Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV

[linwood]

What for? You already think you have it right. Don't waste your time.

Victor,

You can continue to attack me and my "closed mindedness" but I`d much prefer you point out the predictors and indicators of my closed mindedness concerning this topic.

I of course won`t learn a thing being so closed minded and all but I`m sure anyone reading this thread will see me for what I really am if you`d just show them.

You could easily put a stop to my incessant propagandistic distortion of Catholic doctrine by this simple act.

 

[DallasApple]

I was born to a unwed mother back in the days that the church "took care" of those unwanted women. My mother was made to work in a laundry up until the day she gave birth to me. She was told she could not use her real name when with the other mothers. She was subjected to internal examinations in front of the other mothers that were waiting in line for their turn with the doctor. They were told during childbirth that their suffering was because of their sin and it would help purify them. They were also told by the nuns that it was their punishment for what they had done. They were told their children would never be seen again and to let them go. In my mother's case she cared for me for four days while she paid her maternity debt by working in the laundry. She came back one day and I was gone, no letting her say good bye, nothing. They told her I was adopted. That was a lie, I was in another area of the hospital. I realize why they would take me away, so it wouldn't be so hard for her to give me up, but the rest I felt was brutal. I found my birth mother several years ago and so I know a first hand story of how they were treated. Also, they were housed in a building across from the hospital where they worked. There was a special underground tunnel built for them to cross under to go to work because they shouldn't be seen in their "sinful" state.

((HUGS))))

To your mother..If she is living..

((((HUGS))))

To you...

Love

Dallas

 

[challupa]

Your mother was actually in a Magdalene Laundry?

challupa I`m so sorry.

They were indeed another piece of evidence for the doctrine of suffering.

I sincerely thank you for your post.

I`m terribly sorry your mother had to endure such a thing.

Thank you Linwood. I wish she hadn't had that happen too. She carried that guilt for many years. Still does I think although my finding her has helped her resolve many issues.

 

[challupa]

((HUGS))))

To your mother..If she is living..

((((HUGS))))

To you...

Love

Dallas

Thanks Dallas. Yes she is still living and still quite feisty LOL. However, she has her issues. When she told me her story of that time after we met, it was so sad. I didn't know whether to cry for what she had to go through or get angry at such insensitivity.

 

[DallasApple]

Thanks Dallas. Yes she is still living and still quite feisty LOL. However, she has her issues. When she told me her story of that time after we met, it was so sad. I didn't know whether to cry for what she had to go through or get angry at such insensitivity.

Well..your mother is an angel..IMHO..And she delivered one as well.

And the "insensitivity' carries..I was the "unwed" mother at 14 and we werent Catholic.But my mother was raised "Baptist"..I didnt get forced to "work"..But my mother looked at me like I was a "virus"..for what I had done..She had no "hard feelings" towards the baby I carried..he was "innocent" and even suggested she adopt him.At least I didnt get forced into anything with my son..Like to give him away..(which her sister was forced to in the 50's and it haunted my mother).

Anyway..its not just the "Catholics"..that act like backwards baboons..

Love

Dallas

 

[Quiddity]

Victor,

You can continue to attack me and my "closed mindedness" but I`d much prefer you point out the predictors and indicators of my closed mindedness concerning this topic.

I of course won`t learn a thing being so closed minded and all but I`m sure anyone reading this thread will see me for what I really am if you`d just show them.

You could easily put a stop to my incessant propagandistic distortion of Catholic doctrine by this simple act.

I'm having a conversation with you, not the masses. No need to play victim here. I really was looking forward to having a good conversation with you Linwood. Hoping that the past was the past and perhaps the tune would change a bit. I'm still hopeful.

 

[Quiddity]

In the same way that people are the same as they were before the car, people are the same as they were before the condom.

I really don't think cars coming into existance is in anyway similar to how people view sexuality.

 

[linwood]

I'm having a conversation with you, not the masses.

History tells me otherwise.

Hoping that the past was the past and perhaps the tune would change a bit. I'm still hopeful.

It would seem you set the tone of this tune with post #251

 

[Quiddity]

History tells me otherwise.

It would seem you set the tone of this tune with post #251

That was a response to your post. I'm not sure what I said in that post that got you going.... ....I really don't.

At any rate, I won't hold it against you that you hate my Church and what it stands for......I used to, but not anymore.

 

[linwood]

Does anyone want to further the discussion on the Catholic doctrine of suffering and how it may or may not relate to the recent statements by the Church and it`s representatives?

It seems I`m a thread killer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I really don't think cars coming into existance is in anyway similar to how people view sexuality.

No, they're not terribly similar. The car has had a much greater and profound effect on society than contraception ever could. It's drastically changed how we work, how we live, how we relate to each other, what we're capable of for good or ill, the shape of our cities and towns, and on and on and on.

Look at it this way. Imagine a typical North American; which do you think would have a greater effect on his or her life: taking away the person's contraception or taking away the person's car?

 

[Quiddity]

No, they're not terribly similar. The car has had a much greater and profound effect on society than contraception ever could. It's drastically changed how we work, how we live, how we relate to each other, what we're capable of for good or ill, the shape of our cities and towns, and on and on and on.

Look at it this way. Imagine a typical North American; which do you think would have a greater effect on his or her life: taking away the person's contraception or taking away the person's car?

Ok...suppose I agree here; the underlying difference (perhaps not?) is that irregardless of how much more impact the car has made, I place far more value on sexuality then how I get to starbucks. Horse? Bike? or...Car?....

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

One of the very reasons I am Catholic is because of its theology of suffering- I do not believe what you are saying Linwood is accurate. The Church does not desire to cause suffering- but it believes Christ has allocated the sufferings inherent in a fallen world a redemptive capacity.

Suffering, for its own sake, is useless or even evil. But faith in Christ means that the sufferings that we are bound to endure can unite us to Him who, through suffering, already united Himself to us.

The Catholic theology of suffering is, at the same time, a theology of hope. It means God has descended into the worst aspects of being human so that the human being will be redeemed from the ground up, saved in his totality.

In this there is not, in any way, an imperative to cause suffering. It only opens up for us a way of hope when it does come our way.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Penguin,

Your point regarding transportation is well taken. In the very idea of natural law there is indeed a tension between using our God-given creative powers and the notion that nature has moral imperatives. Is the only consistent conclusion that the project of civilization is itself artificial, and therefore contra natura? Is the other option that man is morally free to order his affairs and deeds however he would like? (an option which I think a more ecologically aware world is coming to reject).

I think the Catholic position, still in the centuries long process of being realized, is that man's creative powers are intrinsic to him, yet what he creates should be patterned on the rhythms and inner logic of nature itself if he is not to reap destruction. This is why I think that green projects and ideas of sustainability are well served by Catholic moral theology- few Catholics, however, have yet realized this. Natural law means that, in the metaphysics of nature itself, lies blue-prints along which our own creative works should develop. Our freedom is neither extinguished by the full weight of nature, nor is it fulfilled in willful contradiction of it.

 

[challupa]

Well..your mother is an angel..IMHO..And she delivered one as well.

And the "insensitivity' carries..I was the "unwed" mother at 14 and we werent Catholic.But my mother was raised "Baptist"..I didnt get forced to "work"..But my mother looked at me like I was a "virus"..for what I had done..She had no "hard feelings" towards the baby I carried..he was "innocent" and even suggested she adopt him.At least I didnt get forced into anything with my son..Like to give him away..(which her sister was forced to in the 50's and it haunted my mother).

Anyway..its not just the "Catholics"..that act like backwards baboons..

Love

Dallas

You're right Dallas, it's not just Catholics. It seems to be the "one god" religions that have such a rigid stance on sexuality. I am sorry you had to go through that. It is hard enough to have your first child never mind not having support too. Hugs to you too and thanks for sharing.

 

[logician]

You're right Dallas, it's not just Catholics. It seems to be the "one god" religions that have such a rigid stance on sexuality. I am sorry you had to go through that. It is hard enough to have your first child never mind not having support too. Hugs to you too and thanks for sharing.

This includes most of the protestant denominations of the U.S. particularly the Southern Baptists, all of which have trended towards fundamentalism in the last few decades.

 

[challupa]

This includes most of the protestant denominations of the U.S. particularly the Southern Baptists, all of which have trended towards fundamentalism in the last few decades.

Yes that is true. In uncertain times we see a trend towards religions that offer certainty and ones that were once more tolerant or liberal turn back to their literal interpretations hoping to appease their god.

 

[logician]

Yes that is true. In uncertain times we see a trend towards religions that offer certainty and ones that were once more tolerant or liberal turn back to their literal interpretations hoping to appease their god.

Most "liberal" denominations like the Presbyterians are having a very hard time surviving. Religion is in a state of upheaval, and the backlash is a very fundamentalist one. Churches today are nothing like the ones I went to when I was a kid.

 

[challupa]

Most "liberal" denominations like the Presbyterians are having a very hard time surviving. Religion is in a state of upheaval, and the backlash is a very fundamentalist one. Churches today are nothing like the ones I went to when I was a kid.

I would have to agree. I am reading a book at the moment called "With or without God : Why the way we live is more important than what we believe" by Gretta Vosper. She is a United Church minister that is making waves in the traditional ways churches worship. She is an interesting read and I agree with most of what she has said so far.

One real interesting thing she said was how the clergy that are trying to change the story from the pulpit to be more in line with what biblical scholars have been finding are finding a great reluctance from their members. She actually talks about a time that she deviated from traditional scriptural interpretation by saying "I spoke of the delight we might have in creating our own images, ones that rang true for each of us and that would honour our struggle to live with integrity in this life time". She was referring to the John passage of my mansion has many rooms and afterlife. She then says a member of her congregation stood up and "asked me to pray that I might come to a better understanding of heaven as described in the Bible, the word of God."

So in some cases it isn't the clergy that won't change the message to a kinder more inclusive one, but their members who won't allow for deviation from the old, traditional exclusive ones.

 

[Buttons*]

At this point, and in my current mood, I don't have any problem with Catholics not using condoms and therefore having a higher rate of HIV infection amongst themselves.

However, the pope and his minions are making false statements of fact.I know the line is blurry here for religious believers, but condoms are 90 % effective against the transmission of HIV. That is a scientific fact. "Condoms worsen the problem" (and "condoms are laced with HIV") is in direct contradiction to the facts.

The fact is, it's like pulling teeth to get some men to wear a condom even without spreading lies against its effectiveness against pregnancy and disease. The ONLY reason people wear them is fear of disease and pregnancy and an awareness of the fact of their effectiveness in preventing both. Sure, all of us lustful infidels know 90 % is not 100 %, and abstinence would go the whole hog, but for people who don't subscribe to this "sex outside marriage offends god" nonsense, the greatly reduced risk of mishaps offered by condoms is outweighed by the pleasure of responsible, safer sex. When the church spreads MISINFORMATION about the effectiveness of condoms, and the misinformation inevitably spreads outside the "flock" into the secular world, they are attacking the only argument for condom use among non-believers.

If the church would openly admit the FACT that condoms are 90 % effective against HIV transmission, then continue to try to persuade their believers to be faithful, as they have been trying and failing to do for about 2000 years (and which is a laugh, considering the behavior of most of the Catholics I know), I don't care. Just quit with the misinformation.

Fair enough, the church shouldn't lie about condoms.

But why would it affect anyone outside the church? I still don't understand that.