Prayer in Public Schools

[Storm]

No organized prayer should be allowed in public schools period. It's against the constitution.

That's a bit extreme. Religious students should be allowed to form clubs and the like. It should go without saying that such organizations should be on their own time.

 

[darkendless]

That's a bit extreme. Religious students should be allowed to form clubs and the like. It should go without saying that such organizations should be on their own time.

That is what free time is for.

 

[Storm]

That is what free time is for.

I said that.

 

[jmvizanko]

That's a bit extreme. Religious students should be allowed to form clubs and the like. It should go without saying that such organizations should be on their own time.

I'll second that.

 

[Kathryn]

You still didn't respond to the issue of time. Do you think that public schools should be dedicating time to the religious needs of their students? I mean, allowing them to skip out of class with parental permission is one thing, which I still don't think should even be allowed. But actual class time? That would make me very angry.

I am the parent of five children (most grown now and turning out quite nicely if I do say so myself!). Personally, I would be more angry if a school infringed on my children's rights or impeded my rights as a parent to encourage my children to practice their faith openly than I would be if one of their classmates was excused for five minutes to go pray in a corner or out in the hallway.

 

[jmvizanko]

I am the parent of five children (most grown now and turning out quite nicely if I do say so myself!). Personally, I would be more angry if a school infringed on my children's rights or impeded my rights as a parent to encourage my children to practice their faith openly than I would be if one of their classmates was excused for five minutes to go pray in a corner or out in the hallway.

And I have absolutely no problem with a child being excused to pray, so long as it is not taking up a significant percentage of their schooling time. Because if a significant amount of time is involved, than we are talking about harm that starts to enter the same neglect spectrum of parents who don't allow medical care to be administered to their children because of religion. I would hope their parents would be made aware of the praying behavior, at the very least though, so they can make the judgment call about how their children's educational time is being spent.

Actual class time for everybody being interrupted because of specific beliefs is an entirely different matter though, and IMO completely unacceptable both logically and constitutionally.

 

[Kathryn]

And I have absolutely no problem with a child being excused to pray, so long as it is not taking up a significant percentage of their schooling time. Because if a significant amount of time is involved, than we are talking about harm that starts to enter the same neglect spectrum of parents who don't allow medical care to be administered to their children because of religion. I would hope their parents would be made aware of the praying behavior, at the very least though, so they can make the judgment call about how their children's educational time is being spent.

Actual class time for everybody being interrupted because of specific beliefs is an entirely different matter though, and IMO completely unacceptable both logically and constitutionally.

Yes, but I don't think anyone's talking about that particular strawman. I'm certainly not.

 

[jmvizanko]

Yes, but I don't think anyone's talking about that particular strawman. I'm certainly not.

I don't see how its a strawman. We are talking generically about school prayer, and at one time there was class time devoted to it. It may be the case that few people actually would still stand for that sort of thing, and I'd hope so (although I'm sure the numbers would still make me sad) but its still part of the argument. And its where I draw the line, and necessary for me to state my opinion.

Could you elaborate on this "strawman" you speak of?

Edit: You specifically said you don't think 3 minutes of prayer is going to hurt anyone. What 3 minutes are you specifically talking about? 3 minutes in an actual classroom? Because where the hell do you get off talking of strawmen then?

 

[Skwim]

If a school district allows non-curriculum clubs it must allow student led religious clubs, as well as gay/lesbian support groups, which is a real thorn in the side of some of those who lobbied for the inclusion of religious clubs in the law.

Prayer in public schools is permissible by all individuals, either alone or in groups. However, student group prayer cannot be initiated by anyone other than the students, and cannot be presided over by any school staff. It can be neither encouraged or discouraged by the school or its staff.

"Among other things, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, the lunch hour, or other non-instructional time to the same extent that they may engage in nonreligious activities."
source
​

 

[Storm]

If a school district allows non-curriculum clubs it must allow student led religious clubs, as well as gay/lesbian support groups, which is a real thorn in the side of some of those who lobbied for the inclusion of religious clubs in the law.

Prayer in public schools is permissible by all individuals, either alone or in groups. However, student group prayer cannot be initiated by anyone other than the students, and cannot be presided over by any school staff. It can be neither encouraged or discouraged by the school or its staff.

"Among other things, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, the lunch hour, or other non-instructional time to the same extent that they may engage in nonreligious activities."
source
​

I think this is as it should be.

 

[Kathryn]

I don't see how its a strawman. We are talking generically about school prayer, and at one time there was class time devoted to it. It may be the case that few people actually would still stand for that sort of thing, and I'd hope so (although I'm sure the numbers would still make me sad) but its still part of the argument. And its where I draw the line, and necessary for me to state my opinion.

Could you elaborate on this "strawman" you speak of?

Edit: You specifically said you don't think 3 minutes of prayer is going to hurt anyone. What 3 minutes are you specifically talking about? 3 minutes in an actual classroom? Because where the hell do you get off talking of strawmen then?

It is expressly against the law for a public school to force any student to participate in a religious activity, so I don't expect anyone to be forced to participate in any sort of prayer activity - for 3 seconds or 3 minutes.

We are not talking about those who may BREAK this law (though it is hard to imagine any classroom being forced to participate in any prayer in this day and age, I guess it could happen, but the topic at hand is the existing LAW, not the possibility that someone may break that law).

But let's talk about a student praying for three minutes individually. How is that your concern? How does that hurt you? I already said that if a student's faith mandates that she pray for a couple of minutes a time or two throughout the school day, that if this particular prayer requires her to kneel or pray obviously some sort of way, she should remove herself from the classroom. In fact, this should be done between classes, during free time, lunch time, etc.

So - what's your problem with this?

 

[Revoltingest]

It is expressly against the law for a public school to force any student to participate in a religious activity, so I don't expect anyone to be forced to participate in any sort of prayer activity - for 3 seconds or 3 minutes.

But let's talk about a student praying for three minutes individually. How is that your concern? How does that hurt you? I already said that if a student's faith mandates that she pray for a couple of minutes a time or two throughout the school day, that if this particular prayer requires her to kneel or pray obviously some sort of way, she should remove herself from the classroom. In fact, this should be done between classes, during free time, lunch time, etc.

Ahhhh, I remember the good ole days in South Lyon MI elementary schools. We had compulsory daily prayer
(Xtian only, of course), lead by the teachers. Even the People's Republic Of Ann Arbor had the non-original
version of the Pledge Of Allegiance with the embedded religious oath. Thank God those days are gone!

As for voluntary prayer, I don't even demand that they leave the classroom (presuming they're not disruptive).
In fact, I find them quite entertaining.

 

[Kathryn]

Sure - that used to be the norm in this nation which was (and in fact, still is) predominately Christian. But that sort of thing is now against the law - as it should be in public schools.

You can only remember it because you're so old, Revoltingest.

 

[Revoltingest]

You can only remember it because you're so old, Revoltingest.

Do you know that a walker, properly wielded, can be a most fell weapon against you young whippersnappers?

 

[jmvizanko]

It is expressly against the law for a public school to force any student to participate in a religious activity, so I don't expect anyone to be forced to participate in any sort of prayer activity - for 3 seconds or 3 minutes.

We are not talking about those who may BREAK this law (though it is hard to imagine any classroom being forced to participate in any prayer in this day and age, I guess it could happen, but the topic at hand is the existing LAW, not the possibility that someone may break that law).

But let's talk about a student praying for three minutes individually. How is that your concern? How does that hurt you? I already said that if a student's faith mandates that she pray for a couple of minutes a time or two throughout the school day, that if this particular prayer requires her to kneel or pray obviously some sort of way, she should remove herself from the classroom. In fact, this should be done between classes, during free time, lunch time, etc.

So - what's your problem with this?

As I've already stated, I have no problem with this. But I don't think you made it abundantly clear you were not talking about a specific break in class time for prayer use for anyone. And I wasnt necessarily implying that is what you meant, just attacking that idea in general. Because I see that as implying that that is something everybody needs and should be doing, something not every parent has hammered into their kid's head, despite the kid not being able to have a well thought out personal understanding of their parents reasons to even believe in the first place.

So I dont see anyone singing if I only had a brain.

 

[Muffled]

As a new member to this forum I'm kind of testing the waters with this one to see whether it can be discussed in a candid and CIVIL manner. I offer my word that I will never use an ad hominem argument against any opponent under any circumstance. I'm completely OK with the U.S. Supreme Court rulings on prayer in our public schools. If you're NOT OK with the law, then I'm interested in discussing it with you. I'm hoping for discussion and NOT drive-by swipes. Fair enough? Possible? I hope so.

I have no problem with any religius activity in school as long as it isn't government or teacher mandated.

I wish I could have kept my grandkinds from the atheistic approach to the origin of the species. I didn't have the money to send them to christian school.

 

[Kathryn]

As I've already stated, I have no problem with this. But I don't think you made it abundantly clear you were not talking about a specific break in class time for prayer use for anyone. And I wasnt necessarily implying that is what you meant, just attacking that idea in general. Because I see that as implying that that is something everybody needs and should be doing, something not every parent has hammered into their kid's head, despite the kid not being able to have a well thought out personal understanding of their parents reasons to even believe in the first place.

So I dont see anyone singing if I only had a brain.

I don't see how it would hurt other students if a particular student was excused for three minutes of classtime, for that matter, and I don't see how that would harm you or anyone else, even if that particular student missed "an extra equation."

I also don't see how that would imply that everyone should be doing it.

I also don't see how you can claim that kids don't understand the basics of the practice of their faith - obviously some kids do and some kids don't, and frankly, that's none of your business or mine. That is the business of each particular child and his or her parents, not the school's call, unless students are not able to grasp their lesson plan.

 

[Danmac]

From my recollection, when God was permitted in the classroom, the problems were chewing gum, running in the hallways, and in a worse case scenario, smoking in the bathrooms. But in those days an inch slab of wood on the seat of the pants quickly corrected any behavioral misconduct. Today since God has been removed schools are becoming war zones. Since my work takes me into several different schools, I have had the opportunity to witness firsthand the disrespect that our teachers are subjected to, and their hands are tied for the most part as to how they may correct the problem. Take Indianapolis for example, the students are no longer sent to sit in the hall when they disrupt class, they are sent to jail cells within the school. Yes, that,s right, our elementary, middle, and high schools now have jail cells. That may be politically incorrect. We will call them time out rooms. Not only that, but these schools now require a police station within the schools, and a constant police presence to squelch the violence. Yes that is correct, our hall monitors don't carry pencils and papers to take names any more they carry guns. Yes removing god's presence from schools have done wonders in making our schools better places of learning. That is if you can make it out alive. And you aint seen nothing yet.

 

[Revoltingest]

From my recollection, when God was permitted in the classroom, the problems were chewing gum, running in the hallways, and in a worse case scenario, smoking in the bathrooms. But in those days an inch slab of wood on the seat of the pants quickly corrected any behavioral misconduct. Today since God has been removed schools are becoming war zones. Since my work takes me into several different schools, I have had the opportunity to witness firsthand the disrespect that our teachers are subjected to, and their hands are tied for the most part as to how they may correct the problem. Take Indianapolis for example, the students are no longer sent to sit in the hall when they disrupt class, they are sent to jail cells within the school. Yes, that,s right, our elementary, middle, and high schools now have jail cells. That may be politically incorrect. We will call them time out rooms. Not only that, but these schools now require a police station within the schools, and a constant police presence to squelch the violence. Yes that is correct, our hall monitors don't carry pencils and papers to take names any more they carry guns. Yes removing god's presence from schools have done wonders in making our schools better places of learning. That is if you can make it out alive. And you aint seen nothing yet.

We once didn't let them negroes in our schools either...could integration be the problem?
Correlation isn't necessarily causation. The lack of God seems unimportant. I'd blame cultural changes & restrictions on disciplinary methods.

 

[I'ken Imagine]

We once didn't let them negroes in our schools either...could integration be the problem? Correlation isn't necessarily causation. The lack of God seems unimportant. I'd blame cultural changes & restrictions on disciplinary methods.

That is important. We all observe the breakdown in social behaviors by (many) students in the public schools. But if we look closely we also see fine moral examples of teachers who live according to their religious beliefs--alongside the poor examples of some other teachers. I don't perceive that the problem is that God is no longer in the schools. (Personally I doubt that God ever was in the schools, praying didn't make it so when one compares behavior with lip service.) I suspect that the behavior of students in school mirrors the behavior of those same students in their homes and to some degree is based on what they learn at home. I suspect that it also mirrors the behavior of our society.

I know that one retort to what I've just written may be that perhaps God is no longer in our society either. But the behaviors we lament today did not appear suddenly after 1963.