• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Postmodernism is alive, very influential, very destructive, and very opposed to critical thinking

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Before I address the thrust of the OP, post modernism, I'll add something to the current discussion on whether Canada's C-16 will include pronouns and misgendering as discrimination.

The Canadian Department of Justice website says that they will look to the various human rights commissions for help, and that the Canadian Human Rights Commission will ultimately decide the boundaries of the law:
Definitions of the terms “gender identity” and “gender expression” have already been given by the Ontario Human Rights Commission, for example. The Commission has provided helpful discussion and examples that can offer good practical guidance.
Questions and Answers

From the Ontario Human Rights Commission website:

“misgendering” is a form of discrimination
The Tribunal found misgendering to be discriminatory in a case involving police, in part because the police used male pronouns despite the complainant’s self-identification as a trans woman.
Refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity, or purposely misgendering, will likely be discrimination
Questions and answers about gender identity and pronouns

If the Canadian Human Rights Commissions follows in the footsteps of Ontario, which the fact that they directly referenced it seems to suggest, then C-16 will make "misgendering" and the refusal to use chosen pronouns proscribed discrimination.

As for prison, the law, as noted, allows the HRC's demands to be orders of the federal court. According to rule 466 of the Canadian Federal Court disobeying an order of the court is contempt which may result in imprisonment for a period of less than five years or until compliance.
Federal Courts Rules

Will it ever get to that point? I certainly hope not. But, the law allows for it; until rulings come down deciding how this will be handled the concern is valid.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
If the law actually means that people (e.g., employers) are going to be fined or even thrown into prison for refusing to pay fines for using the "wrong" pronouns, then the DOJ webpage is one big lie. Right?

As Brown testifies (and you can hear elsewhere), the DOJ appears to be scrambling a bit and undoing things that were earlier on their website - more details to be unraveled.

And also, part of what Brown is saying is that based on consistent past behavior, we can predict likely ways in which these various agencies will flesh out these laws. But we already see examples of speech-related "hate crimes" being prosecuted - argh.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Before I address the thrust of the OP, post modernism, I'll add something to the current discussion on whether Canada's C-16 will include pronouns and misgendering as discrimination.

The Canadian Department of Justice website says that they will look to the various human rights commissions for help, and that the Canadian Human Rights Commission will ultimately decide the boundaries of the law:

Questions and Answers

From the Ontario Human Rights Commission website:




Questions and answers about gender identity and pronouns

If the Canadian Human Rights Commissions follows in the footsteps of Ontario, which the fact that they directly referenced it seems to suggest, then C-16 will make "misgendering" and the refusal to use chosen pronouns proscribed discrimination.
You've linked to the same DOJ page webpage I've linked to several times. It uses the pronoun "she," one of the "wrong" pronouns. Here is the image shown at 0:12 of Icehorse's video:

Screen-Shot-2016-12-12-at-2.48.40-PM-640x195.png


So is using "he" or "she" a form of "misgendering"? No.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If the Canadian Human Rights Commissions follows in the footsteps of Ontario, which the fact that they directly referenced it seems to suggest, then C-16 will make "misgendering" and the refusal to use chosen pronouns proscribed discrimination.
How many cases of using the "wrong" pronoun has the Ontario HRC heard and decided?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
How many cases of using the "wrong" pronoun has the Ontario HRC heard and decided?
At least one, where a refusal to use preferred pronouns was determined to be illegal discrimination in all areas covered by the human rights law.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Post-modern thought is a blight upon all it touches, from art to liberal studies to social sciences.

So, while some of these connections might be coincidence, here is a list of (possible), connections between postmodern philosophy and some modern ills:
I think you are casting a broad net here with what follows. Not all social ills lie at the feet of post-modernism; and in fact, I'd suggest that post-modernism itself doesn't promote positions such as what you've described. What it does, and the insidious nature of it, is that it insulates the believer from critical thought and engagement with philosophical adversaries. If there are no meta-narratives or constructs like logic or morality, then no argument against my individual narrative of reality can be valid. The events that occurred don't matter, only how I experienced them. Disagreement is only ever a struggle over power to make your reality manifest.

Post-modernism isn't everything that's bad, it is the rejection of fundamental truths and realities and the idea of meta-narratives of the human experience. Which, typical of the human experience, leads to everything bad.

Would you include the Theory of Gravity, the Theory of Germs, and the Theory of Evolution in your "variety of competing perspectives", none of which can be determined to be more valid than others?
The hard sciences have been left, so far, clear of the damage done by post-modernism. You can "feel" that racism is a major or minor issue and that makes it real to you and subsequently convince others of your reality; you can't "feel" that the gravitational pull of earth is less than it is and have any effect. Being a woman might alter how you "experience" the workplace, but it doesn't have a whit to do with the biological ancestors of modern species.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I think you are casting a broad net here with what follows. Not all social ills lie at the feet of post-modernism; and in fact, I'd suggest that post-modernism itself doesn't promote positions such as what you've described. What it does, and the insidious nature of it, is that it insulates the believer from critical thought and engagement with philosophical adversaries. If there are no meta-narratives or constructs like logic or morality, then no argument against my individual narrative of reality can be valid. The events that occurred don't matter, only how I experienced them. Disagreement is only ever a struggle over power to make your reality manifest.

First off, great summary.

As I said in the OP, I suspect that the purveyors of the bad ideas listed in the OP would rarely cite postmodernism as influential to their thinking (although I guess the whole idea of citations is up for grabs - argh). I'm just guessing that if we traced the lineage of some of these weird ideas back to their source we might find a postmodern "thinker" in there somewhere.

Next, I have to admit that my antenna is on the lookout for the ideas listed in the OP, so it's hard for me to know how widely these ideas are catching on, but I see - for example - in the Ontario Human rights Commission official documentation, that they consider "intersectionality" (note to @YmirGF ), to be a real thing. So, sigh...

Policy on preventing sexual and gender-based harassment
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How many cases of using the "wrong" pronoun has the Ontario HRC heard and decided?
At least one, where a refusal to use preferred pronouns was determined to be illegal discrimination in all areas covered by the human rights law.
The only case that the Ontario HRC cites is the 2015 British Columbia case, Dawson v. Vancouver Police Board. There, the BCHRT Member found that there were 2 incidents in which the VPB discriminated against Dawson by failing to provide the required medical services, the first and most egregious incident occurring 11 days after Dawson had had sex-reassignment surgery. The BCHRT also found there was at least a single overt incident of discrimination, which included referring to Dawson as a male despite well knowing that she is a transgender woman.

This case involves a highly complex set of circumstances where the complainant has a long and extensive history with the Vancouver PD, has a substantial criminal history, including a conviction and incarceration for manslaughter. Many of the interactions between the VPD and Dawson stem from her habit of directing traffic at intersections in Vancouver, while on roller skates and wearing large headphones through which she is (often) listening to loud music. She apparently often wore (wears) a dress or skirt during this activity. At times she has impeded traffic doing this. It seems she often (though not always) referred to herself as a woman and used a female name (most recently, Angela) well before she had sex-reassignment surgery. But in her earliest interactions with the VPD, her sex was listed as male and her legal name Jeffrey was used.

At the time of the BCHRT decision, more than 5 years after her sex-reassignment surgery, Dawson still had not changed her name or her sex on her state-issued documents. And many of the incidents where an officer referred to her as male or called or listed her name as Jeffrey seemed to be rather innocent, due to prior history with her, records listing her sex as male and her name as Jeffrey, uncertainty about the legal effect of listing her sex and name differently than that on past records, lack of knowledge that she had had sex-reassignment surgery, and more or less an unwritten policy where a person's sex and name should be referred to in accordance with official documents and/or genitalia. On the other hand, not every encounter with her seemed to be the most respectful on either party's part, and one can easily imagine ill-motivated words arising during these incidents.

The case law cited in Dawson is sparse and iffy at best. No case is referenced where use of a pronoun different than that by which a transgender person identifies constituted a discriminatory practice. Certainly no case law is noted requiring anyone to use the freakish no-language words listed in my post above that are supposed to represent gender-neutral pronouns. Hopefully needless to say, the Human Rights Act does not regulate the language used in private conversations between individuals; rather, discriminatory treatment is defined in terms of employment and provision of goods and services by covered entities.

Dawson cites the vaguely relevant 2012 case of Moore v. British Columbia (Education), in which Supreme Court set out the three requirements for a prima facie case of discrimination (“complainants must show that they have a characteristic protected from discrimination; that they have experienced an adverse impact; and that the protected characteristic was a factor in the adverse impact”). The complainant in Moore was the parent of a child with severe dyslexia who was receiving remedial educational services at an auxiliary center run by the school district. When the district closed the center, the child transferred to a private school, and the parent filed a complaint alleging that the child had been denied a “service . . . customarily available to the public” under the BC Human Rights Code. The BCHRT agreed, ordering wide-ranging remedies, including reimbursement by the district for the child's private school tuition. The decision was substantially upheld upon appeal through the courts.

Apparently the Dawson decision was not appealed--the paltry sum of $15,000 awarded to her presumably made it more costly to appeal than to pay.

I do not think Dawson received an adequate award, even for her distress and humiliation in being denied medical services, which the VPB is required to provide. Further, one can only conclude that she suffered an adverse impact due to intentional “misgendering” language after officers were clearly informed and knowledgeable that she was a transgender woman. There is nothing acceptable in a police department or other government agency or employer referring to a transgender person in a way that is intended to demean and shame him or her, any more than it is acceptable to refer to a person in a demeaning or shaming way on the basis of the person's race or religion.

There is no issue of compelled speech by including gender identity and gender expression in the anti-discrimination and hate-propaganda laws, any more than the inclusion of sex, race, religion or sexual orientation compels speech. The anti-discrimination and hate-propaganda laws are strictly prohibitory of certain acts and behavior. The discriminatory treatment that the VPB was found to have perpetrated against Dawson was not due to an officer failing to use any prescribed words, but, rather, because the officers “differentiate[d] adversely in relation to an[ ] individual, on a prohibited ground of discrimination.” Human Rights Act, s. 5(b). The BCHRT decision calls particular attention to the incident on June 18, 2010. See pp. 35-40 of decision.
 
Last edited:

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You don't determine the quality of a law by saying "it hasn't gone wrong, yet".
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
The case law cited in Dawson is sparse and iffy at best.
I am just going by what the Ontario HRC says, that misgendering or refusing to use the personal pronoun that matches their self-identified gender will likely be a violation of the human rights act.

There is no issue of compelled speech by including gender identity and gender expression in the anti-discrimination and hate-propaganda laws, any more than the inclusion of sex, race, religion or sexual orientation compels speech.
The law has not been used in the past to force a certain type of speech that may be disagreeable to the speaker. That is why the addition is concerning, because previously, you might have been forced not to call someone a racial epithet, but, not directed to say something you do not intellectually assent to.

Certainly no case law is noted requiring anyone to use the freakish no-language words listed in my post above that are supposed to represent gender-neutral pronouns.
If the demand that you use "personal pronouns that match their gender identity" is followed, and someone says they identify as a 'Xie' today and the only pronouns of that gender are 'xi, xum and xar', you would, if using a pronoun, have to use those words.

Obviously, I hope that the courts are not that asinine, but, their own website suggests it.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You don't determine the quality of a law by saying "it hasn't gone wrong, yet".

I am just going by what the Ontario HRC says, that misgendering or refusing to use the personal pronoun that matches their self-identified gender will likely be a violation of the human rights act.


The law has not been used in the past to force a certain type of speech that may be disagreeable to the speaker. That is why the addition is concerning, because previously, you might have been forced not to call someone a racial epithet, but, not directed to say something you do not intellectually assent to.


If the demand that you use "personal pronouns that match their gender identity" is followed, and someone says they identify as a 'Xie' today and the only pronouns of that gender are 'xi, xum and xar', you would, if using a pronoun, have to use those words.

Obviously, I hope that the courts are not that asinine, but, their own website suggests it.
It is nothing more than transphobic bigotry to claim or suggest that inclusion of “gender identity or expression” in the anti-discrimination and hate propaganda laws allows for violation of the compelled speech doctrine in some different way than inclusion of race, religion, sex or sexual orientation does.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It is nothing more than transphobic bigotry to claim or suggest that inclusion of “gender identity or expression” in the anti-discrimination and hate propaganda laws allows for violation of the compelled speech doctrine in some different way than inclusion of race, religion, sex or sexual orientation does.

You've said this many times, which means you're calling me a liar, because I have said many times that my only concern here is protecting free speech from incursions, even if those incursions were not intentional.

Unless you have something to add that has evidence, I'm not going to respond to you anymore, as I don't appreciate being called a liar.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You've said this many times, which means you're calling me a liar, because I have said many times that my only concern here is protecting free speech from incursions, even if those incursions were not intentional.
You've had ample opportunity but obviously haven't been able to make any argument that inclusion of "gender identity or expression" in the anti-discrimination and hate propaganda laws implicates compelled speech any more than inclusion of race, religion, sex or sexual orientation does.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You've had ample opportunity but obviously haven't been able to make any argument that inclusion of "gender identity or expression" in the anti-discrimination and hate propaganda laws implicates compelled speech any more than inclusion of race, religion, sex or sexual orientation does.

Jared Brown's testimony hasn't explained it to your satisfaction.
@Mister Emu hasn't explained it to your satisfaction.
Jared Brown's blog / brief hasn't explained it to your satisfaction.
I haven't explained it to your satisfaction. (To be fair, I stopped when Emu's post came along.)
You seem stuck on the idea that a law must be fine if it hasn't gone south... yet.
You seem stuck on the idea that - given zero evidence to support you - we're all a bunch of trans-phobes.

Many reading this thread might start to suspect that the problem isn't with all of us, but with you. ;)
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
It is nothing more than transphobic bigotry to claim or suggest that inclusion of “gender identity or expression” in the anti-discrimination and hate propaganda laws allows for violation of the compelled speech doctrine in some different way than inclusion of race, religion, sex or sexual orientation does.
The vacuous casting of aspersions is the last resort of the unsubstantiated position.

But, do show where the human rights commission, any of them, has previously compelled speech.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@Nous Some selections from the Ontario Human Rights Commission policies (link below):

Gender-based harassment is one type of sexual harassment. Gender-based harassment is “any behaviour that polices and reinforces traditional heterosexual gender norms” (Elizabeth J. Meyer, “Gendered Harassment in Secondary Schools: Understanding Teachers’ (Non) Interventions,” Gender and Education, Vol. 20, No. 6, November 2008, 555 at 555). It is often used to get people to follow traditional sex stereotypes (dominant males, subservient females).

So if someone wants to be called "xer" and I call that person "her" I could well be committing "gender-based harrassment" by "reinforcing traditional heterosexual gender norms", correct?

And:

In some cases, gender-based harassment may look the same as harassment based on sexual orientation, or homophobic bullying. With the addition of the new grounds of “gender expression” and “gender identity” to the Code, many claims alleging gender-based harassment may also cite discrimination and/or harassment based on gender expression. Depending on the circumstances, it may be appropriate to cite gender identity as well.

The promised link: Policy on preventing sexual and gender-based harassment
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But, do show where the human rights commission, any of them, has previously compelled speech.
I have consistently argued that inclusion of "gender identity or expression" in anti-discrimination and hate propaganda laws does not implicate any issue of compelled speech, any more than inclusion of race, religion, sex or sexual orientation in these laws does.
 
Top