Posit: The Concept of the Supernatural Cannot Exist.

[Bunyip]

other opinions are what challenge other opinions.
But thanks.

My evidence beyond my opinion would be; the evidence from mystical and paranormal experiences, the teachings of many masters of a wisdom tradition. This is evidence (not proof which; no one has a right to claim).

Well ok, but that is a different category of evidence. I meant empirical evidence, as opposed to anecdotal. You would need empirical evidence to present a challenge to materialism. Without it there is nothing to challenge. I hope that makes sense to you. SUBJECTIVE evidence does not challenge materialism, only empirical evidence can.

 

[George-ananda]

Well ok, but that is a different category of evidence. I meant empirical evidence, as opposed to anecdotal. You would need empirical evidence to present a challenge to materialism. Without it there is nothing to challenge. I hope that makes sense to you. SUBJECTIVE evidence does not challenge materialism, only empirical evidence can.

Anecdotal evidence are people's empirical experiences.

 

[Bunyip]

Anecdotal evidence are people's empirical experiences.

No they aren't George. Would you, like a definition of 'empirical evidence'?

 

[George-ananda]

No they aren't George. Would you, like a definition of 'empirical evidence'?

Yes

 

[George-ananda]

No they aren't George. Would you, like a definition of 'empirical evidence'?

From Wikipedia:

Empirical evidence (also empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge, or the a posteriori) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation.

What's your definition?

 

[Cephus]

Anecdotal evidence are people's empirical experiences.

But it is not empirical, it is subjective. Many of these so-called experiences are people arbitrarily attributing causes they cannot demonstrate.

 

[Bunyip]

Yes

Great. Rather than trust me - there is a great wiki page, just search; Define empirical evidence.

It refers to data from observation and experiment.

See also: Empirical evidence: A definition - Live Science

 

[Cephus]

From Wikipedia:

Empirical evidence (also empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge, or the a posteriori) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation.

What's your definition?

Please explain which experiments you have performed and present your data.

 

[George-ananda]

Great. Rather than trust me - there is a great wiki page, just search; Define empirical evidence.

It refers to data from observation and experiment.

See also: Empirical evidence: A definition - Live Science

Correct. I am referring to people's observations.

 

[Bunyip]

From Wikipedia:

Empirical evidence (also empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge, or the a posteriori) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation.

What's your definition?

Fantastic. Please refer me to such an experiment and the resulting data. Where was it published?

 

[George-ananda]

Please explain which experiments you have performed and present your data.

Please re-read. It was an 'or' statement; observation OR experimentation.

 

[Bunyip]

Please re-read. It was an 'or' statement; observation OR experimentation.

Great. What was the experiment and what observations were published?

 

[Cephus]

Please re-read. It was an 'or' statement; observation OR experimentation.

Then demonstrate that you've had these observations. Demonstrate something. You're just making unsupported claims. A better definition than you provided for empirical is "capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment". How can you verify the things you claim?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why does there have to be a scientific principle behind an event, person, or thing for it to be considered natural? Also, why do we have to use what we can prove natural by scientific principle in order to disprove the existence of something or someone that does not meet the same criteria?

There is no such thing as supernatural. All is natural, spiritual to physical, to whatever. We have to be comfortable with what we do not know and/or what exists that cannot be proven by scientific principle or method. If we only think reality is just as far as our noes goes, how will you get anywhere without tripping?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Whether we mean 'supernatural' in terms of religious miracles, or whether we mean it in terms of ghosts or other such events, I posit that the concept of the supernatural cannot exist.

Conjecture:

Anything with the label 'supernatural' which is found to be a real part of the physical world (let us say someone proves ghosts exist), then whatever is behind that must be underpinned by a scientific principle and must, therefore, be a natural occurrence (assuming that no technology is the cause).

Anything natural cannot be supernatural, and anything supernatural which is proveable is, by default, natural, meaning that the concept fo the supernatural cannot exist.

Discuss.

 

[George-ananda]

Then demonstrate that you've had these observations. Demonstrate something. You're just making unsupported claims. A better definition than you provided for empirical is "capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment". How can you verify the things you claim?

Anecdotal evidence is considered for quantity, quality and consistency. Anecdotal evidence, intelligently considered, is factored into my worldview.

 

[Bunyip]

Anecdotal evidence is considered for quantity, quality and consistency. Anecdotal evidence, intelligently considered, is factored into my worldview.

Yes, but we are talking about empirical evidence remember?

 

[George-ananda]

Great. What was the experiment and what observations were published?

There are 150 years of literature on the subject of paranormal studies.

 

[George-ananda]

Yes, but we are talking about empirical evidence remember?

I remember that well. We are talking about people's empirical (sensory) experiences.

 

[Cephus]

Anecdotal evidence is considered for quantity, quality and consistency. Anecdotal evidence, intelligently considered, is factored into my worldview.

Anecdotal experience is largely considered the least reliable form of "evidence" available.

 

[Bunyip]

There are 150 years of literature on the subject of paranormal studies.

Yes, and so far pretty much nothing as a result.