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Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV

Alceste

Vagabond
But are they really spreading lies? The only way possible to not get HIV by sexual transmission is to not have sex.

Someone posted earlier mentioning that the Catholic church once said that condoms were laced with bad substances? If that's the case, then yes, they were lying, and that is wrong.

Just so we're clear here, and because Victor also asked for sources:

HIV can pass through "tiny holes" in condoms
Condoms and ARV drugs are intentionally laced with HIV

So, yeah, they really are spreading lies. Anyone who believes these lies, Catholic or not, risks losing their only incentive for condom use. The Catholic church is sitting on one shoulder when people are aroused, saying "don't use a condom - they're permeable to / laced with HIV" while the World Health Organisation is sitting on the other shoulder saying "research has shown repeatedly that condoms are impermeable to HIV". People have to select between two competing "facts". Who do you think they're going to listen to when most people are disinclined to use a condom to begin with? And which organisation is the proverbial "devil on the shoulder"? Is the devil not the prince of lies?
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
The Pope is just as shackled by his own religion as all previous Popes,to have the power to save a lot of misery and not use it is a crime IMHO,all he needs to say is its ok to use a Condom

That's where I disagree, the Pope is doing the right thing, he commands abstinence to his flock so he committed no crime, handing out a product that isn't 100% save in not actually a crime of physical harm, abstinences is 100% safe, you will not contract a STD and you will not infect another human being, the responsibility lays with the individual, and we should spare a thought for those shackled my the marketing agents selling sex.If you know anybody that has AIDS and continues sexually active and do not counsel abstinence, what do you called that?
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
When the Catholic church tells it's members a thing is punishable by eternal hellfire... :sarcastic
the responsibility for the consequences of such a claim rest squarely on their shoulders.
What are you trying to say? What thing are you referring to? A person that knows that is infected and keeps sexually active runs the risk of infecting some one, consider that condoms are not 100% safe, handing them our for free, what do you think of that? Can the Pope issue any other directive but abstinence?
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
So the parents tells their son to use a condom, as he grows up, and goes to church, the priest teaches that condom use is against Catholic doctrine. So he never carries one, or learns the proper use. And after all, he heard a bishop say the condoms were laced anyway. One night, in the heat of passion with a girl he just met, he catches HIV.
Yeah, sound doctrine indeed.

A Christian parent will not teach a son to fornicate before marriage, they teach then self-control, sleeping around has consequences and it can be fatal, so the best counsel is keep it in your pant, there will be a time for that, the laced condoms thing keeps popping up, do you have a verifiable source for this?
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
That's where I disagree, the Pope is doing the right thing, he commands abstinence to his flock so he committed no crime, handing out a product that isn't 100% save in not actually a crime of physical harm, abstinences is 100% safe, you will not contract a STD and you will not infect another human being, the responsibility lays with the individual, and we should spare a thought for those shackled my the marketing agents selling sex.If you know anybody that has AIDS and continues sexually active and do not counsel abstinence, what do you called that?

Ask yourself 2 simple questions,are people going to stop being sexually active even if the Pope says abstain? 2 if they are going to continue to be sexually active regardless would a Condom reduce the risk of transmitting an STD?
Besides,just because someone has a packet of Condoms it does'nt make them more promiscuous
 
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emiliano

Well-Known Member
Ask yourself 2 simple questions,are people going to stop being sexually active even if the Pope says abstain? 2 if they are going to continue to be sexually active regardless would a Condom reduce the risk of transmitting an STD?
Besides,just because someone has a packet of Condoms it does'nt make them more promiscuous
My answer to question one is: Some will some won't, question for you, if they tragically infect a their party, will they continue been Catholic? Will they be be saved? My answer to question two: Those that will remain active knowing their condition will no longer be Catholics or Christians, but their leaders would have given them the right spiritual advice and in addition to be spiritually dead they might soon be physically dead, and it would be their choice, Salvation is not shoved onto people's throat.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
A Christian parent will not teach a son to fornicate before marriage, they teach then self-control, sleeping around has consequences and it can be fatal, so the best counsel is keep it in your pant, there will be a time for that, the laced condoms thing keeps popping up, do you have a verifiable source for this?

teaching a child anything is ineffective when society is not stuck in the dark ages like pure christian teaching. Children will talk to their friends, their friends may not be educated as such. Then, the Christian child stands to lose because chances are they will not use a condom, but will still have sex to be like their friends. Unless you're going to keep your child in a cage, there is no hope but to educate them propoerly (this means from a realistic point of view, not a christian one). Safe sex is better than no sex because no sex is unrealistic in this world we live in.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
My answer to question one is: Some will some won't, question for you, if they tragically infect a their party, will they continue been Catholic? Will they be be saved?

Well i can't answer that because i don't believe in that eternal damnation thing,i do however believe in proven facts which in the case of Condoms is they are effective in preventing the transmission of STD's and unwanted pregnancies.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
teaching a child anything is ineffective when society is not stuck in the dark ages like pure christian teaching. Children will talk to their friends, their friends may not be educated as such. Then, the Christian child stands to lose because chances are they will not use a condom, but will still have sex to be like their friends. Unless you're going to keep your child in a cage, there is no hope but to educate them propoerly (this means from a realistic point of view, not a christian one). Safe sex is better than no sex because no sex is unrealistic in this world we live in.

Well we teach our children the best we can and know how, I managed to fight the good fight, by the time my daughters went to school, they had what it was need it, sex at an early age is greatly over rated, it is not a thing that they cannot resist, the majority of kids still prefer to listen to parents and the Church, the monkey see monkey do syndrome is been kept in control, the real issue is what to call proper education and you don't need a cage, just sound doctrines, ethic and morals. Abstinence takes care of the problems, if that fails then is time for repentance and penance, to own up to one's responsabilities.We have not given up on our children.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
My answer to question one is: Some will some won't, question for you, if they tragically infect a their party, will they continue been Catholic? Will they be be saved?

Well i can't answer that because i don't believe in that eternal damnation thing,i do however believe in proven facts which in the case of Condoms is they are effective in preventing the transmission of STD's and unwanted pregnancies.

And what is your opinion on the effectiveness of abstinence? Why do you expect the Pope to join in the marketing of sex? Why should he direct Christians to use condoms? You can use them and shoots blanks, maybe that will breed you guys out. Is that the purposed of given free condoms to infected people, to breed them out? I must say that is not a bad idea, I am sure that if the Pope get into the marketing campaign he will be equally criticized. Because you don't believe in the spiritual consequences of lust, you cannot understand his position.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
A Christian parent will not teach a son to fornicate before marriage, they teach then self-control, sleeping around has consequences and it can be fatal, so the best counsel is keep it in your pant, there will be a time for that, the laced condoms thing keeps popping up, do you have a verifiable source for this?
link---->BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Shock at archbishop condom claim

A parent who does not live in their own little world, be they Christian or not, would be aware of the dangers in the world and prepare their child for them. Teaching safe sex is not teaching sex before marriage.
Abstinence only education evaluations have shown that no evaluation demonstrated any impact on reducing teens' sexual behavior at follow-up, three to 17 months after the program ended (Arizona, California, Minnesota, Missouri, or Pennsylvania's LaSalle Program).
 

blackout

Violet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraViolet
When the Catholic church tells it's members a thing is punishable by eternal hellfire... :sarcastic
the responsibility for the consequences of such a claim rest squarely on their shoulders.


What are you trying to say? What thing are you referring to? A person that knows that is infected and keeps sexually active runs the risk of infecting some one, consider that condoms are not 100% safe, handing them our for free, what do you think of that? Can the Pope issue any other directive but abstinence?

If you tell someone that using a condom -- or any birthcontrol-- is a sin punishable by eternal hell fire....
you have planted a DEEP seed of superstition in that person.
Weather it's a married catholic woman/couple having more babies than they can handle or afford,
or a Catholic caught up in a moment of passion...
if the condom/birthcontrol is MISSING BECAUSE of the RC'S psycological
indoctrination ... and there is a child or a disease... I hold the church LARGELY responsible.

People are funny. In a moment of passion they will engage in sex...
but feeling like they are adding sin unto sin...
(or even out of the public shame of purchasing one)
they will reject the condom.
As if it will somehow keep them in better standing with god. :shrug:
Live by shame & superstition.... Die by shame & superstition.

meh.
 
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challupa

Well-Known Member
Africa is the second fastest growing RCC nation. See below for links.

Benedict needs to show that he 'gets' Africa | National Catholic Reporter

During the 20th century, the Catholic population in sub-Saharan Africa exploded from 1.9 million to 130 million, a staggering growth rate of 6,708 percent — a result driven by a combination of overall population growth, the breakdown of old tribal religions, and missionary success. Religious vocations are also booming. For example, Nigeria's Bigard Memorial Seminary, with an enrollment of over 1,100, is the largest Catholic seminary in the world, and more than 700 African-born priests are now estimated to be serving in American parishes. Yet despite this phenomenal harvest, there is no priest surplus in Africa, because Africans are being baptized even more rapidly than they're being ordained. (In the United States, the ratio of priests to lay Catholics is 1-to-1,300; in Africa, it's almost 1-to-5,000.)

It seems to me that with the amount of Catholics in Africa and the amount of HIV infected people in Africa, the numbers of Catholics are going to decrease due to HIV deaths. Then what? Are we going to see statistics that tell us what religion those who died of HIV were? I believe that would be an interesting statistic to have published.

Here is a link to the percentage of Africa infected with HIV

HIV and AIDS in Africa
HIV/AIDS in Africa - HIV/AIDS Crisis, Pictures, and Statistics

Yup abstinence education seems to be working real well!:(

Here is an interesting article by some catholic nuns and priests in Africa that are hoping the Pope changes his stance on condoms.
Living | In Africa, Catholic church faces challenges as priests have children, nuns encourage condoms | Seattle Times Newspaper
 

J Bryson

Well-Known Member
What's interesting is the number of Africans in seminary, including those who are now working internationally. They'll eventually move up in the church. I wonder if someone who grew up around this humanitarian crisis would have a slightly more nuanced approach to condoms if he were in a position of authority.....
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Penguin,

I think the article I posted is useful for this discussion, certainly while we have people calling Benedict an idiot, or worse still, nearly a murderer. While I agree that it alone does not vindicate the Church's teachings, its empirical findings are a reason to consider, in some respect, what the Pope is saying:

The Senior Harvard AIDS Prevention Researcher, Dr. Green is quoted:

he claims that “anyone who worked in family planning knew that if you needed to prevent a pregnancy, say the woman will die, you don’t recommend a condom.”
The accepted wisdom in the scientific community, explained Green, is that condoms lower the HIV infection rate, but after numerous studies, researchers have found the opposite to be true. “We just cannot find an association between more condom use and lower HIV reduction rates” in Africa.
Green asserts that promoting Western “liberal ideology” where, “most Africans are conservative when it comes to sexual behavior,” is quite offensive to them.
...Ugandan officials reacted and developed a program that fit their culture; their main message being “stick to one partner or love faithfully.”However, in 2004, Uganda’s AIDS infection rates began to increase once again, due to an influx of condoms and Western “advice”, Green recalled.
Green also noted that there is an ideology called “harm reduction” that is being pushed by many organizations trying to prevent AIDS. The ideology believes that “you can’t change the underlying behavior, that you can’t get people to be faithful, especially Africans,”
According to Green, the Catholic Church should continue to “do what it is already doing,” avoid “arguing about the diameter of viruses” and cite scientific evidence in connection with scripture and moral theology.
Harvard Researcher agrees with Pope on condoms in Africa

The comments that the Pope made which incited this uproar were thus:


"One cannot overcome the problem with the distribution of condoms. On the contrary, they increase the problem," the pope said.

Nor can the AIDS pandemic be confronted only with aid programs, he said.

What the church teaches, he said, is "humanization of sexuality" and sexual responsibility on the one hand, and a willingness to be present with those who are suffering, on the other hand.
While Green does indeed write that condoms have been effective in areas with high concentrations of, say, brothels, [the individual level] they are not so on the population level. But clearly the problem is above and beyond the sex-trade industry. Green seems to be saying that condoms are not, in any sense, a meta-solution and that, in fact, they run the risk of making the problem worse in the context of African values.

In many respects, the Pope's comments are supported by at least this one prestigious researcher.


Finally, are condoms really analogous to seat belts? Perhaps. But In the context of multiple sex partners, especially in a society in the grip of an epidemic, the driving one is doing is more analogous to street racing. In this case, the problem is not really tackled by building safer cars so that people can continue to be irresponsible with less harmful results.

This, to me, speaks to the Pope's words about 'humanizing' sexuality. Is the human sexual relationship to be given up to the cost/effective analysis of the technological and product oriented world?
 
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linwood

Well-Known Member
Jordan.

Your Harvard researcher is lying.

The accepted wisdom in the scientific community, explained Green, is that condoms lower the HIV infection rate, but after numerous studies, researchers have found the opposite to be true. “We just cannot find an association between more condom use and lower HIV reduction rates” in Africa.

I would like to see these "numerous" unnamed studies and how he manages to interpret them as such.
I myself can cite numerous studies from numerous independent sources that state condom use does indeed lower the infection rate.

I`m curious as to whether or not Dr, Green is simply another Catholic lying for God.

The one thing that hasn`t been brought up here is possible motive for the RCC to be promoting these lies.

Many here would like to think it`s simply ignorance.

I would like to remind people of the Catholic belief that suffering increases heavenly rewards.

The problem was her Roman Catholic belief that personal suffering helps to earn one's salvation. She thought suffering was good, and she didn't use pain relievers in her clinics. She had said that the suffering of the poor is something very beautiful and the world is being very much helped by the nobility of this example of misery and suffering. Many Catholic priests and nuns, to this day, wear hair undergarments, put stones in their shoes, flagellate themselves and otherwise try to merit heaven by suffering. Poverty and suffering are not simply endured, but are sought and even created. Just as she hoped to earn her way to heaven through her own deprivation and suffering, so "Mother" Teresa hoped to help her patients as well to reach heaven through the suffering she imposed upon them.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
And what is your opinion on the effectiveness of abstinence? Why do you expect the Pope to join in the marketing of sex? Why should he direct Christians to use condoms? You can use them and shoots blanks, maybe that will breed you guys out. Is that the purposed of given free condoms to infected people, to breed them out? I must say that is not a bad idea, I am sure that if the Pope get into the marketing campaign he will be equally criticized. Because you don't believe in the spiritual consequences of lust, you cannot understand his position.

I think the Pope's own abstinence means he has no real idea of real life,he has never had a relationship sexual or otherwise,he does'nt experience life as the average Joe does.
As for lust,well what a terrible Human thing to feel,lust should be banned and everyone should be complete miserable sexualy repressed bores.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Penguin,

I think the article I posted is useful for this discussion, certainly while we have people calling Benedict an idiot, or worse still, nearly a murderer. While I agree that it alone does not vindicate the Church's teachings, its empirical findings are a reason to consider, in some respect, what the Pope is saying:

The Senior Harvard AIDS Prevention Researcher, Dr. Green is quoted:

Harvard Researcher agrees with Pope on condoms in Africa
I've had a look at Dr. Green's writings. The general impression I get is that he's not necessarily opposed to all strategies involving condoms; he just thinks that condom distribution alone does a poor job of combatting the problem. He seems to have generally high praise for Uganda's "ABC" (i.e. Abstain, Be faithful or use a Condom) campaign.

While Green does indeed write that condoms have been effective in areas with high concentrations of, say, brothels, [the individual level] they are not so on the population level.
I think we need to clarify: he acknowledges that condoms are very effective when used consistently, but that they often tend not to be used consistently when distributed to populations. The proper response to this problem isn't necessarily to abandon condoms as a method of combatting the disease; I think it points just as strongly to integration of condoms into a larger strategy that both encourages other methods of prevention of HIV transmission and at the same time encourages greater consistency in condom use.

In many respects, the Pope's comments are supported by at least this one prestigious researcher.
And in many respects, the Pope's comments go against the published opinions of that researcher. From everything I've seen, it seems that Dr. Green acknowledges that condoms do have a place in a strategy to combat AIDS in Africa.

Finally, are condoms really analogous to seat belts? Perhaps. But In the context of multiple sex partners, especially in a society in the grip of an epidemic, the driving one is doing is more analogous to street racing. In this case, the problem is not really tackled by building safer cars so that people can continue to be irresponsible with less harmful results.
There's a few problems with your analogy:

- if a person engages in street racing, they will be safer with seatbelt than without.
- wearing a seatbelt doesn't induce a person to street race.

However, all that being said, I can't help thinking about a campaign run by my local police force called P.A.C.E.R. I can't remember exactly what the acronym stood for, but it was based around the idea of getting street racers to swtich to legal, sanctioned motorsport. The message wasn't "don't race at all", it was "if you're going to race, do it in a safe way."

This, to me, speaks to the Pope's words about 'humanizing' sexuality. Is the human sexual relationship to be given up to the cost/effective analysis of the technological and product oriented world?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I think that cost-effectiveness needs to be taken into account any time you're talking about aid just in terms of causing the greatest good with the finite resources you have, but I get the sense that's not what you're driving at.
 
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