Possible to be a Moral Atheist?

[Commoner]

I am a total douche.
And that's not even sarcasm.
I'm mean, self-centered, and all of those other negative characteristics.
I'm not going to lie. I'm a narcisistic *****.

You were doing so well, but then completely disappointed me. Not going to lie??!

What's up with the goody two-shoes attitude? You tryin' to be funny or something?

Anyways, back to burning ants and pillaging and stuff.

 

[Jeremiah]

As an atheist, I do not believe in a set of moral standards given to us by an omnipotent creator. This being the case, I regularly steal whatever I want, as I have no moral reason not to. And if someone ****** me off, I just off them - I mean, there are no morals, so why not? Additionally, I frequently attend drug-fueled orgies - as I might as well do what feels good, right?

I'm wondering whether other atheists are somehow capable, or willing, to live moral lives, or whether the rest of you simply do whatever you want, whenever you want, to whomever you please, since there are no moral consquences.

If you do live by some set of morals, why bother?

Thank you.

"If you do live by some set of morals, why bother?"

Because I have to live with myself my entire life. And it also makes it easier to shave if I can look at myself in the mirror.

 

[Amhairghine]

As an atheist, I do not believe in a set of moral standards given to us by an omnipotent creator. This being the case, I regularly steal whatever I want, as I have no moral reason not to. And if someone ****** me off, I just off them - I mean, there are no morals, so why not? Additionally, I frequently attend drug-fueled orgies - as I might as well do what feels good, right?

If you do live by some set of morals, why bother?

Thank you.

Please admit that you are an Evangelical Christian posting to discredit real Atheists. Of course reality is that Atheists are more moral than Christians. Statistics prove it.

The most secular nations have the lowest rates of murder and violent crime.

Adherents.com: Atheist Statistics | Agnostic

Population--- % Atheist/Agnostic/NonTheist--------Number of A/A/N
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Sweden) 8,986,000------------46 - 85%--------4,133,560 - 7,638,100
(Vietnam) 82,690,000---------81%--------------66,978,900
(Denmark) 5,413,000----------43 - 80%--------2,327,590 - 4,330,400
(Norway) 4,575,000------------31 - 72%--------1,418,250 - 3,294,000

The murder rates are between and 0.9 and 1.5/100,000. The hyper-religious USA has a homicide rate that has varied from 10-20/100,000.

Even in the US, while estimates of Christians are most recently estimated at 77% depending on the poll, in a 19 state survey…homicide rates 10-20 per 100,000.

< http://www.atheists.org/nj/html/body_prisons.html>

In US prisons there were 91.1% (Judeo-Islamo-Christians) of which 79.76% Christians, that leaves only 8.7% for all other religions (Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagans, Wiccans, Scientologists, Rasta, American Indian, Krishna, Sikh, and minor religions.) It leaves only 0.2% Atheists in US prisons.

So Christians are slightly overrepresented in the prison population while Atheists (popularly called “immoral”), are at 0.2% of the prison population (10% of general population) vastly underrepresented in prison. Another way of looking at it is that Theists (90% of America’s general public) make up 99.8% of prison inmates compared to Atheists (10% of general population) who are 0.2% of prison inmates.

This all shows that views founded on Christian bigotry and ignorance quite often vary far from the facts.

The fact is that Atheists have a powerfully more strict moral code than Christians despite the lies about us. I will try to explain why this is to be expected.

Amhairghine

 

[Amhairghine]

The Brain’s Moral Compass

There is a frontal brain network of circuits overlapping and incorporating the rational-sceptical supercircuits. This circuit deals with a number of functions that come under the term ethics or morality. The hardwiring of the circuits is genetic, but the content is learned, absorbed by culture, and taught in various ways. Damage to an area of the pre-frontal cortex of the brain (medial Right more than medial Left) causes a person to behave immorally, antisocially, and break all of his/her moral principles. Such a person knows right and wrong but does not care. The Limbic emotional circuit is disconnected from the damaged Moral Compass. The emotional function of guilt fails to inhibit an anticipated immoral act.

URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c...0117EDT0426.DTL

Guilt is tied in with the emotional Limbic Lobe. We feel bad if we do wrong. That bad feeling for wrong behaviour is GUILT. The rational circuits evaluate what is right (adaptive) and wrong (maladaptive). They use reason, critical analysis, and sceptical evaluation to discard error, bollocks, and harmful acts. This Prefrontal Moral Compass has many connections to the Rational-Sceptical system, long term memory circuits, AND the LIMBIC LOBE. Atheists and Agnostics are dependent on rational, intuitive, analytical, and sceptical circuits. The same circuitry that leads us to reject irrational beliefs and gods imposes an uncompromising rational morality backed by the emotional guilt response.

In the USA Christians are 85% while Atheists are 5-8% of the general population. In US prisons, Atheists are only 0.2% of the inmates. So why are Atheists so UNDERREPRESENTED in prison? Why does hyperreligious America have a homicide rate of 10/100,000 but Netherlands, France, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Scotland, England, and Iceland (with 40-60% unbelievers) have homicide rates from 0.9 to 2.3/100,000?

In the case of sceptics, I think this pre-frontal executive area is more “efficient,” more multisynaptic, and connects to more extensive association circuitry. Its inhibition of immoral behaviour is part of the system that inhibits all irrational ideas. Therefore it also inhibits religious belief by rejecting it as irrational. Atheists/Agnostics are more constrained by moral inhibitions (conscience) than religious edicts. Neurobehavioural morality is more demanding of a person than that of one who is moral only because an odd book says what is right. Religious based morality alone is faulty because of the delusion that God erases sins if one is “saved.” The problem of religion is the nullification of guilt that makes future guilt less deterrent.

Religionists (Christian Catholics and Fundamentalists) have moral compasses that are based more on religious edit than reason, intuitive morality, and emotion (guilt). They are based on the unsupported assumption of a God and a shaman/priest/prophet whose words are those of the God. Morality is the personal edict of that God. This morality is not absolute but changeable and relative. God can change his mind. Scripture is ambiguous. Religion offers loop holes to immoral behaviour. Catholic Confession and Fundamentalist “getting saved” erase all sin and wash away guilt. The result is a weakened moral compass.

Morality founded on reason, intuition, memory, and guilt is non-negotiable. Guilt is forever. Thus to the non-theist the very anticipation of permanent guilt is the greatest deterrent to temptation. Once having experienced this guilt, the Atheist/Agnostic is emotionally pushed to follow his/her hard wired neurological morality. We know that we will feel bad if we do wrong.

We know we can not get away with evil behaviour by simply accepting Jesus to erase all sins and guilt. We know that we cannot excape guilty by simply confessing sins to a priest. So our morality is higher than Christian Morality. We do right because it is right and we do not wish to do wrong.

The Christian believes that there is no absolute or objective morality. The Christian believes that what is moral and what is immoral is only related to the particular mood of a God at a particular time. Morality is just orders from a God, not something that is intuitive in our brains.

Crime statistics in heavily Christian nations, especially Catholic and Evangelical/Fundamentalistic show the highest rates of violent crime and murder. They are lower in liberal Christian nations and lowest in the least religious countries. Does that not tell the story?

Faith does not bring moral behaviour, it allows you to be immoral and get away with it.

Amhairghine.

 

[Amhairghine]

There are intuitive moral values and immoral inhibitions, species specific and moulded by evolution. I am an Agnostic Evolutionist. Intuitive Morality is genetic and entirely brain based. Genes programme the hardware structure of the Moral Compass in our brains. Our culture provides the soft-ware data coding of our social contract morality, so that we can make moral decisions. Behaviour is thus acted upon by our hardware structure that makes many things intuitively right or wrong. It is necessary to be taught moral principles to reinforce and further define behaviour.

Memory tells us how bad we feel when we hurt someone or otherwise do wrong. Affect-emotion associated with the anticipated action and memories of past action join with learned morals and intuitive (Neurobehavioural) morals. Those circuits connect to the Pre-Frontal Moral Compass and the Frontal inhibitory system. This is what makes us inhibit (resist) temptation to do wrong if the behaviour fails the scrutiny of the rational-sceptical circuitry. That rational-sceptical module, our emotional input, and the processed final decision is what we now call our Pre-frontal Moral Compass.

The Intuitive Rational-Sceptical and Emotional hardware is better “designed” in some people than others. It is better or more effectively programmed in some (good people) than others (bad people) by their culture (parents, church, and civil laws.) Yet we all have an intuitive "knowledge" that murder apart from killing in self/family defence is wrong. We know that theft is wrong. We know that killing any baby is wrong now as it was in the time of Deuteronomy (when God ordered it.)

We KNOW that spousal abuse, rape, deprivation of personal freedom (slavery), lying, child molestation, fraud, persecution of dissent, deprivation of freedom of/from religion, and robbery are wrong, now and always wrong.

Some Christian Bible and Islamic Qur’an believers think that killing babies was alright if God ordered it. It was alright if God killed the babies (Egypt and Noah's Flood). God is never condemned or indicted for crimes against humanity. He supposedly inflicted plagues on innocent people for what their Pharaoh did. He ordered the killing of Jewish men/women/children/babies for erecting a golden calf (changing religion.) My intuitive morality tells me that those things were wrong.

All of those things were implicitly moral in the Old Testament but not in the New Testament. Now only the most dodgy or extreme Fundamentalist would insist that it is still alright to kill the babies of infidels.

Thus Judeo-Christian morality is very relative. It is not moral or immoral on any objective basis but purely the whim of God who can change his mind. This denies Intuitive brain based morality or suppresses it. This contributes to the high Christian crime rate, and murder rates compared to Atheists/Agnostics. Keep in mind that Christians are not a homogeneous group. Fundamentalists and Catholics differ greatly from mainstream Protestants, moderate and liberal Christians as prison statistics indicate.

The association of crime and religiosity is due to a failure to see such things as robbery, lying, or murder as wrong. Or it could be the belief that one is not personally responsible for his/her behaviour. Some religious people fail to comprehend the intuitive evil of an action. When they avoid crime it is not because of the harm done to fellow humans. It is only wrong by God’s current but changeable mood. Commandments are ineffective if there are no penalties.

By saying a few magic words certain Christians can erase any responsibility for evil acts. One is saved as long as one believes and is born again. One’s sins are trivialised and do not count (in Fundamentalism) or forgivable by confession (in Catholicism.) My hypothesis is that for some, Christian Morality is relative. It is what might be called "situational ethics."

US prison statistics strongly confirm this and show that Fundamentalists and Catholics are disproportionately represented in all US prisons compared to Mainstream, Moderate, and Liberal Christians. Members of Eastern religions, and unbelievers are barely represented at all in prisons. Atheists and Agnostics are 10% of Americans but 0.2% of prison inmates.

The latter groups (Mainstream/Liberal Christians, Eastern believers, Jews, Atheists, and Agnostics) feel that they must bear responsibility for their "sins." And thus they are all underrepresented in prisons. While religious ideologies that make morality relative, trivialise immoral actions, and remove personal responsibility inevitably promote bad behaviour.

Disclaimers:

1. I am not condemning or slandering Christians in general. I think that Fundamentalism and Catholicism have inherent moral flaws.

2. I admit that I did not factor in low education, poverty, racial discrimination, broken families, and genetic predisposition which all tend to cluster in a vast underclass that commits most of the crime. Most of these people are Baptists, Catholics, and various variants of those. This could contribute to the extraordinary prevalence of those religious groups in the criminal population.

3. No members of this forum should feel that I consider them in the categories described.

Amhairghine

 

[Jeremiah]

Please admit that you are an Evangelical Christian posting to discredit real Atheists. Of course reality is that Atheists are more moral than Christians. Statistics prove it.

The most secular nations have the lowest rates of murder and violent crime.

Adherents.com: Atheist Statistics | Agnostic

Population--- % Atheist/Agnostic/NonTheist--------Number of A/A/N
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Sweden) 8,986,000------------46 - 85%--------4,133,560 - 7,638,100
(Vietnam) 82,690,000---------81%--------------66,978,900
(Denmark) 5,413,000----------43 - 80%--------2,327,590 - 4,330,400
(Norway) 4,575,000------------31 - 72%--------1,418,250 - 3,294,000

The murder rates are between and 0.9 and 1.5/100,000. The hyper-religious USA has a homicide rate that has varied from 10-20/100,000.

Even in the US, while estimates of Christians are most recently estimated at 77% depending on the poll, in a 19 state survey&#8230;homicide rates 10-20 per 100,000.

< http://www.atheists.org/nj/html/body_prisons.html>

In US prisons there were 91.1% (Judeo-Islamo-Christians) of which 79.76% Christians, that leaves only 8.7% for all other religions (Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagans, Wiccans, Scientologists, Rasta, American Indian, Krishna, Sikh, and minor religions.) It leaves only 0.2% Atheists in US prisons.

So Christians are slightly overrepresented in the prison population while Atheists (popularly called &#8220;immoral&#8221, are at 0.2% of the prison population (10% of general population) vastly underrepresented in prison. Another way of looking at it is that Theists (90% of America&#8217;s general public) make up 99.8% of prison inmates compared to Atheists (10% of general population) who are 0.2% of prison inmates.

This all shows that views founded on Christian bigotry and ignorance quite often vary far from the facts.

The fact is that Atheists have a powerfully more strict moral code than Christians despite the lies about us. I will try to explain why this is to be expected.

Amhairghine

"Please admit that you are an Evangelical Christian posting to discredit real Atheists. "

Atotalstranger is a real atheist but I don't think his post was meant to be taken literally.

"Of course reality is that Atheists are more moral than Christians. Statistics prove it."

Statistics can lie.

Population--- % Atheist/Agnostic/NonTheist--------Number of A/A/N
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Sweden) 8,986,000------------46 - 85%--------4,133,560 - 7,638,100
(Vietnam) 82,690,000---------81%--------------66,978,900
(Denmark) 5,413,000----------43 - 80%--------2,327,590 - 4,330,400
(Norway) 4,575,000------------31 - 72%--------1,418,250 - 3,294,000

The murder rates are between and 0.9 and 1.5/100,000. The hyper-religious USA has a homicide rate that has varied from 10-20/100,000.

Even in the US, while estimates of Christians are most recently estimated at 77% depending on the poll, in a 19 state survey&#8230;homicide rates 10-20 per 100,000.

The USA has over 300 million people in it. I think that religion has less of an impact then the fact that our DOC is just overwhelmed. It is much easier for a country with a smaller population to run effective rehabilitation. And there may be several other factors such as cultural influences and politics. Your statistics are not really fair in my mind. It is hard to compare counties there are just too many different variables. Not to mention the USA is over 3x bigger then the largest nation in that list.

In US prisons there were 91.1% (Judeo-Islamo-Christians) of which 79.76% Christians, that leaves only 8.7% for all other religions (Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagans, Wiccans, Scientologists, Rasta, American Indian, Krishna, Sikh, and minor religions.) It leaves only 0.2% Atheists in US prisons.

Clearly there is going to be a higher percentage of Christians in prison simply because they are in greater numbers. It has nothing to do with morality.

 

[rojse]

I am quite immoral. Last Friday, for example, I taped a football game without the expressed permission of the broadcast station or the central body of the football league in question.

 

[Jeremiah]

I am quite immoral. Last Friday, for example, I taped a football game without the expressed permission of the broadcast station or the central body of the football league in question.

Do you mean real football or soccer?

 

[rojse]

Do you mean real football or soccer?

I meant it as a joke.

I don't watch football at all, "real" or soccer.

 

[prayersofjerusalem]

Yes of course...Not to Believe in God does not exept one from morality

 

[Amhairghine]

Atheist morality is founded on principles of behaviour that proved successful through millions of years of evolution. Brain circuits that enabled a high degree of rational thinking, critical analysis, logic, and sceptical filtering out of rubbish ideas produced that segment of humanity that accounted for us advancing from Australopithecus to Homo sapiens sapiens. However, we have been a leading elite but far from a majority. Most humans just evolved along with us, unwillingly or kicking and screaming from knuckle walking to control of rage attacks. Those humans needed an artificial and imposed arbitrary morality to keep the tribe from total chaos. Religion imposed one of those arbitrary relativity types of morality. Law imposed civil morality on those lacking a moral compass and conscience. Their behaviour is guided only by fear of punishment. Atheists have neurocognitive intuitive morality from evolution. Religionists have relativitistic morality based on claims of divine commands. Psychopaths have no morality but only behave out of fear of prison.

Amhairghine

 

[dacx]

I'll lie, cheat, steal or do whatever I want whenever I want as long as I know I'm not going to get caught. No, I'm not afraid of going to Hell but I don't particularly want to go to prison.

 

[Willamena]

Brain circuits that enabled a high degree of rational thinking, critical analysis, logic, and sceptical filtering out of rubbish ideas produced that segment of humanity that accounted for us advancing from Australopithecus to Homo sapiens sapiens.

What do critical thinking, logic, and skeptical thinking have to do with evolution?

 

[Commoner]

What do critical thinking, logic, and skeptical thinking have to do with evolution?

Oh look, a lion. Lions eat meat. I am meat. Ugh...my head hurts from all the thinking. I think I'll sit down. Oh, hello, lion. Wait...what are you doing!??? Thats' my leg!!!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!...........

Come on, was that a serious question?

 

[Amill]

I do whatever the hell that I want. I just happen to be a human that has evolved some sense of empathy for other humans and animals, so I do not generally WANT to cause them deliberate mental or physical pain unless it is for my own survival or for those I care more about. If I do happen to cause someone or some thing unnecessary harm I feel guilt afterward and try to do my best to not do it again. Another reason I can restrain myself from personal pleasure is because I can think about the possible consequences of my actions, and the things that may happen to me in return. I weigh the pros and cons of a situation before deciding what action to take. The only time I am not able to analyze consequences is when my actions are out of impulse or emotion, and the logical side of my mind is overwhelmed or not fast enough to react.

 

[Father Heathen]

What do critical thinking, logic, and skeptical thinking have to do with evolution?

That we have evolved to have the capability of such things, and that such things allow us to acknowledge and understand the reality of evolution.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm wondering whether other atheists are somehow capable, or willing, to live moral lives, or whether the rest of you simply do whatever you want, whenever you want, to whomever you please, since there are no moral consquences.

If you do live by some set of morals, why bother?

Thank you.

Is that a joke of some kind?

Surely you understand that god belief has little to no weight whatsoever on morals.

I certainly think so, anyway.

 

[Jeremiah]

Oh look, a lion. Lions eat meat. I am meat. Ugh...my head hurts from all the thinking. I think I'll sit down. Oh, hello, lion. Wait...what are you doing!??? Thats' my leg!!!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!...........

Come on, was that a serious question?

Don't confuse natural selection with evolution.

 

[Jeremiah]

What do critical thinking, logic, and skeptical thinking have to do with evolution?

Those traits may actually give us the ability to significantly influence evolution.

 

[dogsgod]

http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/U/2/3/The-Atheist-e.jpg