Post Your Denomination

[Deeje]

Going back to the previous idea. The body will return to the Earth and rest, but the spirit will go back to God, unwilling to know the event on Earth, while dwelling in hades (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 12;7, Luke 16, Psalm 16:9-10) I have heard the explanation of Gehenna before. Perhaps it was a description given by Jesus to describe that place of punishment. I do not see how you can get around the idea of Hell. It is described many times as a place of great destruction.

Gehenna was exactly what the Jews at that time knew it to be. It was a symbol of complete destruction.
Matthew spoke about it...."And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [gehenna]"

Read it carefully.....What happens to someone in gehenna? They are destroyed, "body and soul". A "Hell" of fiery torment doesn't exist except in vivid imaginations. In order for someone to suffer in any way, they need to be conscious. The dead are not conscious.There is no invisible part of man that keeps on living. That is the lie that the devil told in Eden. "You surely will not die".

God is not a fiend. A loving God would never do such a thing. It would never enter his mind. (Jeremiah: 7:31)

As for the kingdom being established in Acts 2, I still hold my position. It is evident that John could not have made that statement unless he was a member of that kingdom, thus meaning the kingdom had to have been established during this time period.

John was not in the kingdom when he wrote his Revelation.....he said that he was a partner with his brothers, looking forward to his reward because he had endured tribulation like Jesus.
" I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches".

Do you see where John was? He was a prisoner on the Isle of Patmos for preaching about Jesus, but in the spirit, he was transported in a vision to "The Lord's Day"...he was told to write of future events.

I do not believe those dead in Christ went strait to heaven, but paradise as we are given description of in Luke 16. This verse actually addresses the 144,000 very well! This shows Jesus has prepared enough room for everyone! Assuming you believe in that, not to get off on another subject. Lol.

You should know better than to introduce another subject....

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. Taken literally, it is ridiculous. The rich man pictures the Pharisees, and the beggar pictured the spiritually impoverished ones of the Jewish nation whom the rich man failed to feed and care for. Their deaths are a reversal of their status. Abraham's bosom was pictorial of the favored position with God, so the Pharisees lost it, but the "lost sheep" gained it by listening to Jesus and accepting him as Messiah. Think about it.....are heaven and hell within speaking distance to each other? Can a drop of water cool someone's tongue in a fire? There is nothing literal in that parable which is surrounded by other parables. Should we take them all as literal?....or as Jesus' favorite teaching method?

To kind of change lanes for a moment, how is it one attains salvation?

LOL....we are all over the road!

First of all, we need to know what it is that we are being saved from? Do you know? Once we establish that, we can continue.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Excuse me, if I may interject here....

The Bible does not support a regenerated Earth. Not in the slightest.

'Earth destroyed by fire', but Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, "the earth abides forever". How do we understand this seeming contradiction?

Genesis 11:1 says, "All the Earth was of one language and one set of words."

"Earth" here means "people, society", not the planet.
So -- as in Noah's day -- this worldly society with all it's infrastructure, its works, will be gone.

If you take 2 Peter 3 "fire" literal, then not just the Earth but the heavens too, will be destroyed! Heavens is symbolic, also. Ephesians 3:10 can help to understand.

 

[Slabraton]

Hi guys. I am just asking what denomination you attend. No the specific place, but he specific type of church you attend(ex. baptist, catholic, methodist, etc.)

The Catholic Church is not a denominational church. It is the nomination of Christ.

 

[CohenDavidson]

Luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

I see how you could have come tooth's conclusion. Jesus taught many times using rhetorical questions. Many times question used to cause deep thought within the individual being asked. In our language today, especially the KJV, this would sound as if Jesus was giving up his divine nature and separating himself from God. Perhaps you have to realize how he is saying this statement. It seems as if Jesus is showing the rich young ruler the accuracy in his statement that he may not have otherwise seen. It is almost as if Jesus is making sure the ruler knows who he is talking to. John 20:28, Thomas refers to Jesus as his God. If Jesus was not God, which is good, meaning perfect in all ways, Jesus would have reprimanded him. This would have been idolatry. 1 John 5:20, Jesus is referred to as the God of eternal life. Colossians 2:9, we are told that Jesus is God in the flesh. We could go on. Their are too many verses that back the idea of Jesus being God, meaning he is perfect. Taking one verse and applying a reading as such will not work. You have to consider motives behind statements, as well as tone. Jesus was not saying he was not good, but letting the ruler know who he was talking to. In Matthew 19, we are given the same statement in verse 17. Later in the context, Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells of the time when he will sit on his throne. Later in Matthew 25:31-32, we are told of when Jesus is going to come back to be the Judge of the world. How is he able to judge if he has sin? The Bible is clear that the debt of sin must be paid. The verse also stat of how he is above the angels. The only being above the angels is God. Only God is able to have the authority to come back and Judge the world. I could make some similar points, such as verses that describe Jesus as being perfect, meaning sinlessly perfect. Perhaps this will do though. I hope that this may help! Feel free to ask me anything else.

 

[CohenDavidson]

Actually it says that the body becomes dust and returns to the earth. ("For dust you are and to dust you will return". Genesis 3:19) God created man from the elements (dust) of the earth. Adam was told that he would return there. God made no mention of an afterlife, where Adam would live on.

So, let's see...."the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

What is the spirit that returns to God? In Hebrew, the word "spirit" is "ruʹach " and in Greek "pneuʹma" and basically mean “breath”. It is closely related to another word used in Genesis 2:7 (nĕshamah) which is what God gave Adam to animate his lifeless body....the "breath (spirit) of life". Ruʹach is also used in Genesis 6:17 and Genesis 7:15 to indicate the breath of life.

Reflecting its connection with air and breathing are our English words "pneumatic" and "pneumonia".

So when the body dies the only way a person can live again is if God resurrects that person and gives them the breath of life, returning their "spirit". This is not speaking about some invisible part of man that lives on after death. The soul is the living, breathing creature, either man or animal. The body + spirit = a soul. Souls are mortal and they die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

It seems as if you are getting much of the verses from Ecclesiastes. Again, when looking at the whole context of the Bible, this simply is not supported. Many verses speak of an afterlife for the just, as well as the wicked. Verses such as Acts 24:15 say that both will be raised from the dead and brought to the judgment. When defining the word spirit, I believe we do a poor job of showing accuracy. Us living in a physical world, it is hard to give accurate description. I guess we will only know when we are in the spirit. The point is not if a mention was made. Just because God did not make a mention of it to Adam, which we do not actually know. God could have spoken to Adam and it not have been recorded. But, just because it was not recorded in the times of Adam, does not mean that it does not exist. May other verses state the opposite of you point. The verse in Ezekiel 18:4 is tricky if you do not realize that the word death is used to mean spiritual and physical death. In Matthew 8:22, Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. What did he mean by that? He mean let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead. We be spiritually dead here on earth. When we die in our sin, we are permanently spiritually dead. In John 8:21, Jesus said that those who die in their sins will not be able to go where he is going. The verse in Ezekiel is speaking of spiritual death, meaning one who dies in there sins.

Hang on...what? You are assuming that Jesus parable in Luke 16 is literal? I assure you it is not. Hades is not "hell".
Hades is the Greek equivalent of "sheol" which is simply the common grave. The ancient Jews had no belief in life after death. There was no immortal soul in the Hebrew scriptures so noting left the body to go anywhere. The body went to sheol.....

Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."

The dead do not have any further share with anything that is done "under the sun" or in this world.....the one ruled by the devil. They have no emotions....no activity.....no thoughts....knowledge or wisdom. Everyone goes to this "hell".
It is not a punishment, but a place for the dead to rest and await the coming resurrection. Its not a scary place at all. "Hellfire" is a Platonic idea picked up from the Greeks.

I have already attempted to explain the Ecclesiastes verse. I will not retrace steps. In Luke 16, how do we know this was not a literal story? I will tell you why I believe it is a literal story and not a parable. In each parable account by Jesus, when he described people, he never provided names of those within his parable. This would be obvious, because he spoke in figurative language to provide a deeper meaning. Look throughout the New Testament, no names are provided in the parables. Jesus speaks of a man named Lazarus here, that perhaps his audience recognized. Jesus was not speaking in figurative language. He was speaking of an event that took place concerning a man that perhaps these listeners knew. If this was not an actual even, Jesus would not have used a specific name. This audience seemingly knew Lazarus.

"Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices;
my flesh also dwells secure.
10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
or let your holy one see corruption."

This is actually a prophesy concerning the Messiah. That his flesh would not decompose in the grave.
But apart from that, what is David saying here? He is rejoicing because his "flesh" is "secure". His "soul" was not going to be abandoned or left in the grave, because of the promise of the resurrection. Gehenna carried the opposite idea....one left in the grave forever, never to see life again.

Can you tell me if God promises everlasting life only to the righteous, then why keep the wicked alive, only to torture them forever?
Doesn't God have better things to do?

I am aware that this was talking about the messiah. I had to reread this verse and go look back at the Hebrew. I overlooked this very important detail. I will have to continues studying these verses. Psalm 49:15, David says God will not leave his soul in the grave. As you said, this could refer to the soul staying in the grave. I will be honest, I am not sure about these verses. I have a thought, that may not necessarily be true. Many verses are found within the Old Testament about perhaps this idea of the soul being left in the grave. Then we come over to the New Testament and we are told in multiple places of the soul being given a dwelling place until the judgment(hades) as described by Jesus. Again, this may not be true, but it is just a thought. The Jews were not afforded the remission of sin under the law of Moses, only a delay of sin for one year, if I am correct. I wonder, again, this is just a thought, if before Jesus's resurrection, that the dead were as stated in Ecclesiastes 9:5, with Jesus's coming, opened the doors to hades, the spiritual waiting place. This is probably all wrong, just an interesting thought. Besides the fact, we a re given too much information about were we go after death in the new testament. Sorry for the crazy idea, I will need to study these verse more, however, to get a greater understanding. Again, too much evidence within the New Testament. I am not denying the verses in the Old Testament, but I am not convinced that they do not fall in line with these verses within the NT. More study needs with the OT verses.

 

[CohenDavidson]

'Earth destroyed by fire', but Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, "the earth abides forever". How do we understand this seeming contradiction?

Genesis 11:1 says, "All the Earth was of one language and one set of words."

"Earth" here means "people, society", not the planet.
So -- as in Noah's day -- this worldly society with all it's infrastructure, its works, will be gone.

If you take 2 Peter 3 "fire" literal, then not just the Earth but the heavens too, will be destroyed! Heavens is symbolic, also. Ephesians 3:10 can help to understand.

This is not my writing, but something I have found that will perhaps help better understand this idea.

"One generation passes away, and another generation comes; but the earth abides forever" (Ecclesiastes 1:4).

The Hebrew word 'owlam refers to something that is of a long, indefinite period. It is a period of time which you cannot say for certainty when it comes to an end. To see this, look a few verses later to Ecclesiastes 1:10, "Is there anything of which it may be said, "See, this is new"? It has already been in ancient times before us." The same word, 'owlam is translated as "ancient times." The writer is not stating that the world has been in existence for an infinite amount of time, but that it has been around so long that it is hard to say precisely when it began.

God stated in Isaiah 42:14, "I have held My peace a long time, I have been still and restrained Myself. Now I will cry like a woman in labor, I will pant and gasp at once." The same word, 'owlam, is translated at "a long time." In this verse God is not saying He would never speak. In fact, He states that now He would cry out. He had held His peace for a long, indefinite time, but that time came to an end. Therefore, we see that something "forever" can come to an end.

This is also seen in the sacrifices of the Old Testament, "And it shall be for Aaron and his sons, and they shall eat it in a holy place; for it is most holy to him from the offerings of the LORD made by fire, by a perpetual statute" (Leviticus 24:9). (The word 'owlam, is translated as "perpetual.") Though perpetual, those sacrifices came to an end (Hebrews 9:25-28).

In the same way, the temple was built to stand forever (II Chronicles 2:4), but that temple no longer stands.

From my understanding, this Hebrew word is used in various other passages to refer to an long period of time. Not necessarily meaning it will last forever and ever, but a long period of time. Since this was written, it has been a very long period of time.

 

[Deeje]

It seems as if you are getting much of the verses from Ecclesiastes.

''You brought up Ecclesiastes 12:7
Solomon said a lot of important things. Like Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.....

"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust".

Solomon lamented that humans are no better off than the animals if death is the same for all. Animals are not promised eternal life but they have the same "spirit" (breath) that we do. When breathing stops death occurs. No mention of an afterlife there.

Again, when looking at the whole context of the Bible, this simply is not supported. Many verses speak of an afterlife for the just, as well as the wicked. Verses such as Acts 24:15 say that both will be raised from the dead and brought to the judgment.

This is resurrection...not an "afterlife" in which some invisible spirit of man departs from the body at death. There is no scripture in the Bible to suggest that this happens. All speak of the grave as somewhere to "sleep".

Acts 24:15 is about the resurrection.....
"And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous".
Paul statement is backed up by Jesus' words at John 5:28-29...

"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

Both the righteous and the unrighteous are called from the same place...their graves (sheol, hades) their graves are on earth and people on earth are the ones Jesus and his "joint heirs" will be ruling. (Romans 8:17; Revelation 21:2-4)

Do you understand that there are two resurrections? One is to heaven, for those chosen by God to rule with Jesus, and the other is for the earthly subjects of his kingdom. You do understand that not all Christians go to heaven? Do you understand that if Adam and his wife had remained faithful, they would still be alive and Jesus would never have come? That means no Kingdom would have been necessary and no one chosen from earth to go there. Humans going to heaven was never supposed to happen.

When defining the word spirit, I believe we do a poor job of showing accuracy. Us living in a physical world, it is hard to give accurate description. I guess we will only know when we are in the spirit.

What if we aren't going to be "in the spirit" because we are not one of the "chosen ones"? What do you think the chosen ones are chosen for? (Revelation 14:1-4) Why are they called "firstfruits"?

What if this physical realm is meant to be our permanent home. Scripture points to this fact. God never intended for us to die...we were meant to live forever in our mortal flesh. The "tree of life" was there in the garden to guarantee it. What was the first thing God did when the humans sinned? He barred the way to the tree of life.....so that they would not live forever. (Genesis 3:22-24)

 

[Deeje]

The point is not if a mention was made. Just because God did not make a mention of it to Adam, which we do not actually know. God could have spoken to Adam and it not have been recorded. But, just because it was not recorded in the times of Adam, does not mean that it does not exist.

When something is important, it is recorded in the Bible. There is an important difference between "soul" and "spirit" in the OT. Neither were said to be disembodied humans. A "soul" is a living breathing creature, either human or animals. The "spirit" is the breath that keeps creatures alive. The spirit goes out...just like a candle...it is extinguished.

As David said in Psalm 146:4...

"His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish."

If someone is alive, don't they need to be able to think?

May other verses state the opposite of you point.

But I don't believe they do. If you think there are some, please share them.

The verse in Ezekiel 18:4 is tricky if you do not realize that the word death is used to mean spiritual and physical death.

"Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die."

This is from the Tanach and it clearly states that souls die. Its got nothing to do with spiritual death. As it goes on to clarify in verse 20

"The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

This physical death, the individual's sins meriting the physical punishment of the death penalty.

Verses 26-28 continue....

"When a righteous man repents of his righteousness and does wrong and dies on that account; for the wrong that he has done he should die. And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness that he has done, and does justice and righteousness, he will keep his soul alive. He will see and repent of all his transgressions that he has committed-he shall surely live; he shall not die."

In Matthew 8:22, Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. What did he mean by that? He mean let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead. We be spiritually dead here on earth. When we die in our sin, we are permanently spiritually dead. In John 8:21, Jesus said that those who die in their sins will not be able to go where he is going. The verse in Ezekiel is speaking of spiritual death, meaning one who dies in there sins.

Jesus was talking about the spiritually dead burying their dead, but Ezekiel wasn't, as you can see from the other verses in that chapter.

John 8:22 in context reading from John 8:21-30, shows that he is speaking to the Pharisees. These men Jesus said were to receive "the judgment of gehenna". This is why he said that where he was going they could not come. Their sin merited eternal death.

 

[Deeje]

I have already attempted to explain the Ecclesiastes verse. I will not retrace steps. In Luke 16, how do we know this was not a literal story? I will tell you why I believe it is a literal story and not a parable. In each parable account by Jesus, when he described people, he never provided names of those within his parable. This would be obvious, because he spoke in figurative language to provide a deeper meaning. Look throughout the New Testament, no names are provided in the parables. Jesus speaks of a man named Lazarus here, that perhaps his audience recognized. Jesus was not speaking in figurative language. He was speaking of an event that took place concerning a man that perhaps these listeners knew. If this was not an actual even, Jesus would not have used a specific name. This audience seemingly knew Lazarus.

Have you read this parable in context? Luke 12-21 is awash with parables. Why pick this one just because Jesus named the beggar? Did he name the rich man? He spoke of Abraham too, was he literally part of the illustration? Is heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Can a drop of water on someone's finger cool someone in a fire?

Its got nothing to do with "hell". Jesus never taught about Christendom's hell because they stole it from the Greeks. The Hebrew scriptures did not teach belief in an afterlife. They pointed forward to a physical resurrection. The Hebrew scriptures were all Jesus had.

I am aware that this was talking about the messiah. I had to reread this verse and go look back at the Hebrew. I overlooked this very important detail. I will have to continues studying these verses. Psalm 49:15, David says God will not leave his soul in the grave. As you said, this could refer to the soul staying in the grave. I will be honest, I am not sure about these verses. I have a thought, that may not necessarily be true. Many verses are found within the Old Testament about perhaps this idea of the soul being left in the grave. Then we come over to the New Testament and we are told in multiple places of the soul being given a dwelling place until the judgment(hades) as described by Jesus. Again, this may not be true, but it is just a thought.

The Bible is a treasure trove of information, but we have a deceiver in the world who doesn't want the truth to be known. Remember that he was the one who lied to Eve, telling her that she would not die. He has been spreading that lie ever since. All false worship teaches this.

There is nothing that survives death. The soul 'sleeps' just like Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)

The Jews were not afforded the remission of sin under the law of Moses, only a delay of sin for one year, if I am correct.

The blood of animal sacrifices provided a temporary basis for forgiveness until Messiah came with everlasting deliverance. (Hebrews 9:22; Hebrews 9:12)

I wonder, again, this is just a thought, if before Jesus's resurrection, that the dead were as stated in Ecclesiastes 9:5, with Jesus's coming, opened the doors to hades, the spiritual waiting place. This is probably all wrong, just an interesting thought.

This is not what is indicated by the Apostle Paul....he said all would "sleep" until Christ's return, at which time he would gather all his chosen ones ready for their heavenly assignment. Those who are alive at the time Jesus arrived, would not go to heaven before those asleep in their graves. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
Paul said that rather than sleep in death, those still alive on earth when Jesus arrived for judgment, would be instantly transformed into spirit beings.

Besides the fact, we a re given too much information about were we go after death in the new testament. Sorry for the crazy idea, I will need to study these verse more, however, to get a greater understanding. Again, too much evidence within the New Testament. I am not denying the verses in the Old Testament, but I am not convinced that they do not fall in line with these verses within the NT. More study needs with the OT verses.

I believe that you are confusing the verses in the NT about going to heaven. Once you realize that only the chosen 144,000 go to heaven in the capacity of kings and priests (Revelation 20:6) you will understand that there are two resurrections that happen at different times.....the last two scriptures cited speak about the "first" resurrection. Jesus speaks about the general resurrection of the dead and these are called from their graves.(John 5:28-29)

Is sleeping in death such a bad thing? It was the reason why I studied the Bible in the first place. If the dead are alive somewhere and they know what is going on down here with us, how could heaven ever be a happy place? They would be watching all the terrible things happening down here and not be able to do a thing to prevent awful things happening to the people they love.

If I asked you where you were before your parents conceived you.....what would you answer?

 

[GoldenThread]

Hi guys. I am just asking what denomination you attend. No the specific place, but he specific type of church you attend(ex. baptist, catholic, methodist, etc.)

There are many denominations of Christianity today, yet is that how it is suppose to be?

Jesus taught that we should be one as Him and His Father are one (John 17:11). The very word 'denomination' implies 'division'. Jesus isn't divided.

There is only one Christian denomination. Those that follow this denomination are those that follow Jesus. It is as simple as that.

No name. No building. Just a group of people (scattered across the world) following the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes. Some of these people don't know each other, yet they are one in spirit.

In peace

 

[CohenDavidson]

Have you read this parable in context? Luke 12-21 is awash with parables. Why pick this one just because Jesus named the beggar? Did he name the rich man? He spoke of Abraham too, was he literally part of the illustration? Is heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Can a drop of water on someone's finger cool someone in a fire?

Its got nothing to do with "hell". Jesus never taught about Christendom's hell because they stole it from the Greeks. The Hebrew scriptures did not teach belief in an afterlife. They pointed forward to a physical resurrection. The Hebrew scriptures were all Jesus had.



The Bible is a treasure trove of information, but we have a deceiver in the world who doesn't want the truth to be known. Remember that he was the one who lied to Eve, telling her that she would not die. He has been spreading that lie ever since. All false worship teaches this.

There is nothing that survives death. The soul 'sleeps' just like Lazarus. (John 11:11-14)



The blood of animal sacrifices provided a temporary basis for forgiveness until Messiah came with everlasting deliverance. (Hebrews 9:22; Hebrews 9:12)



This is not what is indicated by the Apostle Paul....he said all would "sleep" until Christ's return, at which time he would gather all his chosen ones ready for their heavenly assignment. Those who are alive at the time Jesus arrived, would not go to heaven before those asleep in their graves. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
Paul said that rather than sleep in death, those still alive on earth when Jesus arrived for judgment, would be instantly transformed into spirit beings.



I believe that you are confusing the verses in the NT about going to heaven. Once you realize that only the chosen 144,000 go to heaven in the capacity of kings and priests (Revelation 20:6) you will understand that there are two resurrections that happen at different times.....the last two scriptures cited speak about the "first" resurrection. Jesus speaks about the general resurrection of the dead and these are called from their graves.(John 5:28-29)

Is sleeping in death such a bad thing? It was the reason why I studied the Bible in the first place. If the dead are alive somewhere and they know what is going on down here with us, how could heaven ever be a happy place? They would be watching all the terrible things happening down here and not be able to do a thing to prevent awful things happening to the people they love.

If I asked you where you were before your parents conceived you.....what would you answer?

I do believe you have confused me with all of this. This is the act problem with the idea of the spiritually dead not going to a place of torment... If you die and just are unconscious of everything, you are not being punished, but you are nothing for the rest of eternity, as you were before your birth.

As for the 144,000. This is just number to represent the saints. The ones who are said. God is no respecter of persons(Acts 10:34). Just as the other things you have mentioned, they hold no Biblical basis. The 144000, the regenerated Earth, the idea of no Hell. I still can not at all see how you do not believe in the idea of Hell. Jesus spoke of this place throughout all his ministry, including the story of Lazarus. I assume that Jesus did not name the rich an by name out of respect. As He demonstrated the same type of respect when in Acts 1:25, when referring to Judas, He said, "he went to his place" . Jesus continually spoke of this place called Hell. A place that guilty souls would be cast into after the judgment. The judgment that occurs after death(Hebrews 9:27-28).

The point is, you seriously have to apply misinterpretation and pull verses out of context to allow them to apply to your teachings.

Speaking of the 144,000. Jesus said that their is enough room in Heaven in John 14:2. Aging, theBible says nothing about this special number other than some verses in Revelation, that is a very figurative and symbolic book. You then apply this to some foreign idea that you suppose is supported in Revelation(first error), but not only is it foreign to teachings throughout the former parts of the Bible, but it completely contradicts the previous ideas as well.

I may have already asked this, but what are your views on salvation

 

[CohenDavidson]

There are many denominations of Christianity today, yet is that how it is suppose to be?

Jesus taught that we should be one as Him and His Father are one (John 17:11). The very word 'denomination' implies 'division'. Jesus isn't divided.

There is only one Christian denomination. Those that follow this denomination are those that follow Jesus. It is as simple as that.

No name. No building. Just a group of people (scattered across the world) following the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes. Some of these people don't know each other, yet they are one in spirit.

In peace

So what do you consider the spiritual status of those who are members of the denominations that have divided themselves off from Jesus's church?

 

[CohenDavidson]

The Catholic Church is not a denominational church. It is the nomination of Christ.

What do you mean by this?

 

[GoldenThread]

So what do you consider the spiritual status of those who are members of the denominations that have divided themselves off from Jesus's church?

John 15:1-8,"
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

If someone divides from Jesus, then this scriptures reveals what spiritual state they are in.

In peace

 

[syo]

Hi guys. I am just asking what denomination you attend. No the specific place, but he specific type of church you attend(ex. baptist, catholic, methodist, etc.)

My involvement with christianity is the Orthodox.

 

[Deeje]

I do believe you have confused me with all of this.

I believe that the confusion you feel is a result of accepting Christendom's doctrines instead of accepting what Jesus taught. I was raised with the beliefs you hold, but when I studied the Bible as one complete story, rather than just accepting the ambiguous verses taken in isolation by a corrupt church system, I found that most of what I was taught in church was transferred from paganism and grafted into Christianity, until it no longer resembled Christ's teachings at all. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4)

Original Christianity was one cohesive group of Christ's disciples who all shared one set of beliefs ("one Lord, one faith, one baptism") so, does the divided state of Christendom genuinely represent Christ's teachings? (1 Corinthians 1:10)
See first century sectarian Judaism, and see its mirror image in Christendom....slaves to the traditions of men....broken up into disagreeing factions. Jesus and his apostles foretold the coming apostasy and Christendom pretends that it never happened. (Acts 20:30; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1-3)

This is the act problem with the idea of the spiritually dead not going to a place of torment... If you die and just are unconscious of everything, you are not being punished, but you are nothing for the rest of eternity, as you were before your birth.

Ask yourself.....what was the highest penalty one could pay for any crime committed in Israel according to God's law? Then ask if any penalty involved prolonged suffering? In ancient Israel, they did not even have prisons....there was no incarceration except for the accidental manslayer, one who had taken a life by accident, but had no ill intent. There were cities of refuge where they could live in relative freedom within the city limits. So even an accidental death incurred a penalty, but not a severe one. Life was precious and no life lost was inconsequential.

Now, in order to punish the wicked eternally, God would have to keep them alive eternally. Eternal life is promised only to the righteous....so why does God need to punish the wicked with anything more than eternal death? Will he experience some kind of pleasure in tormenting them forever? Hasn't he got more important things to do?

How is justice satisfied by punishing someone forever for sins committed in a short lifetime, because of inherited sin that came from Adam? The punishment does not fit the crime.

If God told Jeremiah that the sacrifice of Israel's children in the fire to Molech was abhorrent to him, then why would he do it himself? (Jeremiah 7:31)

As for the 144,000. This is just number to represent the saints. The ones who are said. God is no respecter of persons(Acts 10:34). Just as the other things you have mentioned, they hold no Biblical basis.

Are you familiar with the account in Revelation 7 concerning the ones who merit salvation? Please read it and tell me how many groups are mentioned there and where they are pictured?

The 144000, the regenerated Earth, the idea of no Hell. I still can not at all see how you do not believe in the idea of Hell. Jesus spoke of this place throughout all his ministry, including the story of Lazarus. I assume that Jesus did not name the rich an by name out of respect. As He demonstrated the same type of respect when in Acts 1:25, when referring to Judas, He said, "he went to his place" .

Actually Jesus spoke of Gehenna and hades....neither of which is Christendom's "hell".

Have you studies these words in Greek? Would you like to explore them?

Judas was assigned to the same "place" as the Pharisees....guilty of "unforgivable sin"....he would never see life again either.

 

[Deeje]

Jesus continually spoke of this place called Hell. A place that guilty souls would be cast into after the judgment. The judgment that occurs after death(Hebrews 9:27-28).

The judgment is indeed "after death" but not immediately.....only upon resurrection. As Jesus said...."Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28-29 NASB)
Jesus was speaking about the time when he would be ruling as King of God's Kingdom. The tombs of the dead are on earth and the life that is returned is in the flesh. Until the resurrection, they "sleep".

Paul also said before his Jewish opposers..."But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." (Acts 24:15)

You see, the judgment does not occur until the resurrection, which was yet future. So all who sleep in their "tombs" will be called out of them to face either a favorable judgment meriting "life" or an unfavorable judgment where those will be given opportunity to prove themselves worthy of continuing to live. Those in their tombs consist of many who lived and died long before Messiah came, so they had no opportunity to know the true God or to hear about his Messiah. Isn't it fair that they get a second chance?

The point is, you seriously have to apply misinterpretation and pull verses out of context to allow them to apply to your teachings.

None of the verses are out of context...they are simply out of line with the teachings of Christendom. Who is Jesus talking to in Matthew 7:21-23? When is he saying those words?

Speaking of the 144,000. Jesus said that their is enough room in Heaven in John 14:2.

Yes, more than enough room, but only 144,000 are chosen for positions in heaven. God has chosen them, not men....and its nothing that any human can volunteer for. When God does the choosing, there is no confusion.

Aging, the Bible says nothing about this special number other than some verses in Revelation, that is a very figurative and symbolic book. You then apply this to some foreign idea that you suppose is supported in Revelation(first error), but not only is it foreign to teachings throughout the former parts of the Bible, but it completely contradicts the previous ideas as well.

Revelation is a very symbolic book...not one that can be read with understanding unless guided by God's spirit. But in this time of the end, God was going to reveal much about a lot of things. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) He was also going to cleanse his worshippers at this time, removing the religious mire that entraps so many today. They are bogged down with conflicting ideas, broken up into so many fragments that true Christianity has all but vanished. Most people can't tell the difference between the 'wheat' and the 'weeds'. Jesus can.

The question I asked you above..."Are you familiar with the account in Revelation 7 concerning the ones who merit salvation? Please read it and tell me how many groups are mentioned there and where they are pictured?".....if you read that chapter you will see a literal number contrasted with an infinite number. There are clearly two groups who achieve salvation...."servants of God" "sealed" for heavenly rulership (spiritual Israel)...and the other group, an unnumbered "great multitude" who were from all nations, attributing their salvation to God and the Lamb. These John said are "the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them."

Since Revelation 21:2-4 says.... “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men" it is clear that this group is humans on earth....survivors of the coming "great tribulation". (Matthew 24:21)

I may have already asked this, but what are your views on salvation

Yes, and my answer was..."First of all, we need to know what it is that we are being saved from? Do you know? Once we establish that, we can continue."

So what specifically are we saved from? Its a rescue from what?

 

[metis]

My involvement with christianity is the Orthodox.

I just learned something the other day (I know, a first!), and that is that the Orthodox are in communion with Catholics and can partake in the Eucharist in a Catholic church.

Now, the only question is whether I'll remember this tomorrow.

 

[Shak34]

None. But I was born and raised as a JW.

 

[GodInUs]

Hi guys. I am just asking what denomination you attend. No the specific place, but he specific type of church you attend(ex. baptist, catholic, methodist, etc.)

I don't attend a church and I personally do not have one, but I am in a relationship with Jesus. He has invited me to be in His family which makes me His church/bride. My responsibility lies in being His church, not giving it to a building. It's about Jesus and me and of course my brothers and sisters in His family who I assemble and fellowship with as a community of believers out in the world, not just within four walls of a building or just a certain congregation. His church can't be contained within the four walls of a building. When we come together to fellowship as His body there's not one of us who is more important than the other, as His church none of us have to be quiet the whole time and just let only one person do all the talking and sharing. We all get a chance to talk and share because He lives and dwells in each of us, not one of us is more important than the other, He is the one we keep our attention and focus on. Denomination?? No, sorry, just in love with Jesus and always looking to share and talk about Him with the rest of His church and body.