Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
No, those programs which emphasized changed sexual behaviors- including abstinence, reduced partnerships or monogamy.
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Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV
- Thread starter challupa
- Start date
Without condom use? You think abstinence education works better than condoms at preventing aids?
The pope said condom use actually exasperates the problem. Do you agree with that as well?
Sigh...
In a roundabout way I was asking you to substantiate your opinion... If you have data to say the distribution of condoms has had a positive effect on the HIV/AIDS epidemic in Africa, please post them...
No, the Pope said the distribution of condoms does so... I'm not sure if I agree, but it hasn't helped...
I was trying to understand why you were posting you dont know - not stating an opinion so I didnt feel the need to substantiate an opinion not presented in order to pose a question to you.
If you want my opinion, Condoms are an important tool in the fight against Aids. Every major effort to combat aids has shown the condom to be more effective then abstinence education alone.
If you want to know how africa has or has not been affected by the various programs I would suggest a detailed investigation. The CDC can point you in the right direction as can many of the home pages of the various organizations dedicated to aids prevention.
If you are questioning the effectiveness of the condom against the spread of aids then I am not a 5th grade health teacher. Goto the FDA or research AIDS and effective, proven means at prevention. Then contrast that with abstinence.
So the pope says programs that involve condoms and distribution of condoms doesn't help the prevention of aids but rather exasperates it.
You dont know if you agree that it exasperates it but you do agree that it hasnt helped even though you admit you have no data, facts or have done any amount of research.... You want to contradict the experts, the cdc and spread misinformation because BalanceFx hasnt shown you any data that would disprove your belief.
You are making the statement that condom distribution and education has not helped prevention but you don't know that you just believe it.
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Religions, NGOs to promote abstinence in HIV/AIDS battle
By Administrator | March 2, 2007 in Local News
Representatives from the three major religions have joined forces with two non-governmental organisations and a United States Agency for International Development (USAID)-funded group to promote abstinence as a means of staving off HIV/AIDS.
On Wednesday the group, which comprises representatives from the Christian - Love and Faith Outreach Ministries - and the Hindu and Muslim religions, Artistes In Direct Support, the Guyana Responsible Parenthood Association and the USAID/Guyana HIV/AIDS Reduction and Prevention (GHARP) launched an abstinence and `be faithful’ campaign. The campaign will see manuals, posters and a CD being handed out to young people, teaching them about abstinence and being faithful to their married partner.
Osama Abbus Samad said the Muslim community has endorsed the programme as they believe that HIV/AIDS concerns them as well. Samad said that Muslims are commanded by their Prophet to acquire the knowledge and help humanity to prosper. “So it is incumbent on us Muslims to join the fight,” he said.
Pandit Chrishna Persaud said Hindus are taught to remove all defects from their being and joining the fight against the virus could be seen as doing so. He said they are grateful to GHARP for providing the manuals and are happy that it focuses on abstinence, adding that they would bring changes into the homes of Hindus who at one time could not utter certain words. Persaud recalled that an older pandit had initially refused to learn about HIV/AIDS saying that he was old and no longer sexually active so he could not contract the virus. However, they were able to show him how he could be affected if not infected by the virus as his grandchildren could become infected if they are not educated about it.
http://www.stabroeknews.com/2007/news/local/03/02/religions-ngos-to-promote-abstinence-in-hivaids-battle/
By Administrator | March 2, 2007 in Local News
Representatives from the three major religions have joined forces with two non-governmental organisations and a United States Agency for International Development (USAID)-funded group to promote abstinence as a means of staving off HIV/AIDS.
On Wednesday the group, which comprises representatives from the Christian - Love and Faith Outreach Ministries - and the Hindu and Muslim religions, Artistes In Direct Support, the Guyana Responsible Parenthood Association and the USAID/Guyana HIV/AIDS Reduction and Prevention (GHARP) launched an abstinence and `be faithful’ campaign. The campaign will see manuals, posters and a CD being handed out to young people, teaching them about abstinence and being faithful to their married partner.
Osama Abbus Samad said the Muslim community has endorsed the programme as they believe that HIV/AIDS concerns them as well. Samad said that Muslims are commanded by their Prophet to acquire the knowledge and help humanity to prosper. “So it is incumbent on us Muslims to join the fight,” he said.
Pandit Chrishna Persaud said Hindus are taught to remove all defects from their being and joining the fight against the virus could be seen as doing so. He said they are grateful to GHARP for providing the manuals and are happy that it focuses on abstinence, adding that they would bring changes into the homes of Hindus who at one time could not utter certain words. Persaud recalled that an older pandit had initially refused to learn about HIV/AIDS saying that he was old and no longer sexually active so he could not contract the virus. However, they were able to show him how he could be affected if not infected by the virus as his grandchildren could become infected if they are not educated about it.
http://www.stabroeknews.com/2007/news/local/03/02/religions-ngos-to-promote-abstinence-in-hivaids-battle/
You said "Condoms are very effective at preventing HIV/AIDS" in response to the Pope's "The distribution of condoms is not the answer"...
I am asking you to support your statement by showing where in Africa the distribution of condoms has been very effective in preventing HIV/AIDS
Haha, if you can't support your opinions just admit it, don't attack me...
It seem it is you and not I who has not researched the issue... Condoms are distributed by the billions in Africa, and have been for years... HIV/AIDS rates aren't going down...
For what it is worth, I am not going to make your arguement for you... if you don't want to research your opinions, fine by me, but I'm not going to accept them because you says so.
Is that what the pope said? The pope said condoms are not effective and they only make the problem worse.
Condoms are proven to be an effective form of preventing the spread of HIV and AIDS. Will they work when you use them 50% of the time? Will they work if you leave them in your pocket on the floor to keep the aids demons out of the room? What if your wearing one while sharing needles? Obviously there is more to condoms being effective then just distributing them.
Abstinence programs by contrast are proven to be not effective at all at preventing the spread of HIV as it seems telling people not to have sex doesn't work for some reason.
BaronVonKaiser
Member
What is it with religious people and sexual repression. How is it that so many children have been raped by priests in the Catholic church and yet so many people have trouble connecting the dots, forced sexual repression means BAD NEWS. Abstinence is great for children who are growing up until they learn how things work and can start to understand the consequences to their actions. But once that understanding is there, why on earth would you continue to repress natural sexual development. It's a huge driving force in us, possibly a weakness, possibly an asset of the human race, I'm not sure, but it's there, and being forced by your religion to deny it just leads to any number of psychological issues. It's not healthy and it's not right.
I've heard so many times, "if god had meant for us to do that, he would have given us that." So take a lesson from yourselves, if god had meant for people to no be allowed to masturbate, permitted only a single sexual partner over the course of your life... if that, and had meant for some people to become priests or nuns and be abstinent forever, WHY would he have integrated sexual urges so completely into who you are.
I've heard so many times, "if god had meant for us to do that, he would have given us that." So take a lesson from yourselves, if god had meant for people to no be allowed to masturbate, permitted only a single sexual partner over the course of your life... if that, and had meant for some people to become priests or nuns and be abstinent forever, WHY would he have integrated sexual urges so completely into who you are.
This is what the Pope said...
The same way telling people to use condoms doesn't work... which is why the distribution of condoms hasn't reduced HIV/AIDS in Africa...
And for what it is worth, the abstinence and faithfulness campaign in Uganda reduced the number of people reporting having casual sexual partners by 33%(from 30% to 20%), so it isn't totally ineffective...
Sexual child abuse is a social problem it occur in all levels of society and it not the consequence of sexual repression and I must say that Abstinence is not a repression but moderation, and is demanded of humans because our rationality. BTW abstinence does not means moderation of sexual activities exclusively, it is virtue that when is develop and practiced protects from an array of vices, thinks that those that havent got this virtue cant control, gluttony, drug addictions, dishonesty and lust.
Sexual permissiveness and lust are BAD NEWS, you can get infected with a STD.
You have deviated from the issue that we are discussing, the discussion is about adults that suffer or are at risk of getting infected or spreading the HIV virus, in general their condition is the consequence of their lack of self-control, their behaviors, behavior are learnt, thus they can be unlearnt, humans do not act on instincts alone by virtue of our rationality and intelligence we can abstain from things that a rationally harmful. Marital infidelity, sexual activities before maturity are just two examples.
Then why hasn't it? The Church has made its stance against extra-marital sex of any kind clear, but I haven't heard it say boo about the issue of having sex with one's infected spouse.
In fact, since the Church considers marriage and sexuality to be inexorably linked, wouldn't a sexless marriage be a violation of God's will as much as pre-marital sex would be?
I think the closest we'll come to what Mister Emu is asking for is the example of Uganda, which has already been referred to many times here. When they introduced their "ABC" campaign, HIV infection rates went down sharply. As the emphasis of the campaign shifted away from condoms in recent years (thanks more to strings attached to American funds than any direct influence of the Catholic Church), HIV infection rates went up slightly.
Now... AFAIK, condom distribution didn't change during this shift from emphasis on "ABC" to just "AB", but what did change is the education on condoms.
The lesson I personally draw from this is that condom distribution by itself isn't particularily effective, but condom education and awareness campaigns are, and availability of condoms is necessary for that education to be put into practice.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
There are legitimate reasons, I think, for which sexual activity could cease in marriage. Disease, I imagine, is one of them. The vow of marriage is also to be there for one's spouse in sickness and in health. I guess I always assumed that, if one contracts HIV or Aids, that is the end of one's sexual life given the risks. Even with condoms, I would not want to risk giving that to anyone.
However, obviously that's up to the individual couple to decided upon what they feel comfortable with. Catholic doctrine also teaches the primacy of conscience. I think in this situation a married couple would not have to deny any point of Catholic faith.
However, obviously that's up to the individual couple to decided upon what they feel comfortable with. Catholic doctrine also teaches the primacy of conscience. I think in this situation a married couple would not have to deny any point of Catholic faith.
That makes sense to me as well, but I've never heard the Church spell this out.
I think that depends greatly on one's interpretation. IMO, if the conversation in this thread shows anything, it's that Catholic doctrine is at odds with the consciences of many people.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
That's very true. And many theologians and even Catholic bishops have said this is noteworthy. If I recall, I have already sent you the Winnipeg Statement.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
BTW, I'm nearly certain that it is a given that the sexual component of the marital duty does not extend into times of sickness. It depends on other conditions, such as physical well being. Sexuality is part of the couple's fulfillment in one another, so if something diabolical like HIV or Aids is in the way, no one is obligated, by the fact that they are married, to have sex.
Great comment indeed, Emiliano. The I/Me invention of today's religions puts the inventor in the position of God and absolves one from guilt or culpability in any wrong-doing, commitment or moral standard of accountability to a higher authority. In this pick-and-choose perversion of basic Christianity (and probably of other belief systems), tenets are relative only to what is convenient or least painful and requires no study, commitment, or devotion to anything other than the self. The individual is the alpha and omega of absolute truth, knowledge and enlightenment. The individual is infallible. And that notion, of course, is the height of arrogance and closes all doors to new information or possibilities.
Yes, that's right... though I understand that it's not exactly in keeping with the position of the Vatican, and many Catholic theologians flat-out reject the controversial parts of the Winnipeg Statement.
Can a position held by a number of Catholics, or even by a number of Catholic bishops, necessarily be considered a "Catholic" if it's not aligned with the Vatican?
LittleNipper
Well-Known Member
Eventually, the guy wearing the condom will make a mistake and or a condom will fail. It is inevitable. When one places his faith in the works of man, he will eventually fail. So the Pope isn't condemning anyone ---- they are placing their own neck in the noose ----- all their own eggs in one basket.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
Yes, I believe so. Though not always necessarily at a given present moment. In the greater dialogue of the Church, it could very well prove that what Rome holds as informed opinion now, or even as a component of the ordinary teaching of Magisterium, could prove to be the truly Catholic position at a later date. For a very long time, it was the opinion, and quite often the content of the teaching, of many Roman pontiffs that slavery was permissible, or that public and legal recognition of religious plurality was opposed to the Catholic faith. The sensum fidelis - the sense of the faithful- plays an important role in the clarification of Catholic doctrine. Some of the greatest mystics of the Church were, at one point, seen as highly suspicious by an ever-[and neccessarily so] conservative Rome only to be canonized by her later. Thomas Aquinas' use of Aristotle was not always well recieved.
St. Augustine wrote securus judicat orbis terrarum, that the "verdict of the world is conclusive".
This is why the Church is called to be catholic (universal). Catholic both vertically and horizontally, across time and space.