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Prayer in Public Schools
- Thread starter I'ken Imagine
- Start date
no, creation should not be outlawed... because it's the basis of new ideas and new products.
but i know, you probably meant creationism. and thinking that creationism should be outlawed means that you favor silencing differing opinions, and that's not scientific. teaching creationism in a science class might be kinda silly, but that doesn't mean that children in public schools shouldn't be exposed to differing viewpoints, considering how the scientific method celebrates multiple hypothesis.
fish dont die in floods, silly.
children learn about a lot of mass murders in schools, and it's important for them to learn about these things because knowledge of their absurdity leads to a greater understanding of compassion and makes it less likely that they be repeated.
if you have american citizens in public schools then it is unacceptable to keep religion out of public school. group prayers do not violate anyone's rights to secular education, provided they are not officiated by the school and required by the administration. a bunch of kids that want to pray for their school before the bell rings does not stomp on the constitution, but keeping them from doing so does. provided a prayer is not mandatory for all students in a classroom setting then it does not violate the constitution and therefore is none of your business. you, in your own time, can educate your kids on the behaviors of others. that doesn't mean that you can abuse the rights of students in order to keep your children away from their practices.Hey if you want say a prayer for yourself go for it please, knock yourself out
outhouse
Atheistically
viewpoints yes
not a religious based myth.
fish dont die in floods, silly.
well lets see, they state rain's came and flooded the world. im going with fresh water. Fresh water will kill most of the slat water species, not all. The fresh water fish would be exposed to brackish water that would kill most of them as well. brackish species possibly would be the only surving fish.
you wonder why i dont like creationism lol
false, children do not. Young adults however do.
wrong, religion has no place in school period
and as long as they keep it to themselves on free time. have at it.
dust1n
Zindīq
As a new member to this forum I'm kind of testing the waters with this one to see whether it can be discussed in a candid and CIVIL manner. I offer my word that I will never use an ad hominem argument against any opponent under any circumstance. I'm completely OK with the U.S. Supreme Court rulings on prayer in our public schools. If you're NOT OK with the law, then I'm interested in discussing it with you. I'm hoping for discussion and NOT drive-by swipes. Fair enough? Possible? I hope so.
My high school got sued over administrative prayer, at rallies and graduations and such.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Kids should be allowed to pray in school as long as it doesn't disrupt the studies of other students, but public schools shouldn't lead/encourage prayer or favor any particular faith. My tax dollars shouldn't be used to promote a religion I don't believe in or agree with.
Oh I see, thanks.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
How exactly does merely claiming not to believe in any deities in any way derogatory or infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others?
lol, pretending a religions viewpoint is not a viewpoint doesn't keep it from being one. can you give me a criteria of what a viewpoint is. all the rules would be great, and then maybe a source, if that's not too much to ask.
who said i was wondering at all?
and we're not talking about creationism, really. we're talking about prayer in schools. you started talking about creationism, probably in an attempt to prove that prayer in schools is a slippery slope toward teaching biblical literalism. if you weren't trying to make that false conclusion seem realistic, then what i wonder is why you even brought up (young earth) creationism and biblical literalism at all. considering neither are necessarily supported by the majority of christians in this country. (and is such an exceedingly separate issue)
public education in the united states is K-12. we're discussing all grade levels within the same context of the constitution.
the establishment of religion has no place in american public schools, correct. religion, however, being a component of culture has it's place in education. as well as mythos. provided the PUBLIC schools aren't making an attempt to ESTABLISH a religion for their students, religion is just as fair game as geometry or literature.
but you said "give them a inch like a simple prayer and they would evolve a prayer only to appeal for those who are in ear shot."
so one is only allowed to participate in group prayer when absolutely nobody outside of the group can hear them? should this policy be extended to political discussions, or differences of opinion altogether?
I think it might be worthwhile to remind people that prayer is allowed in public schools. Before class, after class, if you want to have a Christian fellowship club, of if you want to say Grace in the cafeteria, or if you want to quietly bow your head before taking that math exam, that is all fine and dandy and constitutional. As long as you are not bothering the other students.
What is not allowed is school lead prayer during class time or during any time function where attendance is mandatory.
And this in my opinion is as it should be.
What is not allowed is school lead prayer during class time or during any time function where attendance is mandatory.
And this in my opinion is as it should be.
outhouse
Atheistically
yes it is use google
I said, get your facts right
nope your telling what to
how do you conclude teaching lies from a book written 2000 years ago can even compare with a real education. This is not church, your free to go when your out of school
what part of religion has no place in schools do you not understand??? You want freedom, then use it quiety and keep it to yourself in your own free time.
I also have the freedom to explain every lie and contradiction in the OT, how god not only approves rape, mass murder and slavery but commands it! topped off with how the christian religion has murdered millions in the past by the bibles own testimony plus the priest raping little boys and the church hiding it TO christians murdering abortion doctors, to the christians stance on conterceptives killing millions in africa as we type, as well as the deaths related to poverty due to overpopulation. Lets not forget all the mass murders in REAL history associated with christianity. Plus lets throw in the schools that still teach creationism teaching children to be morons.
what part of religion and myths have no place in school
This whole school prayer issue is a straw man. There was never any legislation to remove prayer from schools. The laws simply removed it from the curriculum.
Any student remains free to pray whenever s/he wants. All the law restricts is staff led, public prayer as a school activity.
This is, by the way, congruent with Christ's instruction that prayer should be kept a private affair.
Any student remains free to pray whenever s/he wants. All the law restricts is staff led, public prayer as a school activity.
This is, by the way, congruent with Christ's instruction that prayer should be kept a private affair.
jmvizanko
Uber Tool
As a new member to this forum I'm kind of testing the waters with this one to see whether it can be discussed in a candid and CIVIL manner. I offer my word that I will never use an ad hominem argument against any opponent under any circumstance. I'm completely OK with the U.S. Supreme Court rulings on prayer in our public schools. If you're NOT OK with the law, then I'm interested in discussing it with you. I'm hoping for discussion and NOT drive-by swipes. Fair enough? Possible? I hope so.
First off, most people on this site are not very nasty, so I wouldn't bother littering a topic with requests to be civil. Most of us, even the people who completely disagree with you, will be civil. Almost all of us are here for the interesting conversations, not to condescendingly insult people.
And I agree with that particular ruling. In especially public schools, people are there from every culture and religion imaginable, so why should we take class time to accommodate certain groups? The universal for them all is that they need to be learning math, science, history etc., and that is the only purpose for school. Sunday school is for the rest, as I am not paying for it with my tax dollars. And there is plenty of time left after school every day for a kid to go home and pray for hours, if they really have the need. And if kids want to spend their class time praying in their head, they have every right to do it. But its a lot more likely they will end up working at McDonald's than giving me a heart transplant if they do so.
Kind of a stupid quote, but: "What our schools need is a moment of science."
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Interesting thread.
I agree with the law as it stands now.
I believe that religion and faith plays a very important part in our lives, even if we are not religious, or are even atheist.
We can't separate religion from history, sociology, literature, science, art, health, government, law or even economics classes! Religion has played a large role in the development of all of those topics,whether we agree with it's impact or not.
Also, religion plays a significant part in many people's daily lives. For instance, I think of Muslim students who believe they should pray several times a day. That belief should be accommodated as much as possible. Three minutes of private prayer isn't going to hurt anyone. Also, any student or group of students who wishes to pray before a meal or a sporting event or whatever - how on earth does that harm anyone? I would be much more worried about a system which infringes on their right to self expression and freedom of religion than I would be worried about someone else hearing or seeing them pray without being forced to participate.
When I am in public and I hear people on their cell phones or conducting business in the line ahead of me, I am "forced" to hear their interactions and transactions but I'm not forced to participate. Now if their business or personal transactions infringe on my rights (such as having to listen to them in a theater during a movie) that's a different matter, but simply overhearing someone in a public place?
If your tolerance level is so low that you can't handle everyday humanity, you've got some pretty big issues!
I agree with the law as it stands now.
I believe that religion and faith plays a very important part in our lives, even if we are not religious, or are even atheist.
We can't separate religion from history, sociology, literature, science, art, health, government, law or even economics classes! Religion has played a large role in the development of all of those topics,whether we agree with it's impact or not.
Also, religion plays a significant part in many people's daily lives. For instance, I think of Muslim students who believe they should pray several times a day. That belief should be accommodated as much as possible. Three minutes of private prayer isn't going to hurt anyone. Also, any student or group of students who wishes to pray before a meal or a sporting event or whatever - how on earth does that harm anyone? I would be much more worried about a system which infringes on their right to self expression and freedom of religion than I would be worried about someone else hearing or seeing them pray without being forced to participate.
When I am in public and I hear people on their cell phones or conducting business in the line ahead of me, I am "forced" to hear their interactions and transactions but I'm not forced to participate. Now if their business or personal transactions infringe on my rights (such as having to listen to them in a theater during a movie) that's a different matter, but simply overhearing someone in a public place?
If your tolerance level is so low that you can't handle everyday humanity, you've got some pretty big issues!
jmvizanko
Uber Tool
Of course the problem with all of that is, where do you draw the line? Its one thing to allow a student to wear a cross necklace, or head scarf, but when it comes to taking up time, that's where the problem lays. My tax dollars go to teach kids math, science, history etc... I don't want to be paying for 3 extra recesses because some Muslim kid has to go prostrate themselves to imaginary beings, when the kid, along with all the other kids, could have been learning an extra equation.
big lolz for not even paying attention.
antiquity means that a book isn't worth studying?
and if it's a public school, you're free to study the bible with your friends during lunch, or have discussions with them about religion, or pray (quietly or aloud). the school is not in a position to stop you, nor should they, considering the constitution.
can you, perhaps, think of a freedom of yours that you would be comfortable staying quiet about? example: you're allowed to carry pieces of paper with you, but you're not allowed to take the paper out in public or ever mention to anyone that you have paper.
haha, let it out.
can we, actually, stop doing this. i dont think we're getting anywhere. unless you really want to read through my post and respond to even whole sentences, rather than cherry-picked fragments.
I'ken Imagine
Fellow Traveler
Yes, most of your remarks match up with my feelings. I have enjoyed this thread.
I have never been prevented, nor have my children been prevented from praying in school. Of course I'm talking about the same kind of praying that some of you have mentioned. And I never felt that the intent of the law was to prevent us. One difference between my children and me, however, is that I can remember when a handful of school teachers DID lead us in prayer. There were one or two occasions where a teacher (may have even been a substitute teacher) asked for a volunteer to come to the front of the class and offer a prayer. We were small enough that in one case the teacher whispered in the ear of the child what to say. Looking back I can fully understand how, say, a Jewish parent would resent a Protestant school teacher doing this or vice versa. These teachers may have merely been hold-outs after the law was upheld by the Supreme Court. Perhaps they felt motivated by their own convictions of what the law meant and perhaps they believed they were saving the children in some manner. And I imagine that to this day it possibly still goes on in a some rural areas where perhaps all the children's parents belong to the very same denomination anyway.
I don't hold it against them. And personally I always felt secure enough (in myself as a young person AND in what I later taught my children at home) that it probably wouldn't have bothered me if my child were to come home from school to tell me about a particular teacher, say a Muslim, a Hindu, a Catholic or whatever leading a prayer. I say that only as far as the impact on my children. I would certainly have raised my eyebrows so to speak and wonder if the principal and the school district would hear about it and take action given the law. And I probably would have watched to see whether there was a pattern and then analyzed it in my mind about whether I should have a talk with said principal, etc. It's unfortunate that we as humans have such a contentious time getting along with each other, but that's the way it is. And of course I know that in many instances there is no "good guy and bad guy." Many times we who think of ourselves as religious are culpable for the perception others get that we force feed our beliefs on others--sometimes it's exactly what we do. In hindsight many times we have sabotaged our own interests.
I have never been prevented, nor have my children been prevented from praying in school. Of course I'm talking about the same kind of praying that some of you have mentioned. And I never felt that the intent of the law was to prevent us. One difference between my children and me, however, is that I can remember when a handful of school teachers DID lead us in prayer. There were one or two occasions where a teacher (may have even been a substitute teacher) asked for a volunteer to come to the front of the class and offer a prayer. We were small enough that in one case the teacher whispered in the ear of the child what to say. Looking back I can fully understand how, say, a Jewish parent would resent a Protestant school teacher doing this or vice versa. These teachers may have merely been hold-outs after the law was upheld by the Supreme Court. Perhaps they felt motivated by their own convictions of what the law meant and perhaps they believed they were saving the children in some manner. And I imagine that to this day it possibly still goes on in a some rural areas where perhaps all the children's parents belong to the very same denomination anyway.
I don't hold it against them. And personally I always felt secure enough (in myself as a young person AND in what I later taught my children at home) that it probably wouldn't have bothered me if my child were to come home from school to tell me about a particular teacher, say a Muslim, a Hindu, a Catholic or whatever leading a prayer. I say that only as far as the impact on my children. I would certainly have raised my eyebrows so to speak and wonder if the principal and the school district would hear about it and take action given the law. And I probably would have watched to see whether there was a pattern and then analyzed it in my mind about whether I should have a talk with said principal, etc. It's unfortunate that we as humans have such a contentious time getting along with each other, but that's the way it is. And of course I know that in many instances there is no "good guy and bad guy." Many times we who think of ourselves as religious are culpable for the perception others get that we force feed our beliefs on others--sometimes it's exactly what we do. In hindsight many times we have sabotaged our own interests.
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I think that current law is pretty clear about where to draw the line - school sponsorship of any religion is where we draw the line.
No one is talking about you "paying for three extra recesses" in order to accommodate the religious practices of a handful of students.
Furthermore, I think that protecting religious freedom is at least as important as learning "one extra equation," - probably more important.
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jmvizanko
Uber Tool
You still didn't respond to the issue of time. Do you think that public schools should be dedicating time to the religious needs of their students? I mean, allowing them to skip out of class with parental permission is one thing, which I still don't think should even be allowed. But actual class time? That would make me very angry.
