Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV

[Buttons*]

The Church is responsible for the reasonable foreseeable consequences of their actions. Part of the reasonable foreseeable consequences of the position they've taken is that a number of people will fail to adhere to the Church's teaching on fidelity, but the Church's teachings (or simply lack of teaching on contraception and safer sex) will make it more likely that these people will practice safer sex when they do have sex.

I suppose that one can argue that this is counterbalanced by positive consequences in some other way, but it's still a part of the equation.

This is where we differ... I think it's the role of the parents to teach their children about life, risks, consequences, and ways to be safe. I think the Church is just doing it's job. Most people who are uneducated may say, "Oh, well the church said don't use a condom... so I'll **** anything that walks" - but the Church doesn't want that either.

I think it's up to the parents to teach their kids about condom use, and the Church can say whatever it wants so long as it's applicable to the teachings of the Bible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is where we differ... I think it's the role of the parents to teach their children about life, risks, consequences, and ways to be safe. I think the Church is just doing it's job.

But part of the Church's self-appointed role is to educate its flock. If you're assuming Church teaching on condoms and sexuality, I think you need to assume this as well.

Most people who are uneducated may say, "Oh, well the church said don't use a condom... so I'll **** anything that walks" - but the Church doesn't want that either.

I don't think that at all. I think several things are happening:

- the Church takes on the role of educator for many children and teenagers, but doesn't teach them about condoms (other than "they're bad", along with "having sex outside marriage is bad"). If people don't adhere to the Church's teachings on sex, they simply don't have the knowledge of safer sex practices to make good choices.

- some people probably do see fornication/adultery as one sin, and condom use as another sin, and therefore fornication/adultery while using a condom as even worse.

- the Church instills a culture where it's difficult or impossible either to obtain condoms at all or to get them without losing face in the community.

I think it's up to the parents to teach their kids about condom use, and the Church can say whatever it wants.

By the same token, can't others say whatever they want about the Church?

 

[tumbleweed41]

This is where we differ... I think it's the role of the parents to teach their children about life, risks, consequences, and ways to be safe. I think the Church is just doing it's job. Most people who are uneducated may say, "Oh, well the church said don't use a condom... so I'll **** anything that walks" - but the Church doesn't want that either.

I think it's up to the parents to teach their kids about condom use, and the Church can say whatever it wants so long as it's applicable to the teachings of the Bible.

So the parents tells their son to use a condom, as he grows up, and goes to church, the priest teaches that condom use is against Catholic doctrine. So he never carries one, or learns the proper use. And after all, he heard a bishop say the condoms were laced anyway. One night, in the heat of passion with a girl he just met, he catches HIV.
Yeah, sound doctrine indeed.

 

[Buttons*]

But part of the Church's self-appointed role is to educate its flock. If you're assuming Church teaching on condoms and sexuality, I think you need to assume this as well.

I see that as a role of parenting. *shrug* I don't think the church has a say on it, realistically. But I think it's ok that they do stick to their principles. They don't say "Don't have sex... but it's ok if you do." It would send the wrong message I feel.

- some people probably do see fornication/adultery as one sin, and condom use as another sin, and therefore fornication/adultery while using a condom as even worse.

... Really? I haven't heard that one. It would follow if this is true. I get your point

- the Church instills a culture where it's difficult or impossible either to obtain condoms at all or to get them without losing face in the community.

This point does make sense. But that's what the interwebs are for On a more serious note, that may be so. But how many people who are catholic only live with catholics, only go to school with catholics, and do nothing but be catholic all the time? I think now that the world is larger, and more people believe more things, and we have the internet, it's much easier for people to learn, educate themselves, and get everything they need. I don't know how much ignorance we can really blame the Church for.

By the same token, can't others say whatever they want about the Church?

Lol, they often do

 

[Buttons*]

So the parents tells their son to use a condom, as he grows up, and goes to church, the priest teaches that condom use is against Catholic doctrine. So he never carries one, or learns the proper use. And after all, he heard a bishop say the condoms were laced anyway. One night, in the heat of passion with a girl he just met, he catches HIV.
Yeah, sound doctrine indeed.

Can we blame the church for a heated night of passion? It seems like too much credit really. If the church also says "don't have sex until you're married" then they've already tried to warn this hypothetical person that consequences come when you engage in sexual acts.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Can we blame the church for a heated night of passion? It seems like too much credit really. If the church also says "don't have sex until you're married" then they've already tried to warn this hypothetical person that consequences come when you engage in sexual acts.

A good parent will teach his child that sex is best when with the one you are committed to, but will also teach about safe sex-just in case. This is not contradictory, just good teaching for the survival of your children.
The Pope is the Father of the RCC.
If my son caught HIV because I never taught him about safe sex, just told him to wait until he was married, I would not say-"well, got what you deserved". I would be a failure as a father. Just as the Pope is failing to serve his children.

 

[Buttons*]

The Pope is the Father of the RCC.
If my son caught HIV because I never taught him about safe sex, just told him to wait until he was married, I would not say-"well, got what you deserved". I would be a failure as a father. Just as the Pope is failing to serve his children.

The Pope wouldn't say that either. He'd most likely feel terrible that he couldn't somehow teach his child that abstaining from sex is the most rational thing to do. (Now, I don't subscribe to this view, but I think it's fair enough.) He'd probably say, "I'm very sorry, you should listen to me next time." That's what my mom would probably say, and I reckon that's fair enough. Would you feel ok if your child sued you for asking him not to smoke cigarettes because they gave him lung cancer? It's the same thing, really. Father asks son - don't smoke cigarettes/don't have sex outside of marriage; Son makes a promise to God and you that he'll stay on the path you provided yet does those things anyway; Son consequentially ends up with HIV/lung cancer; Son sues Father.

See what I'm getting at?

 

[tumbleweed41]

The Pope wouldn't say that either. He'd most likely feel terrible that he couldn't somehow teach his child that abstaining from sex is the most rational thing to do. (Now, I don't subscribe to this view, but I think it's fair enough.) He'd probably say, "I'm very sorry, you should listen to me next time." That's what my mom would probably say, and I reckon that's fair enough. Would you feel ok if your child sued you for asking him not to smoke cigarettes because they gave him lung cancer? It's the same thing, really. Father asks son - don't smoke cigarettes/don't have sex outside of marriage; Son makes a promise to God and you that he'll stay on the path you provided yet does those things anyway; Son consequentially ends up with HIV/lung cancer; Son sues Father.

See what I'm getting at?

No, I do not, you are leaving out-Father teaches son about safe sex.
Children do not always obey, but we need to arm them the best we can.
I did not mention "suing" anyone. this is not about money, it is about lives.

 

[Buttons*]

No, I do not, you are leaving out-Father teaches son about safe sex.

and health risks of cigarettes/sex

Children do not always obey, but we need to arm them the best we can.

I think the Church thinks it's doing that. Who are we to judge, really? I did as my mom asked, and it made me happier in the long run. *shrug* I still have a mind of my own though

I did not mention "suing" anyone. this is not about money, it is about lives.

Oh sorry, it must have been someone else that brought up suing the church. I agree, it's about lives and how the church impacts those lives.

 

[gnostic]

My problem is not him telling people that it is better to abstain. My problem is that he is telling people not to use condoms at all.

That's the official advice and message he is giving to the public, and that where everyone else are having problem with the pope. He has no idea of the consequences of his irresponsible messages are. He is responsible if he tell people not to use condoms and his followers get HIV.

Abstaining alone is unrealistic because you are talking to people from Africa. And hence he is bl@#dy idiot, as well as his cronies. I can't stand self-righteous fool who would call on people not to use condoms.

 

[Smoke]

I think now that the world is larger, and more people believe more things, and we have the internet, it's much easier for people to learn, educate themselves, and get everything they need. I don't know how much ignorance we can really blame the Church for.

Fourteen countries in Africa have adult literacy rates below 50%. Twenty-five countries in Africa have women's literacy rates below 50%. Fewer than a quarter of the world's people have internet access. Fewer than 6% of Africans do.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't think anyone -- even the Catholic Church -- can persuade me they have a right to spread lies.

 

[Buttons*]

Fourteen countries in Africa have adult literacy rates below 50%. Twenty-five countries in Africa have women's literacy rates below 50%. Fewer than a quarter of the world's people have internet access. Fewer than 6% of Africans do.

I wasn't aware all of those people were Catholic

 

[Buttons*]

I don't think anyone -- even the Catholic Church -- can persuade me they have a right to spread lies.

But are they really spreading lies? The only way possible to not get HIV by sexual transmission is to not have sex.

Someone posted earlier mentioning that the Catholic church once said that condoms were laced with bad substances? If that's the case, then yes, they were lying, and that is wrong.

 

[blackout]

When the Catholic church tells it's members a thing is punishable by eternal hellfire... :sarcastic
the responsibility for the consequences of such a claim rest squarely on their shoulders.

 

[emiliano]

Utopian ideals do not reflect the real world.

The real world is a dangerous place, an unpleasant place, I rather seek God presence, thanks.

 

[emiliano]

Emiliano, can you try that again with quotes? Makes my brain hurt trying to figure out what you're talking about. BTW, I totally agree with half of the above.

Sorry about that, my computer was giving me all sorts of troubles, it is Ok now, so I'll try later

 

[England my lionheart]

The Pope is just as shackled by his own religion as all previous Popes,to have the power to save a lot of misery and not use it is a crime IMHO,all he needs to say is its ok to use a Condom

 

[Alceste]

In your opinion, what is the church's roll in education? What is the parent's role? Why does the Catholic church in particular have anything to do with people making individual choices concerning sex?

As I've said before, the church has rules... members are expected to follow those rules. This rule about condoms is for the members who are following the rules of the church. I don't think what the Pope says on condoms has anything to do with anyone else except for those who are, indeed, doing everything they can to be what the church expects of them.

At this point, and in my current mood, I don't have any problem with Catholics not using condoms and therefore having a higher rate of HIV infection amongst themselves.

However, the pope and his minions are making false statements of fact.I know the line is blurry here for religious believers, but condoms are 90 % effective against the transmission of HIV. That is a scientific fact. "Condoms worsen the problem" (and "condoms are laced with HIV") is in direct contradiction to the facts.

The fact is, it's like pulling teeth to get some men to wear a condom even without spreading lies against its effectiveness against pregnancy and disease. The ONLY reason people wear them is fear of disease and pregnancy and an awareness of the fact of their effectiveness in preventing both. Sure, all of us lustful infidels know 90 % is not 100 %, and abstinence would go the whole hog, but for people who don't subscribe to this "sex outside marriage offends god" nonsense, the greatly reduced risk of mishaps offered by condoms is outweighed by the pleasure of responsible, safer sex. When the church spreads MISINFORMATION about the effectiveness of condoms, and the misinformation inevitably spreads outside the "flock" into the secular world, they are attacking the only argument for condom use among non-believers.

If the church would openly admit the FACT that condoms are 90 % effective against HIV transmission, then continue to try to persuade their believers to be faithful, as they have been trying and failing to do for about 2000 years (and which is a laugh, considering the behavior of most of the Catholics I know), I don't care. Just quit with the misinformation.

 

[Sunstone]

The notion the Church is not lying is laughable.