Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV

[DallasApple]

All I know..(which is not much)..we need to help stop the spread of HIV ...And I dont think its telling people to just dont have sex for the rest of their lives.

You know Paul?(in the Bible) recommended not to get "married" unless you burn go ahead..But he thought the world was going to end in his natural life time..(say in the next 50 years)..I dont think he expected that 2,000 years later people would still be burning.His solution was for the times..not for the next 2,000 years..He couldnt even concieve of that..Had everyone been a Christian and lived like him? Humans would have died out a long time ago..

Love

Dallas

 

[Alceste]

You win...take care.

Not me: the facts win. You win too, any time you become acquainted with them. In this instance, I was more than happy to point you in the right direction.

 

[linwood]

Well since the gloves seem to have come off I`ll press this issue of motive for the RCC to actually intend to increase the spread of HIV/AIDs.

The Redemptive Role of Suffering
Christ desires for us to participate in his Passion, and thus suffering within the Body of Christ has a redemptive role. Because baptized Christians are part of the mystical Body of Christ, Jesus Christ the head of the body asks its members to participate not only in his resurrection and grace, but also in the suffering of his Passion. St. Paul firmly evinces this doctrine, "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church (Colossians 1:24)." He also says, "And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him (Romans 8:17)."
This does not mean that Christ’s redemption is lacking, or that his suffering was not enough for the redemption of the world. It only means that we are chosen to offer up our sufferings for the expiation of the temporal punishment deserved by our sin and the free participation in the life of Christ. Christ merits our redemption and forgives our sins but the punishment and penance for our selfish actions must still be. Paul’s letter to the Colossians notes that by offering our own sufferings for the body of Christ, we can make up for those members of the body of Christ whose sufferings are lacking. Thus the body of Christ, the Catholic Church, offers the collective suffering of its members for the expiation of temporal punishment and follows in the Passion and sufferings of the Head of the body of Christ, Jesus Christ.

Justification by Grace

Note Mother Theresa`s constant insistence that suffering makes her terminal patients more “like Christ”
Note also that in the quotes below she speaks specifically of AIDs patients.

(a) "The dying, the crippled, the mentally ill, the unwanted, the unloved -- they are Jesus in disguise. ... [through the] poor people I have an opportunity to be 24 hours a day with Jesus." [On another occasion, she again demonstrated her pantheistic religious philosophy: "Every AIDS victim is Jesus in a pitiful disguise; Jesus is in everyone.. ... [AIDS sufferers are] children of God [who] have been created for greater things" (1/13/86, Time).]
(b) "You must make them feel loved and wanted. They are Jesus for me."

"Mother" Teresa - General Teachings/Activities

Mother Teresa discovered that the strange alchemy of God's love, as it manifests in the world, requires the presence of suffering and that there is a need for those who, in worldly eyes, are less fortunate or less than perfect specimens of the human race. This need for suffering she personified in the suffering of Jesus - as the role model for suffering - and saw Christ (the universal Jesus) in all the dying, the diseased, the homeless and the chronically poor of the streets of India; and also in the spiritually impoverished and the mentally disturbed of the developed world. On the occasion of a visit of a Catholic Bishop to the Home of the Dying in Calcutta, she asked him if he would like to see Jesus. On receiving an answer in the affirmative she took him to a man lying on a pallet who had “clearly visible things crawling over his body.” As the Bishop stood there in a state of partial shock she knelt down and wrapped her arms around the man, holding him like a baby in her arms. “Here he is,” she said.

Mother Teresa

Catholic scriptural basis on the doctrine of suffering..

Phil. 1:29 - for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God's plan. Thus, Christ does not want our faith alone, but our faith in action which includes faith in suffering.

Rom. 8:17 - Paul says that we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. Paul is teaching that suffering must be embraced in order to obtain the glory that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus.

Rom. 5:2-3 - Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Scripture Catholic - SUFFERING

Has anyone ever wondered why you don`t often see a crucified Christ on the cross at most Protestant churches yet you`ll ever rarely see a cross without the body of Christ on it displayed in a Catholic church?

I believe this is because the empty crosses in most protestant doctrine symbolize the value of the resurrection and ascension of Christ while Catholic doctrine focuses on the suffering and sacrifice of Christ.

Pope John Paul II
''Down through the centuries and generation,'' the Pope writes, ''it has been seen that in suffering there is concealed a particular power that draws a person interiorly close to Christ, a special grace.'' 'Do Good by His Suffering'
The key to the value of suffering lies in the death and resurrection of Christ, the Pope says. While this ''does not abolish temporal suffering from human life, nor free from human suffering the whole historical dimension of human existence, it nevertheless throws a new light upon this dimension and upon every suffering: the light of salvation.''
Christ has led us into this kingdom through his suffering,'' the Pope says. ''And also through suffering those surrounded by the mystery of Christ's redemption become mature enough to enter this kingdom.''

POPE SAYS SUFFERING CAN MEAN SPIRITUAL GAIN - New York Times

Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict)

Anyone who has inwardly accepted suffering becomes more mature and more understanding of others, becomes more human. Anyone who has consistently avoided suffering does not understand other people; he becomes hard and selfish.

His way, quite to the contrary, lies in powerlessness and in suffering death, betrayed to the heathen, as he says, and brought by the heathen to the Cross. The disciples would have to learn that the kingdom of God comes into the world in that way, and in no other.

The Question of Suffering, the Response of the Cross | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger | From "God and the World" | Ignatius Insight

The "only" way the Kingdom of God comes into the world is through suffering.
there is no other way to be one with God.
You must suffer.

Can it be denied that suffering is an important part of entrance to heaven and “being like Christ” to the Catholic?

Is it really such a stretch to think perhaps suffering is intentionally increased by the RCC in order to get as many souls as possible into heaven?

Mother Theresa`s refusal to use any pain medication for her patients is only one small piece of evidence for this claim.
She intentionally wanted suffering in order for her patients to be “Christlike” and aid their entrance into heaven.

I have posted my evidence in support of this allegation.

Do not bother replying if you do not intend to directly confront the evidence here.

If the evidence isn`t enough I will post more, with no difficulty in finding it.

 

[Quiddity]

To a certain extent yes, but the same goes for contraception, IMO.

How does the same go for contraceptives?

 

[Alceste]

Well since the gloves seem to have come off I`ll press this issue of motive for the RCC to actually intend to increase the spread of HIV/AIDs.

Note Mother Theresa`s constant insistence that suffering makes her terminal patients more “like Christ”
Note also that in the quotes below she speaks specifically of AIDs patients.

Catholic scriptural basis on the doctrine of suffering..

Has anyone ever wondered why you don`t often see a crucified Christ on the cross at most Protestant churches yet you`ll ever rarely see a cross without the body of Christ on it displayed in a Catholic church?

I believe this is because the empty crosses in most protestant doctrine symbolize the value of the resurrection and ascension of Christ while Catholic doctrine focuses on the suffering and sacrifice of Christ.

The "only" way the Kingdom of God comes into the world is through suffering.
there is no other way to be one with God.
You must suffer.

Can it be denied that suffering is an important part of entrance to heaven and “being like Christ” to the Catholic?

Is it really such a stretch to think perhaps suffering is intentionally increased by the RCC in order to get as many souls as possible into heaven?

Mother Theresa`s refusal to use any pain medication for her patients is only one small piece of evidence for this claim.
She intentionally wanted suffering in order for her patients to be “Christlike” and aid their entrance into heaven.

I have posted my evidence in support of this allegation.

Do not bother replying if you do not intend to directly confront the evidence here.

If the evidence isn`t enough I will post more, with no difficulty in finding it.

That's a very good point, linwood, and one I hadn't considered. Just for kicks, here's a sketch I did of a Madonna icon in a Catholic church in Guatemala. The reason it struck me was the abject misery of it.

 

[Quiddity]

Well since the gloves seem to have come off I`ll press this issue of motive for the RCC to actually intend to increase the spread of HIV/AIDs.

Note Mother Theresa`s constant insistence that suffering makes her terminal patients more “like Christ”
Note also that in the quotes below she speaks specifically of AIDs patients.


Catholic scriptural basis on the doctrine of suffering..

Has anyone ever wondered why you don`t often see a crucified Christ on the cross at most Protestant churches yet you`ll ever rarely see a cross without the body of Christ on it displayed in a Catholic church?

I believe this is because the empty crosses in most protestant doctrine symbolize the value of the resurrection and ascension of Christ while Catholic doctrine focuses on the suffering and sacrifice of Christ.






The "only" way the Kingdom of God comes into the world is through suffering.
there is no other way to be one with God.
You must suffer.

Can it be denied that suffering is an important part of entrance to heaven and “being like Christ” to the Catholic?

Is it really such a stretch to think perhaps suffering is intentionally increased by the RCC in order to get as many souls as possible into heaven?

Mother Theresa`s refusal to use any pain medication for her patients is only one small piece of evidence for this claim.
She intentionally wanted suffering in order for her patients to be “Christlike” and aid their entrance into heaven.

I have posted my evidence in support of this allegation.

Do not bother replying if you do not intend to directly confront the evidence here.

If the evidence isn`t enough I will post more, with no difficulty in finding it.

Not really up to it ATM. Perhaps a one-on-one on our understanding of suffering would help clear things up if you're really interested. Mother Theresa took what we believed and took it too far IMO.

 

[DallasApple]

Christ wanted an end to suffering..He did it for us..

Its butt(just for Panda wink) backwards.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

The "only" way the Kingdom of God comes into the world is through suffering.
there is no other way to be one with God.
You must suffer.

You know what?? That actually works out..Because I dont know one single person that hasnt suffered in some way..

So we are ALL one with God!!!!

Love

Dallas

 

[Alceste]

Christ wanted an end to suffering..He did it for us..

Its butt(just for Panda wink) backwards.

Love

Dallas

I expect this is only one of many areas where protestants and catholics disagree.

 

[DallasApple]

That's a very good point, linwood, and one I hadn't considered. Just for kicks, here's a sketch I did of a Madonna icon in a Catholic church in Guatemala. The reason it struck me was the abject misery of it.

You are a talented artist..

Love

Dallas

 

[Alceste]

You are a talented artist..

Love

Dallas

Aw, shucks. :flirt: Thanks.

 

[linwood]

The sketch is well done.

There is a museum here, "The John & Mabel Ringling Museum of Art" which has a permanent treasure of medieval and Renaissance art mostly centered on Church doctrine/myths.(as most European art was then).

It is room after room of misery and suffering displayed on huge tapestries and wooden board.

The work is exceptional while the subject matter is most disturbing.

I hadn`t really considered the relationship between the subject matter there and the Catholic doctrine of suffering in any depth until you posted that icon.

I`m always too mesmerized by the individual paintings themselves I suppose

 

[linwood]

Not really up to it ATM. Perhaps a one-on-one on our understanding of suffering would help clear things up if you're really interested. Mother Theresa took what we believed and took it too far IMO.

No Victor, I`m not really interested in your interpretation of the Doctrine of Suffering.

I`m interested in the interpretations of those who run the Church and set the doctrine.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How does the same go for contraceptives?

In the same way that people are the same as they were before the car, people are the same as they were before the condom.

 

[DallasApple]

In the same way that people are the same as they were before the car, people are the same as they were before the condom.

NO ONE listens to me..

Condoms do NOT turn virgins into wild horny sex addicts..

The "lack of condoms" do not turn wild horny sex addicts into virgins!!!

HELLO>>>>

Can you hear me???

Its that simple!!

Love

Dallas

 

[challupa]

Well since the gloves seem to have come off I`ll press this issue of motive for the RCC to actually intend to increase the spread of HIV/AIDs.

Note Mother Theresa`s constant insistence that suffering makes her terminal patients more “like Christ”
Note also that in the quotes below she speaks specifically of AIDs patients.

Catholic scriptural basis on the doctrine of suffering..

Has anyone ever wondered why you don`t often see a crucified Christ on the cross at most Protestant churches yet you`ll ever rarely see a cross without the body of Christ on it displayed in a Catholic church?

I believe this is because the empty crosses in most protestant doctrine symbolize the value of the resurrection and ascension of Christ while Catholic doctrine focuses on the suffering and sacrifice of Christ.

The "only" way the Kingdom of God comes into the world is through suffering.there is no other way to be one with God.
You must suffer.

Can it be denied that suffering is an important part of entrance to heaven and “being like Christ” to the Catholic?

Is it really such a stretch to think perhaps suffering is intentionally increased by the RCC in order to get as many souls as possible into heaven?

Mother Theresa`s refusal to use any pain medication for her patients is only one small piece of evidence for this claim.
She intentionally wanted suffering in order for her patients to be “Christlike” and aid their entrance into heaven.

I have posted my evidence in support of this allegation.

Do not bother replying if you do not intend to directly confront the evidence here.

If the evidence isn`t enough I will post more, with no difficulty in finding it.

Well that does open up this discussion a bit more imo. Since I started this mess, I think it's only right that I take it a bit farther. Linwood, you raise very valid points and one that leaves me more than a little concerned is the suffering that is focused on by RCC. I had forgotten that and never linked it to the HIV problem. I know that Mother Theresa didn't believe in relieving suffering but she certainly is just one in a long list.

I was born to a unwed mother back in the days that the church "took care" of those unwanted women. My mother was made to work in a laundry up until the day she gave birth to me. She was told she could not use her real name when with the other mothers. She was subjected to internal examinations in front of the other mothers that were waiting in line for their turn with the doctor. They were told during childbirth that their suffering was because of their sin and it would help purify them. They were also told by the nuns that it was their punishment for what they had done. They were told their children would never be seen again and to let them go. In my mother's case she cared for me for four days while she paid her maternity debt by working in the laundry. She came back one day and I was gone, no letting her say good bye, nothing. They told her I was adopted. That was a lie, I was in another area of the hospital. I realize why they would take me away, so it wouldn't be so hard for her to give me up, but the rest I felt was brutal. I found my birth mother several years ago and so I know a first hand story of how they were treated. Also, they were housed in a building across from the hospital where they worked. There was a special underground tunnel built for them to cross under to go to work because they shouldn't be seen in their "sinful" state.

In all fairness, their being kept out of the public eye was probably a good thing in that day and age, the rest of it was all about sinning and therefore needing to suffer. Dying in childbirth was also said to be their punishment for sinning. Can you just imagine the high level of self esteem these women had when they left these places. While the church has done many things that are good and helpful, they have also caused a lot of suffering with their beliefs.

That is why if all beliefs are considered to be "dogma" as has been inferred in another post, then we must make very sure that our "dogma" is one of compassion and wisdom.

 

[Quiddity]

No Victor, I`m not really interested in your interpretation of the Doctrine of Suffering.

I`m interested in the interpretations of those who run the Church and set the doctrine.

What for? You already think you have it right. Don't waste your time.

 

[Quiddity]

In the same way that people are the same as they were before the car, people are the same as they were before the condom.

You don't think people have changed there view of sex? How it's expressed? What it means?

 

[linwood]

I was born to a unwed mother back in the days that the church "took care" of those unwanted women. My mother was made to work in a laundry up until the day she gave birth to me.

Your mother was actually in a Magdalene Laundry?

challupa I`m so sorry.

They were indeed another piece of evidence for the doctrine of suffering.

I sincerely thank you for your post.

I`m terribly sorry your mother had to endure such a thing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You don't think people have changed there view of sex? How it's expressed? What it means?

Of course it has, but no more than the car has changed their view of community or what it means... and condoms certainly don't affect a person's "personhood" or humanity.