Praise God but don't blame it!

[Reverend Rick]

I don't see it. I've been talking smack about god for years and I haven't suffered any venegance. Seems like a big wuss to me.

OK you second rate frubal whore you........:slap:

 

[Kilgore Trout]

OK you second rate frubal whore you........:slap:

Pfft - I'm a friggin 5 grand a night frubal escort as far your concerned.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Pfft - I'm a friggin 5 grand a night frubal escort as far your concerned.

What you doing Friday night?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What you doing Friday night?

Washing my hair.

 

[JustWondering]

4. God knew ahead of time that they would eat the fruit.

Of course. He created us to eat the fruit. I factored that into step 2.

Here is the thing, who ever said the God is all peaches and cream?

Not I. From what I've read in the Bible I conclude the God of the Bible to be criminally insane.

God is a jealous and vengeful God that should be feared.

Do you believe this is behavior to be revered and emulated?

 

[NeoSeeker]

If the story of Adam and Eve is to be taken literally then here is my logical train of thought on why God is not a purely good being.

1. God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
2. God allows Adam and Eve to eat from the tree enabling them to commit evil acts.
3. Thus God is responsible for creating and bringing evil into the world.

And worst of all, God decides to take revenge on all of A&Es descendants. Talk about vengeful and petty.

The message of the story is that God created us as imperfect beings. God does not like imperfect beings but since he is such a nice guy he'll overlook our imperfection if we jump through hoops to suck up to and worship him.

Saying that humans choose to be sinners is ridiculous. If we are created beings we can only behave in the manner in which we were created to behave. In short, God created us to be sinners. Since God says he hates sin what sense does Genesis make? None.

It would be like someone buying a dog and training it to relief itself on the furniture. Then kicking the dog outside for reliefing itself on the furniture. Someone like that would have to be insane. The only way for the God described in the Bible not to be evil is if he is insane.

If you go along with the "God created human beings" thing, the only conclusion is that they were created not perfect and were given free will to be good or bad. Otherwise what is the point? We can choose, we can learn and improve ourselves or we can become very bad. Who is to say? Certainly not me. I'm just saying if we are going to debate the possibilities, to mean anything, our actions could not be preordained. God will have to take the good with the bad, continue to work with the bad, or in the simplest of terms, as the religious prefer to think, toss the bad ones into Hell on their first go around.

God is a jealous and vengeful God that should be feared.

Serious?

I don't see it. I've been talking smack about god for years and I haven't suffered any venegance. Seems like a big wuss to me.

Just wait until you arrive at the pearly gates and they are locked! :faint:

 

[Reverend Rick]

Do you believe this is behavior to be revered and emulated?

Good question. I am a God fearing person. I don't want to be feared personally so no, I don't want to emulate these qualities.

 

[JustWondering]

Christianity would make more sense and be a lot easier to swallow if God was not made out to be a loving, merciful God. Of course worshipping a saddistic tyrant of a God would not be very appealing and the religion would die out rather quickly. Which is why followers are so desperate to do mental gymnastics to defend God as being pure and good but in the end cannot deny his saddistic and cruel nature (Genocide, favoritism, and straight up claims of being violently jealous).

 

[BruceDLimber]

Meaning no offense, you're quite correct: you missed the point, which was about the relativity of the situation contrasting the creature itself and an interaction with a human! Further, that was only a small part of a much larger and broader discussion.

BTW, we, too, stipulate that everything was created good!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[NeoSeeker]

Meaning no offense, you're quite correct: you missed the point, which was about the relativity of the situation contrasting the creature itself and an interaction with a human! Further, that was only a small part of a much larger and broader discussion.

BTW, we, too, stipulate that everything was created good!

Peace,

Bruce

For lack of a quote, I assume this was directed at me. No offense taken. It seems that a discussion of good vs evil should be focused more on humans and less on animals.

 

[search the scriptures]

justwondering: "Do you believe that people go to hell and burn for all eternity?"

do you choose not to beleive? if so you damn yourself....

 

[JustWondering]

do you choose not to beleive? if so you damn yourself....

I can no more choose to believe in hell than you can choose to believe in invisible carnivorous toilet dwelling stink gnomes. Also, why should I choose one religion over another when none of them provide any evidence that they are credible and worth following?

 

[ButTheCatCameBack]

justwondering: "Do you believe that people go to hell and burn for all eternity?"

do you choose not to beleive? if so you damn yourself....

There is something so monumentally insidious about the idea that a person is punished to a realm of eternal torture for thought-crime that its mind boggling. Particularly in the context of religions that use it as part of claiming a divinely mandated moral high ground.

To say nothing of this idea flying in the face of omniscience....

 

[BruceDLimber]

It seems that a discussion of good vs evil should be focused more on humans and less on animals.

I fully agree given that animals aren't in any position to "sin" or otherwise "commit evil!" The quote in question was basically an analogy.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[NeoSeeker]

I fully agree given that animals aren't in any position to "sin" or otherwise "commit evil!" The quote in question was basically an analogy.

Regards,

Bruce

No problem. I just don't think it presents a strong argument especially for someone trying to figure out this religion thing.
-Dave

 

[ButTheCatCameBack]

For lack of a quote, I assume this was directed at me. No offense taken. It seems that a discussion of good vs evil should be focused more on humans and less on animals.

Not to be a stickler. But technically speaking. Humans ARE animals.

 

[NeoSeeker]

Not to be a stickler. But technically speaking. Humans ARE animals.

Although you are right, moral discussions rarely focus on animals, although I agree there could be a bad dog vs a good dog. Usually the bad dog would be put to sleep. As far as a holy book giving people a basis for determining morality, speaking of snakes or stinging creatures adds nothing of real benefit, analogy or not imo.

 

[ButTheCatCameBack]

Although you are right, moral discussions rarely focus on animals, although I agree there could be a bad dog vs a good dog. Usually the bad dog would be put to sleep. As far as a holy book giving people a basis for determining morality, speaking of snakes or stinging creatures adds nothing of real benefit, analogy or not imo.

See also, "technically speaking."

 

[Madhuri]

Evil did not exist until after the creation brought it into the world. God gave his creation free will, so Adam and Eve were free to choose obedience or disobedience. Just as the angels were, apparently.

I agree that God knew that, eventually, man would sin against Him at some point. But it is also my belief that, knowing this would occur, God planned for the salvation of all mankind from the very beginning.

By all indications, Adam and Eve had a very close relationship with God, and they communicated with each other directly. They knew full well the consequences of eating the fruit, for God had warned them that “In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die.” They allowed themselves to be deceived, and they disobeyed the will of God.

If you take the Genesis account literally, and taking into account the other passages within the scriptures concerning this subject, the exact timeline is unclear. However, I think we can determine the following from the bible:
1. God created everything, and it was very good.
2. Sometime after that, the angels rebelled, Satan being among them
3. Sometime after that, Satan tempted Adam and Eve
So, God did not create Satan, as an evil being. He became evil at some point after creation.

According to the bible, every person is responsible for their own relationship with God; Their own faith, their own obedience, their own actions. Only those who a) do not believe that Jesus is Christ, and b) do not obey, are punished, just like Adam and Eve.

Eve knew God, and she knew the consequences of her disobedience to Him.

Would it be better if we were all forced to serve God?

Hey, I've only just seen this! Sorry about that. Thanks for replying too.

Firstly, if one knows God, how can he/she rebel? I thought the angels did not have free will and that is why God created man. Then again, I think it was a Muslim who told me this. (it can all get very confusing)

You have explained things well, but when I try to see things from the perspective of a loving Creator (which, granted, is not quite possible), I just cannot understand why He would create such a system. I could grasp the logic from the Muslim perspective, which is that God created man specifically because he wants to be loved out of free will rather than by force (which is the case with the angels). But based on your explanation, I take it the reason for creating man is quite different. So what was the reason?

And why did God allow that by the simple mistake of Adam and Eve, all of mankind should suffer?
There is a great difference between those two people and everyone else. The main being that they had a personal and very obvious relationship with God. As you mentioned, they communicated with him, they heard him speak and were given direct instructions. They disobeyed God while being fully aware of His reality.

The rest of us do not have this knowledge of God. We not not have two-way chats with God. Beliefs are based in 'faith' generally. Faith is not knowledge. And so if a person is not a Christian, it is probably because they feel a lack of Christian realisation. So why is the punishment so severe when humans are so ignorant of knowledge? Why should God expect every person to be able to know what is truth? Why then must so many people go to hell or suffer terribly because they could not find truth or because they feel they have found it elsewhere and unfortunately happen to be wrong, which is only discovered when it is too late?

Basically, it seems to me that from a Biblical perspective, this world is incredibly unfair to us. There is so much expectation and such great consequences for getting it wrong. And we are only given 1 lifetime to figure it out!

So based on this, how can we think of the Biblical God as loving, fair or kind? How can we call this system good? It would make more sense if life were a test, where man must choose to be good, to be fair, loving and kind rather than have a specific belief. But that is not the case according to my understanding of the Bible. And that reflects on the character of its God.

 

[NeoSeeker]

See also, "technically speaking."

True again, but for the purposes of a moral discussion I have and still am differentiating between humans and other animals. In other words I hold humans to a higher standard.

Hey, I've only just seen this! Sorry about that. Thanks for replying too.

Firstly, if one knows God, how can he/she rebel? I thought the angels did not have free will and that is why God created man. Then again, I think it was a Muslim who told me this. (it can all get very confusing)

You have explained things well, but when I try to see things from the perspective of a loving Creator (which, granted, is not quite possible), I just cannot understand why He would create such a system. I could grasp the logic from the Muslim perspective, which is that God created man specifically because he wants to be loved out of free will rather than by force (which is the case with the angels). But based on your explanation, I take it the reason for creating man is quite different. So what was the reason?

And why did God allow that by the simple mistake of Adam and Eve, all of mankind should suffer?
There is a great difference between those two people and everyone else. The main being that they had a personal and very obvious relationship with God. As you mentioned, they communicated with him, they heard him speak and were given direct instructions. They disobeyed God while being fully aware of His reality.

The rest of us do not have this knowledge of God. We not not have two-way chats with God. Beliefs are based in 'faith' generally. Faith is not knowledge. And so if a person is not a Christian, it is probably because they feel a lack of Christian realisation. So why is the punishment so severe when humans are so ignorant of knowledge? Why should God expect every person to be able to know what is truth? Why then must so many people go to hell or suffer terribly because they could not find truth or because they feel they have found it elsewhere and unfortunately happen to be wrong, which is only discovered when it is too late?

Basically, it seems to me that from a Biblical perspective, this world is incredibly unfair to us. There is so much expectation and such great consequences for getting it wrong. And we are only given 1 lifetime to figure it out!

So based on this, how can we think of the Biblical God as loving, fair or kind? How can we call this system good? It would make more sense if life were a test, where man must choose to be good, to be fair, loving and kind rather than have a specific belief. But that is not the case according to my understanding of the Bible. And that reflects on the character of its God.

This is my line of reasoning.