sometimes even goes out of their way to conceal the religious origins of false statements of fact regarding condoms. Abstinence education in the US is one example.

When one person states that it is a proven fact that condoms are permeable to HIV, or intentionally laced with HIV, or hasten the spread of HIV, you don't need to be religious to believe it. Maybe a bit lacking in critical thinking skills, but not religious. False statements of fact - particularly in an environment with a high rate of illiteracy, which requires people to rely on "word-of-mouth" to understand the world - go straight into the vein of an undereducated population and emerge as "common knowledge".

You can't say that about things like "extramarital sex is a sin". When people hear things like this they recognize it as an opinion, not a fact. People feel free to disagree with opinions, but not facts. (People who are not apologists for a lying pope, that is.)

 

[Smoke]

Saying I'm cool with letting Catholics die I feel that's rather harsh and not the point of what I'm trying to say.

Of course I don't think you're really cool with that. It was my way of pointing out that even if nobody but Catholics listened to him, it would still be a big deal.

 

[Father Heathen]

I think in the eyes of the Catholic Church, the "immorality" of contraception are far worse than people dying of AIDS. They'd rather see these people die than partake in what they see as "sin".
I don't see way anyone even considers the Pope or the catholic church to be relevant in the modern world. Are they mesmerized by that ridicilous hat?

 

[Panda]

I don't see way anyone even considers the Pope or the catholic church to be relevant in the modern world. Are they mesmerized by that ridicilous hat?

I think that's the point. The church is becoming increasing irrelevant and that scares the hell out of them.

 

[Father Heathen]

I think that's the point. The church is becoming increasing irrelevant and that scares the hell out of them.

I wonder how many genuinely yearn for the dark ages.

 

[Theocan]

Ridiculous

 

[Buttons*]

Buttons, the reason these teachings ("condoms are nets that let sperm and HIV through, etc") infect minds outside the church is that they are not presented as Catholic opinions, but as facts. The religious right sometimes even goes out of their way to conceal the religious origins of false statements of fact regarding condoms. Abstinence education in the US is one example.

When one person states that it is a proven fact that condoms are permeable to HIV, or intentionally laced with HIV, or hasten the spread of HIV, you don't need to be religious to believe it. Maybe a bit lacking in critical thinking skills, but not religious. False statements of fact - particularly in an environment with a high rate of illiteracy, which requires people to rely on "word-of-mouth" to understand the world - go straight into the vein of an undereducated population and emerge as "common knowledge".

You can't say that about things like "extramarital sex is a sin". When people hear things like this they recognize it as an opinion, not a fact. People feel free to disagree with opinions, but not facts. (People who are not apologists for a lying pope, that is.)

Fair enough. I still feel that it should be judged by intent, and that the Catholic church doesn't actually want more people to get AIDS. If we're going to get mad at the Pope, we should probably find a way to correct the things he's done. Simply calling him evil isn't helping the people with HIV either.

 

[jt233]

My thoughts on this is that all of the above likely are in play here. But one of the reasons why that is, is that Africa has recently become a big Roman Catholic domain. I have heard of priests in churches teaching their congregation the evils of condoms, how they don't prevent Aids etc. instead of saying something about if you aren't going to be abstinent, then please protect yourself and others. It is wrong imo to not educate about Aids or spread erroneous propaganda in order to have your choice of belief upheld. It is not in touch with reality. If the threat of hell doesn't promote abstinence, how do they think they can promote abstinence by a threat of Aids? It doesn't seem very loving to allow their people to be uneducated and unprotected imo.

Here is a website that gives you some idea of what is being used as "education" about HIV



I agree with you 100% according to catholics and christians god knew you were going to have that sex before you were born and he probably knew you would have aids. Don't you think that if god were loving he wouldn't want the other person to recieve the aids.

 

[Alceste]

Fair enough. I still feel that it should be judged by intent, and that the Catholic church doesn't actually want more people to get AIDS. If we're going to get mad at the Pope, we should probably find a way to correct the things he's done. Simply calling him evil isn't helping the people with HIV either.

I could correct the things he's done if I was the pope. But I' don't have a penis, so I'm permanently excluded from attaining power or influence in the Catholic church.

 

[Smoke]

I still feel that it should be judged by intent

You know what the road to hell is paved with.

 

[The Great Architect]

This annoys me! It's much harder to address the issue, with attitudes like this one. Abstinence only is impractical.

 

[emiliano]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraViolet
When the Catholic church tells it's members a thing is punishable by eternal hellfire... :sarcastic
the responsibility for the consequences of such a claim rest squarely on their shoulders.

If you tell someone that using a condom -- or any birthcontrol-- is a sin punishable by eternal hell fire....
you have planted a DEEP seed of superstition in that person.
Weather it's a married catholic woman/couple having more babies than they can handle or afford,
or a Catholic caught up in a moment of passion...
if the condom/birthcontrol is MISSING BECAUSE of the RC'S psycological
indoctrination ... and there is a child or a disease... I hold the church LARGELY responsible.

People are funny. In a moment of passion they will engage in sex...
but feeling like they are adding sin unto sin...
(or even out of the public shame of purchasing one)
they will reject the condom.
As if it will somehow keep them in better standing with god.
Live by shame & superstition.... Die by shame & superstition.

meh.

The straw man of contraception raises it ugly head yet again, there must be something wrong in your understanding of the issue, this is a directive address to HIV infected individual thinking of remain sexually active even after they find out that they have the virus, and in case you don't get it yet, abstinence is a contraception strategy. This is so typical: "Catholic caught up in a moment of passion...
if the condom/birthcontrol is MISSING BECAUSE of the RC'S psycological
indoctrination ... and there is a child or a disease... I hold the church LARGELY responsible" The Church also teaches and counsels avoidance the two combined solves the problems and really people should start taking responsibility for their actions. Virtues do keep us in good standing with God, we have no desire to loose our communion with God for a nooky that nobody knows where and with whom it been. When selecting a partner people are selective and want to find some one that they can trust in the department of chastity, if somebody tell you that they have a STD, surely you can abstain.

 

[emiliano]

I think the Pope's own abstinence means he has no real idea of real life,he has never had a relationship sexual or otherwise,he does'nt experience life as the average Joe does.
As for lust,well what a terrible Human thing to feel,lust should be banned and everyone should be complete miserable sexually repressed bores.

This is weird, consider that to be a minister of a faith requires virtues some major ones are: self sacrifice and love, a kind of love that is pure, love that seek to give rather than take, an agape love, if a man decides to renounce to the enslavement of the flesh he shows a special kind of love, he does it for the love of others, he really love his neighbour as he was commanded, and also loves God above all else. How is this for the man that you slander, is he good? Does he love? Does he lives a boring life? Surely you don't mount just anything. Do you?

 

[challupa]

My thoughts on this is that all of the above likely are in play here. But one of the reasons why that is, is that Africa has recently become a big Roman Catholic domain. I have heard of priests in churches teaching their congregation the evils of condoms, how they don't prevent Aids etc. instead of saying something about if you aren't going to be abstinent, then please protect yourself and others. It is wrong imo to not educate about Aids or spread erroneous propaganda in order to have your choice of belief upheld. It is not in touch with reality. If the threat of hell doesn't promote abstinence, how do they think they can promote abstinence by a threat of Aids? It doesn't seem very loving to allow their people to be uneducated and unprotected imo.

Here is a website that gives you some idea of what is being used as "education" about HIV



I agree with you 100% according to catholics and christians god knew you were going to have that sex before you were born and he probably knew you would have aids. Don't you think that if god were loving he wouldn't want the other person to recieve the aids.

I'm pretty darned sure there is plenty of things we haven't got right about our beliefs of what God wants. When you look at all the different beliefs, God seems like a pretty confused and petty diety. That he condones suffering makes me shake my head.

 

[Alceste]

This is weird, consider that to be a minister of a faith requires virtues some major ones are: self sacrifice and love, a kind of love that is pure, love that seek to give rather than take, an agape love, if a man decides to renounce to the enslavement of the flesh he shows a special kind of love, he does it for the love of others, he really love his neighbour as he was commanded, and also loves God above all else. How is this for the man that you slander, is he good? Does he love? Does he lives a boring life? Surely you don't mount just anything. Do you?

Compensation payouts

• January 15, 2007 Diocese of Charleston Bishop Robert J. Baker agreed to pay $12 million to settle numerous cases concerning abuse by priests.[88]

• In December 2006 the Archdiocese of Los Angeles (its archbishop was Roger Cardinal Mahony) agreed to a payout of $60 million to settle 45 of the over 500 pending cases concerning abuse by priests.[89] In July 2007 the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles agreed to pay a $660 million settlement to hundreds of people who claimed to have been abused by clergy. [90]

• In September 2003 the Archdiocese of Boston agreed to pay out $85 million to 552 victims.[91]

• In 1997 the Diocese of Dallas negotiated a $31 million settlement with victims.[92]

• In June 2003 the Archdiocese of Louisville made a $25.7 million settlement involving 240 victims of sexual abuse.[93]

• On January 3, 2005 Bishop Tod Brown of the Diocese of Orange apologized to 87 alleged victims of sexual abuse and announced a settlement of $100 million following two years of mediation.[94]

• In December 2006 the Diocese of Phoenix agreed to pay $100,000 to William Cesolini, who claimed he was sexually assaulted as a teenager by a priest.[95]

• In Canada the Christian Brothers have paid out approximately $35 million (Canadian) in compensation.[67]

• In May 1994 the Diocese of Lincoln (Nebraska) agreed to pay Rob Butler, FKA Adam Butler, $40,000 after he claimed he was abused weekly for two years.

"Special" kind of love indeed. In the light of the facts, your fan-boy attitude to "celibate" priests is faintly nauseating. When you drop your dollar into the collection plate, where do you think it goes?

 

[emiliano]

I think in the eyes of the Catholic Church, the "immorality" of contraception are far worse than people dying of AIDS. They'd rather see these people die than partake in what they see as "sin".
I don't see way anyone even considers the Pope or the catholic church to be relevant in the modern world. Are they mesmerized by that ridicilous hat?

Oh God! Abstinence is contraception, if you obey there is no infected baby, no infected mother, Would you have sex with a HIV infected person? The condoms givers have the same aims in mind, no babies, no infected other. If the pope is irrelevant, why on earth are the godless so interested in getting him to joint in their little campaign? By the way there is general consensus here that he carries a lot of weight, responsibility is the issue, if you are thinking in engaging on risky sexual relations. Don't expect the church to give you free condoms if you get infected don't spread your curse to others:shout

 

[emiliano]

"Special" kind of love indeed. In the light of the facts, your fan-boy attitude to "celibate" priests is faintly nauseating. When you drop your dollar into the collection plate, where do you think it goes?

Why is it that the Godless worries so much about what we do with our money? I just give it to the Church that does great works, I can assure you you that it does not go to the purchasing of condoms to be distribute so people keep themselves slaved to sin. And where do you think it goes? Hey! you are easily nauseated, are you pregnant by any chance?

 

[DallasApple]

I think in the eyes of the Catholic Church, the "immorality" of contraception are far worse than people dying of AIDS. They'd rather see these people die than partake in what they see as "sin".
I don't see way anyone even considers the Pope or the catholic church to be relevant in the modern world. Are they mesmerized by that ridicilous hat?

Not to derail but I have an analogy..My son told me about a situation I believe in Saudi Arabia..They have what is called the "religious police"..There was a school for all girls (of course)..the building caught on fire..The religious police arrived..and locked the girls in(from the outside) ..the fire and regular police argued to let the girls out..why are you doing this????..well the girls were not in full hijab they said..(they were not covered head to toe)..the girls burned to death.(I think there 14 dead and 50 injured).So God (I suppose) would have rather those girls died..than to have come out and survied in an "immodest" state of dress possibly "inciting" the men to lust. (specifically the rescue crew who would have to touch them)..

Now I will say..apparently the King had a problem with this...

Anyway..

Love

Dallas

 

[Alceste]

Why is it that the Godless worries so much about what we do with our money? I just give it to the Church that does great works, I can assure you you that it does not go to the purchasing of condoms to be distribute so people keep themselves slaved to sin. And where do you think it goes? Hey! you are easily nauseated, are you pregnant by any chance?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you didn't even read my post. I don't care what your church does with your money, but you should. A huge portion of it these days is going to a huge community of childhood victims of sexual abuse by clergy.

Most people find child-raping priests nauseating, but in light of your unrepentant bootlicking I am not surprised to discover you are apathetic about these abuses yourself.

 

[Father Heathen]

Not to derail but I have an analogy..My son told me about a situation I believe in Saudi Arabia..They have what is called the "religious police"..There was a school for all girls (of course)..the building caught on fire..The religious police arrived..and locked the girls in(from the outside) ..the fire and regular police argued to let the girls out..why are you doing this????..well the girls were not in full hijab they said..(they were not covered head to toe)..the girls burned to death.(I think there 14 dead and 50 injured).So God (I suppose) would have rather those girls died..than to have come out and survied in an "immodest" state of dress possibly "inciting" the men to lust. (specifically the rescue crew who would have to touch them)..

What a sad story, and what a disgusting culture. What's even more disgusting are the RFers who defend such things.