Prayer: The Miracle of a Literal Super-Power

[Grumpuss]

I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that prayer has ever actually worked. I can 'pray' that I get a job I've applied for and when I end up getting it conclude that God answered my 'prayer'. But of course that doesn't rule out the possibility that I might have just been the most qualified person to apply and would have gotten the job whether I 'prayed' or not.

This isn't how prayer works.

I can understand that you would "contemplate both sides" because you're not a believer, why would I, I believe God does exist? Why would I want to contemplate what things mean if He didn't exist? That would be questioning my faith, and I don't question my faith!

Perhaps he wants you to make his argument for him, so he can jump out behind a tree and yell, "Gotcha!".

 

[Grumpuss]

I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that prayer has ever actually worked. I can 'pray' that I get a job I've applied for and when I end up getting it conclude that God answered my 'prayer'. But of course that doesn't rule out the possibility that I might have just been the most qualified person to apply and would have gotten the job whether I 'prayed' or not.

This isn't how prayer works. You don't wish for things for yourself and then judge God, based on his action or inaction, as interpreted whether you think the prayer was answered.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I can understand that you would "contemplate both sides" because you're not a believer, why would I, I believe God does exist? Why would I want to contemplate what things mean if He didn't exist? That would be questioning my faith, and I don't question my faith!

Interesting... I contemplate what various aspects of the world and events would allow one to possibly infer about God quite often. However, in no way does this ever result in my "questioning" my atheism Quite the opposite, in fact. Most often, the nature of God's involvement in most things (when viewing them while pretending He exists) only ever strengthens or solidifies my atheism. That you fear the same sort of exercise from your perspective might undermine your beliefs probably means something... not sure what... just interesting.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Perhaps he wants you to make his argument for him, so he can jump out behind a tree and yell, "Gotcha!".

And what is my "argument?"

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Did I ever say I believe in a literal translation? I find it curious that people are quick to assume all Christians are Young Earth Creationists or believe in a strict literal translation. There are as many variants of Christian belief of the Bible, as there are different types of atheist/agnostic.

There's a theory that the whole of the Book of Esther is just an allegory and not based at all on anyone whoever lived. Does that invalidate the message?

Sure, I've been around long enough to know that "Christian" and "God" can have a gazillion different meanings whether used in isolation or combined. TBH your opening post sounded like something a Young Earther would say, prayer as a "super power" is not what I'd expect to hear from a more liberal minded Christian. The efficacy of prayer has never been demonstrated in scientific studies (being prayed for doesn't enhance your survival chances), pretty sure you know that, so not so sure why you would claim prayer as a super power.
As for the Book of Esther, oh come on, it is the only book of the bible where a woman takes centre stage, don't relegate it to "allegory" status. There are no serious biblical scholars who would say 1st Timothy was actually written by Paul, it is a forgery. Have a go at 1st Timothy before you have a go at Esther!

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You praying or having a more open mind. Fortunately for you, you're probably wrong.

Who cares if I pray? It hardly seems pertinent. I certainly don't care if you do. As stated many times, I'm calling you on your statement about 'clearly evident facts'.

It seems like you care a lot more than two hoots, given the amount of text you've spent naysaying others about it on this thread.

Just naysaying you, actually. And not about your personal belief in prayer, but on your position regarding 'self-evident facts'. Surely that's not hard to understand at this point?

You don't believe because it's not clear enough because prayer doesn't work because you don't believe. Etc.

Again, I don't pray, so I can't assess its success on a personal level. You do realise there is literature on this topic though, right? In any case, if you want to say you believe prayer is wonderful, I'd be fine with it. That's simply not what you're saying. My point isn't about prayer, it's about the complete lack of justification for presenting it as clearly Self-evident', or factual. These are your opinions.

I'm sure you bothered to ask before you passed judgment on them.

This is my favourite part of your whole response...I'm not the one passing judgement on them. I'm not the one suggesting they should be happy in their situation, or that it would improve if they just prayed harder. You are.
These people were victims of brutality, murder and genocide.

Or the Croatian ones. Or the Bosnian ones.

Yes, the "Bosnians" also engaged in war crimes, under General Dudakovic and others...

Bosnia opens trial of Muslims for war crimes

Of course they did. It's one of the most dehumanizing conflicts in recent history. It also featured high levels of religiousness amongst the effected populations, and extreme levels of civilian harm. Does this somehow help make your point? I'd be interested to know how.

I only required 1 thing, because that was the point: conscious, intelligent thought is better than not.

I'd love for you to give me a list of some of these philosophers. You are (once again) completely overstating your opinion as 'fact'.

You win the goalpost-moving competition. Congratulations.

Sorry, your deflections are becoming ridiculously obvious. To clarify;

You said : Mother's don't decide life sucks when their babies die, they're instead grateful for the time they got to spend with them.
I posted evidence suggesting they quite often decides life sucks.

No goalpost moving.

What was your point again? Something elitist?

You're not even trying now. You can deflect better than that. My point was that I've lived in the type of situations being discussed, and his views we're not egregious based on my experiences. Yours completely smack of cultural superiority, and are somewhat like a modern take on manifest destiny.
In simple terms, you can throw around clai.s of elitism all you like, but we are not the ones judging people in awful situations.

And yet- people prayed and were happy. But from your 40,000 ft view (or whatever- 2 week stay), you unilaterally decided that they were miserable and pathetic. Because they couldn't eat Big Macs or fire up a Playstation or have access to Advil on-demand.

This is actually the point at which you need to look in a mirror and try to work out why you're acting the way you are. Some honest self reflection would be great.

I lived (not backpacked, or whatever) in one of the most remote areas of the planet. I taught there. There was no electricity (part time generator only), no hot water, no TV, no radio, no internet. There was 1 phone, and I was out of communication with my family back home for months due to the telephone pole being burnt down during political riots.

Big Macs...I mean, honestly, you're talking complete crap.

Some people were happy. I was the one that said that, if you'll recall. There were MASSIVE levels of alcoholism, domestic violence, crime, AIDS, etc. There were lots of people who were not happy. Or were happy on days their husband didn't beat them. Or on days they had food.

Your whole posting on this subject smacks of cultural superiority, yet you throw around accusations that other people are ignorant, latte-sipping elitists.

Shame on you.

 

[Grumpuss]

And what is my "argument?"

Uhh- His argument for him, I said. Which was:

I can understand that you would "contemplate both sides" because you're not a believer, why would I, I believe God does exist? Why would I want to contemplate what things mean if He didn't exist? That would be questioning my faith, and I don't question my faith!

 

[Grumpuss]

Sure, I've been around long enough to know that "Christian" and "God" can have a gazillion different meanings whether used in isolation or combined. TBH your opening post sounded like something a Young Earther would say, prayer as a "super power" is not what I'd expect to hear from a more liberal minded Christian. The efficacy of prayer has never been demonstrated in scientific studies (being prayed for doesn't enhance your survival chances), pretty sure you know that, so not so sure why you would claim prayer as a super power.

I didn't realize there was a connection between the YEC crowd and noting the power of prayer. Do you have a similar confirmed association between people who wear crosses and Christian Science faith-healing belief?

As for the Book of Esther, oh come on, it is the only book of the bible where a woman takes centre stage, don't relegate it to "allegory" status. There are no serious biblical scholars who would say 1st Timothy was actually written by Paul, it is a forgery. Have a go at 1st Timothy before you have a go at Esther!

I didn't relegate anything. Esther has been suspected for a long time of being nothing more than an allegory, there being no other historical basis for the Esther character. Claiming it shouldn't matter because Esther is some kind of feminist folk hero isn't really the basis for debate.

Esther Expositor's Bible Commentary
Book of Esther - Wikipedia

 

[Grumpuss]

Who cares if I pray? It hardly seems pertinent. I certainly don't care if you do. As stated many times, I'm calling you on your statement about 'clearly evident facts'.

So don't then. No one is forcing you to do anything. Be miserable if you want.

Just naysaying you, actually. And not about your personal belief in prayer, but on your position regarding 'self-evident facts'. Surely that's not hard to understand at this point?

Really? Seems to be a thinly veiled attack on Christianity. I wonder why you're so full of disdain for people that you've never met.

Again, I don't pray, so I can't assess its success on a personal level. You do realise there is literature on this topic though, right? In any case, if you want to say you believe prayer is wonderful, I'd be fine with it. That's simply not what you're saying. My point isn't about prayer, it's about the complete lack of justification for presenting it as clearly Self-evident', or factual. These are your opinions.

You should try prayer. Or be silent about what others say about it. Anything else is just hateful conduct- "trolling" I'm sure you call it. Your mother wouldn't be proud of you for such conduct.

This is my favourite part of your whole response...I'm not the one passing judgement on them. I'm not the one suggesting they should be happy in their situation, or that it would improve if they just prayed harder. You are.
These people were victims of brutality, murder and genocide.

I forgot: you met some people once in a tough situation, but are content to slam their happiness and prayer as "stupid". Hey, the Yugoslavian civil war is over- was that due to prayer or your dad? I'm sure you have an answer you're 100% sure of, and those people had theirs.

Of course they did. It's one of the most dehumanizing conflicts in recent history. It also featured high levels of religiousness amongst the effected populations, and extreme levels of civilian harm. Does this somehow help make your point? I'd be interested to know how.

It was your example. Make your own argument.

I'd love for you to give me a list of some of these philosophers. You are (once again) completely overstating your opinion as 'fact'.

Nah- you barged in with your ridiculous "give me 3 examples" nonsense, when all I said was "conscious, intelligent thought is better than not." You know of some philosophers who favor stupid, prejudiced opinion over thinking for themselves, you list them. Once again: it's your argument, not mine.

Sorry, your deflections are becoming ridiculously obvious. To clarify;

You said : Mother's don't decide life sucks when their babies die, they're instead grateful for the time they got to spend with them.
I posted evidence suggesting they quite often decides life sucks.

No goalpost moving.

Rather an egregious misquote. I said that mothers with babies that die quickly were thankful for the time they had, not give up and decide that life sucks.

Miraculously, they continue to live and be blessed with more children. I await your next mischaracterizations.

You're not even trying now. You can deflect better than that. My point was that I've lived in the type of situations being discussed, and his views we're not egregious based on my experiences. Yours completely smack of cultural superiority, and are somewhat like a modern take on manifest destiny.
In simple terms, you can throw around clai.s of elitism all you like, but we are not the ones judging people in awful situations.

Sounds like something an elitist would say. I'll pray for you.

This is actually the point at which you need to look in a mirror and try to work out why you're acting the way you are. Some honest self reflection would be great.

It's not about me. It's not even about you and your salvation. No need for you to launch a crusade here- if you don't like the message, feel free not to participate.

I lived (not backpacked, or whatever) in one of the most remote areas of the planet. I taught there. There was no electricity (part time generator only), no hot water, no TV, no radio, no internet. There was 1 phone, and I was out of communication with my family back home for months due to the telephone pole being burnt down during political riots.

Ok, I'll play along. What did you teach these people- what subject(s)? You were the wise benevolent white guy, come to tell them about the wonder(s) of...?

Big Macs...I mean, honestly, you're talking complete crap.

My apologies. Was it Chipotle taco bowls?

Some people were happy. I was the one that said that, if you'll recall. There were MASSIVE levels of alcoholism, domestic violence, crime, AIDS, etc. There were lots of people who were not happy. Or were happy on days their husband didn't beat them. Or on days they had food.

And HOW did you determine that they weren't happy? Did you conduct a poll? You didn't grow up there, you didn't speak the language or know the history. But you were eager to overlay your value system upon others.

Your whole posting on this subject smacks of cultural superiority, yet you throw around accusations that other people are ignorant, latte-sipping elitists.

Shame on you.

No, just you, baby. You're the elitist.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I didn't realize there was a connection between the YEC crowd and noting the power of prayer. Do you have a similar confirmed association between people who wear crosses and Christian Science faith-healing belief?

No, but prayer as a "super power" suggests it is a lot more successful than it actually is, it is the sort of hyperbolic language I'd expect from a literalist more than a liberal, that is all I am saying.

I didn't relegate anything. Esther has been suspected for a long time of being nothing more than an allegory, there being no other historical basis for the Esther character. Claiming it shouldn't matter because Esther is some kind of feminist folk hero isn't really the basis for debate.

Esther Expositor's Bible Commentary
Book of Esther - Wikipedia

What I meant was that in a book written by men (mostly unpleasant misogynistic men in my view) it seems a shame that Esther is regarded as fiction, while every other character in the book is supposedly "historic". I think the whole bible is a fiction Grumps, so it doesn't really bother me that much either way I suppose, I think Esther is one of the more readable books in the bible though. You didn't address my point about the authenticity of 1st Timothy. Do you think that is devalued as it is a forgery?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

So don't then. No one is forcing you to do anything. Be miserable if you want.

Happily, I'm not miserable! You know you're kinda passive aggressive, right?

Really? Seems to be a thinly veiled attack on Christianity. I wonder why you're so full of disdain for people that you've never met.

Believe it or not (and I'll assume you won't based on recent posts) I have plenty of Christian friends. Some are pretty firm in their beliefs, and at least 2 believe that I'll literally burn in hell when I die, no matter how well I live, due to my non-belief. My initial posts in this thread weren't even in response to you, or your OP.

You should try prayer. Or be silent about what others say about it. Anything else is just hateful conduct- "trolling" I'm sure you call it. Your mother wouldn't be proud of you for such conduct.

You are...once again...trying to pass off your opinion as fact. It doesn't work. I'm not 'trolling', I am here quite openly and honestly suggesting that you are using words like 'self-evident' and 'fact' when you are clearly simply expressing an opinion. I wasn't aware you knew my mother. After all, you have repeatedly admonished others, or suggested that you can't read minds. Basically, you appear to be completely hypocritical, to be honest.

I forgot: you met some people once in a tough situation, but are content to slam their happiness and prayer as "stupid". Hey, the Yugoslavian civil war is over- was that due to prayer or your dad? I'm sure you have an answer you're 100% sure of, and those people had theirs.

I think you are confusing different posters. To clarify;
1) I lived in a tough area, not 'met some people once'. Once again, you are misusing language in an attempt to paint a different picture. Whilst I guess some might see this as a clever debating tactic, it generally needs to be less ham-fisted that this to be effective.
2) My dad has never been to Europe. You're confusing me with @Nietzsche. We are quite different, and have entirely different life experiences.
3) I never called prayer stupid. Not just in this thread, but actually never. In my life.

So basically, you just made up that whole paragraph. Congrats.

It was your example. Make your own argument.

Nup. It was @Nietzsche 's example, and your response to it was arrogant enough I felt I should respond. But sure. My argument is that thinking prayer could make people happy during the various Yugoslav Wars is the height of arrogance and cultural superiority.

Nah- you barged in with your ridiculous "give me 3 examples" nonsense, when all I said was "conscious, intelligent thought is better than not." You know of some philosophers who favor stupid, prejudiced opinion over thinking for themselves, you list them. Once again: it's your argument, not mine.

That's the thing, though. It's not. You said (and I'll quote rather than paraphrase inaccurately the way you seem to prefer);

Most philosophers would disagree. For someone to observe and label things as "misery", "famine" or "cancer", it requires conscious, intelligent thought. None of that is possible without being alive in the first place. Mothers with terminally ill infants invariably are thankful for the brief moments their have with those children. They don't, as you might suggest, go sour and decide that life sucks.

So yeah. You said most philosophers support your claim. I asked you to name three. You responded by saying you wouldn't, since it was my argument. You'll find it easier to remain clear if you just post what you think, instead of trying to 'win' or whatever.

Rather an egregious misquote. I said that mothers with babies that die quickly were thankful for the time they had, not give up and decide that life sucks.

I posted it above. You said they were invariably thankful. Do you understand the import of the word 'invariably', and how it relates to you continual habit of posting your opinion as fact? You later went to say;

Miraculously, they continue to live and be blessed with more children. I await your next mischaracterizations.

Feel free to address the article I posted in response demonstrating souring rates of death amongst mothers who have suffered the pain of infant mortality. Or tell them they should pray and be happy. Whichever.

Sounds like something an elitist would say. I'll pray for you.

Elitists would tell you not to judge people in awful situations? Exactly how do you define 'elitist', apart from being a word you like to use to try and demean people who disagree with you. I'm genuinely interested.

It's not about me. It's not even about you and your salvation. No need for you to launch a crusade here- if you don't like the message, feel free not to participate.

Crusade? Hardly. You call things self-evident facts when they are not, I'll call bull. Pretty simple. You should read the OP if you want to see some proselytising.

Ok, I'll play along. What did you teach these people- what subject(s)? You were the wise benevolent white guy, come to tell them about the wonder(s) of...?

Numeracy and literacy. I was in a single teacher school, population 13, ages between 5 and 15.

My apologies. Was it Chipotle taco bowls?

So...where I lived, during hurricane season we lived on mostly tinned meat (bully beef and mackerel) and rice. That caused some pretty old school health issues amongst us, and even a good old-fashioned death when we tried to get a boat through for supplies at one point. When it wasn't hurricane season, I ate some of the best seafood you could ever imagine. So let's say 'No, no frigging chipotle taco bowls'.

And HOW did you determine that they weren't happy? Did you conduct a poll? You didn't grow up there, you didn't speak the language or know the history. But you were eager to overlay your value system upon others.

You're just freelancing on things you haven't experienced at this point, all the while trying to call others out for doing the same.
There was no 'language'. There were over 800. And yes, they were distinct languages, not dialects. So the locals also didn't know the languages (most of which didn't have names) nor the history of the various peoples. At best, they had their own histories passed down orally. English was an official language, and the one I taught in, but over time I became competent enough in one of the 2 other official languages.

I determined they weren't happy when they told me. Believe it or not, I made some friends amongst the locals, played basketball with them on a concrete court they had. And no, I'm not talking about 'I once bounced a ball with someone, so now I think I understand them'.
I spent time there, and I spent time with them. How the hell else?

Are you so desperate to believe they romantic notions about tribal life?

Meet the proud rapists

Fact file: The AIDS problem in Papua New Guinea

Witch Hunting in Papua New Guinea

Papua New Guinea | Oxfam Australia

Is Papua New Guinea Really Poor? - KTF

No, just you, baby. You're the elitist.

Because I think you misrepresent your opinion as fact? Or because I have an opinion that's different to yours? Or because I've never experienced first hand what it's like to live in a truly third world country, or seen the amazing effect that massively high levels of Christianity and Christian prayer have in terms of societal change when unsupported by economic reform, freedom from violence, or gender equity?

 

[Grumpuss]

No, but prayer as a "super power" suggests it is a lot more successful than it actually is, it is the sort of hyperbolic language I'd expect from a literalist more than a liberal, that is all I am saying.

Except it's capable of some astonishing feats. Miracles, some would say.

What I meant was that in a book written by men (mostly unpleasant misogynistic men in my view) it seems a shame that Esther is regarded as fiction, while every other character in the book is supposedly "historic". I think the whole bible is a fiction Grumps, so it doesn't really bother me that much either way I suppose, I think Esther is one of the more readable books in the bible though. You didn't address my point about the authenticity of 1st Timothy. Do you think that is devalued as it is a forgery?

It would be a shame. Again, the historicity of Esther isn't nearly as important, especially to me, as the message it conveys.

 

[Serpent Child]

It's well-recognized that there are many things in our collective universe that cannot be adequately explained by science.

Whether or not you follow an organized religion and have been blessed with the feeling of God's love, you will know that experience of deep meaning and understanding upon witnessing a birth or seeing a perfect sunrise/sunset.

Communing with God provides a special connection to our universe and eliminating the awful feelings of confusion and loneliness that the lost and soulless are cursed with. There is ample evidence that people who pray regularly live longer, are happier and are more free from demon curses of drug abuse and sexual perversion.

Behold the recent story of a pastor brought back from the brink of certain death, only by the prayer of those around the world that loved her:

Miracle Healing, Released by the Power of Prayer, Touches Comatose Pastor on the Verge of Death

Prayer is a literal super-power that can heal wounds, save lives and reverse fortune. When you pray, do you expect that God will hear your prayers and answer them in His own way, or do you do so, "just in case"? If you used to pray, but have stopped later in life, do you make the distinction between praying super-powers for yourself and others versus fantasy superpowers such as Spider-man or Aquaman possess? To me, it is wondrous that we have such a tool at our disposal, yet sad that we do not make more frequent use of it; if more people prayed regularly, there would be less war, famine, deviance and strife afflicting our beautiful world.

"Prayer" simply is telepathic communication with Satan and the Gods/Goddesses of Hell in my faith, I agree that prayer is powerful. Thoughts are energy. This is also why many think that when thousands, millions and billions of people pray for something it may actually happen as all of that combined thought-energy is very powerful.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Except it's capable of some astonishing feats. Miracles, some would say.

But this has never been demonstrated to be true, certainly not in scientific study, even one by the hugely biased Discovery Institute failed to demonstrate that praying for sick people makes a difference compared to "natural" recovery rates. People get better, cancers go into remission, sometimes people literally come back from the dead without a supernatural agent being invoked, correct? The time to believe prayer might help to save a dying human being is when it has been demonstrated to be effective I'd say.

It would be a shame. Again, the historicity of Esther isn't nearly as important, especially to me, as the message it conveys.

Still waiting for your opinion about 1st Timothy! TBH, if you don't want to comment, that is fine. I'm intending to start a thread on the historicity and/or authorship of the bible sometime soon.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Uhh- His argument for him, I said. Which was:

I see. I suppose I didn't "get it" because, juxtaposed against the yway I use the argument from assuming the "other side" is true has absolutely nothing to do with arguing "for" theists, or making theists arguments for them. Entirely the opposite, actually.

So, perhaps you should try branching out, probe your knowledge of what it might be like to be a non-beliver, find the holes in the stances taken within the position(s) held, and gather together thoughtful arguments that prove the errors of those arenas of thought. Although plenty have tried before you, I suppose... I have to admit that I haven't seen anything compelling, or even very sensical, from that angle to date.

 

[columbus]

It's really very sad how people want to pass blame and judgment to God for the way the world is, when He said,

Genesis 1:26 (ESV Strong's) 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

No, God did not say that.
Some primitive guys said something that got translated into that, thousands of years later, and attributed it to God.

These people didn't know a bunch of things. From molecules, microbes and gametes to the Chinese and Aztecs, to the shape, history, and orbit of the earth to democracy and human rights. They were not stupid or evil, but they were ignorant. They just didn't know much about anything.
They didn't even know better than making up answers when they just didn't know the true one. So they made them up quite often. Including Genesis.
Tom

 

[QuestioningMind]

This isn't how prayer works.

How is it any different than praying for God to heal an illness?

 

[QuestioningMind]

You don't wish for things for yourself and then judge God, based on his action or inaction, as interpreted whether you think the prayer was answered.

I'm sorry, that sentence doesn't make any sense to me. What does '...as interpreted whether you think the prayer was answer..' mean?

I can pray to God that I get a job so that I can take care of my family. If I get the job then I have to judge whether or not I got the job because God answered my prayer or if it was because I was the most qualified applicant. I don't see how that is judging God.

 

[Grumpuss]

How is it any different than praying for God to heal an illness?

It's not part of God's plan to help you win the lottery or swindle a promotion out of your company, simply because you pray for it.

I'm sorry, that sentence doesn't make any sense to me. What does '...as interpreted whether you think the prayer was answer..' mean?

I can pray to God that I get a job so that I can take care of my family. If I get the job then I have to judge whether or not I got the job because God answered my prayer or if it was because I was the most qualified applicant. I don't see how that is judging God.

Rather presumptuous. But carry on- God loves you anyway, even if you want to assess his conduct against your own flaws.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

That you fear the same sort of exercise from your perspective might undermine your beliefs probably means something... not sure what... just interesting.

"That I fear"? I don't fear, there was a day when I didn't believe there was a God, but I met Him, He found me so I have seen it from both perspectives!