Prayer: The Miracle of a Literal Super-Power

[Grumpuss]

And in many, they prayed to a different god, or did not pray and recovered. Also, doctors cannot see the future perfectly. They make predictions that are incorrect. All that aside, my challenge was for you to tell me the difference between the result of prayer and simply an unlikely outcome.

How unlikely are we talking about?

Matthew 19:26 "with God all things are possible."

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you asserting you are as good as the people in the Bible? Or are you just referencing disjointed, out-of-context parts of Scripture for some arcane reason?
.

No, you were implying the deity doesn't reward 'the righteous' with material reward, I was saying the bible has plenty of examples where it does.

 

[Milton Platt]

How unlikely are we talking about?

Matthew 19:26 "with God all things are possible."

It does not matter how unlikely an event is. How do you tell a miracle or an event caused by prayer from an unlikely event, or even from an event we simply don't currently understand?

 

[Grumpuss]

No, you were implying the deity doesn't reward 'the righteous' with material reward, I was saying the bible has plenty of examples where it does.

I was saying that's not how PRAYER works. God's motivations and plans for humanity are his own.

Are you angry that God doesn't bestow material wealthy on you, even when you pray for it really hard, or something?

 

[Grumpuss]

It does not matter how unlikely an event is. How do you tell a miracle or an event caused by prayer from an unlikely event, or even from an event we simply don't currently understand?

You should try it. Faith unlocks mysteries.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I was saying that's not how PRAYER works. God's motivations and plans for humanity are his own.

So the deity will reward some people with material wealth and good health whether they pray or not? Again, begs the question, why bother with intercessory prayer?

Are you angry that God doesn't bestow material wealthy on you, even when you pray for it really hard, or something?

I'm not sure why you think I'm not satisfied with my life from a material point of view, I want for nothing thanks. You're not going down the "you're just an angry atheist" route are you? I admit to being anti-theistic, or anti-religious more accurately, not because I feel I've been personally traumatised by it any point, but because I believe it to be a source of needless discord, suspicion, bigotry and violence. Moreover, it tends to promote superstitious belief over scientific theory, scientific achievements - like people praising god for uncle Bob's recovery from his heart attack after surgeons have spent hours on the operating table with him (and possibly claiming it was their prayer that done the trick?).
You are the one claiming prayer is a "super power" Grumps, I'm just pointing out that it isn't.

 

[Grumpuss]

So the deity will reward some people with material wealth and good health whether they pray or not? Again, begs the question, why bother with intercessory prayer?

Is this a predestination argument?

I'm not sure why you think I'm not satisfied with my life from a material point of view, I want for nothing thanks. You're not going down the "you're just an angry atheist" route are you? I admit to being anti-theistic, or anti-religious more accurately, not because I feel I've been personally traumatised by it any point, but because I believe it to be a source of needless discord, suspicion, bigotry and violence. Moreover, it tends to promote superstitious belief over scientific theory, scientific achievements - like people praising god for uncle Bob's recovery from his heart attack after surgeons have spent hours on the operating table with him (and possibly claiming it was their prayer that done the trick?).
You are the one claiming prayer is a "super power" Grumps, I'm just pointing out that it isn't.

I don't believe I ever bothered to try to make personal attacks based on anyone's religion. That's your wheelhouse.

The area of miracles is mysterious and as yet indeterminable. I don't pretend to know how God works, or presume to know what his plan is. No one is saying surgeons and other medical professionals don't do fine work, and aren't 100% responsible for saving many lives. But for the unexplainable recoveries, amazing cures and death-defying reversals of terminal illness- those are what miracles are, and a sure sign of God. It's verifiable that such things happen to the devout, when they and others pray, more often than non-believers.

If you find that offensive, that's just fine. Go search for understanding and meaning in life by analyzing an empty void. You don't have to be angry about it; or at least, you don't have to berate others for not sharing in your misery.

 

[DavidFirth]

What is going on here? Do you we have a bunch of folks that lack faith bandying about?

 

[DavidFirth]

It does not matter how unlikely an event is. How do you tell a miracle or an event caused by prayer from an unlikely event, or even from an event we simply don't currently understand?

Common sense always helps.

 

[DavidFirth]

You are the one claiming prayer is a "super power" Grumps, I'm just pointing out that it isn't.

Can you prove that it isn't?

 

[Milton Platt]

You should try it. Faith unlocks mysteries.

Would you please answer my question instead of making irrelavant assertions? I asked you how you are able to differentiate between miracles, answered prayers, and events which occur naturally but are either rare or simply unexplainable.

Can you answer the question or not? My answer is that you have absulutely no way to tell the difference. What is your answer?

 

[Milton Platt]

Can you prove that it isn't?

He isn't making a claim, you are. He has no burden of proof.

But to your question, yes, prayer has been tested and shown not to work.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Is this a predestination argument?

I don't believe I ever bothered to try to make personal attacks based on anyone's religion. That's your wheelhouse..

Are you answering someone else's post? How did you get that from what I wrote? You seem to be saying that god doesn't reward prayer with material wealth/good fortune, I pointed out that the bible has plenty of examples where the deity rewards the faithful with material wealth/good fortune. I think I may understand you now - you are saying the deity might cure your cancer if you pray hard enough, but it wont get you a better job, a partner, or anything else that might be deemed to be signs of "doing well" in life. If that is not what you believe, just correct me, this doesn't have to be a catty discussion. Just curious about what it is you believe, that's all. It doesn't sound like what most Christians believe.

It's verifiable that such things happen to the devout, when they and others pray, more often than non-believers...

That is a very big claim, you show me the evidence there is one iota of truth in that statement. Bald assertions that it is true are worthless - what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

If you find that offensive, that's just fine. Go search for understanding and meaning in life by analyzing an empty void. You don't have to be angry about it; or at least, you don't have to berate others for not sharing in your misery.

Enough already, I'm not angry! Like I say, this doesn't have to be a catty discussion.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Can you prove that it isn't?

That depends on how you define a superpower doesn't it? If it is superpower like in the sense of the Fantastic Four, I think there is enough evidence to show that Christians cant produce balls of fire out of nowhere, or ice rays (I'm not a comic nerd, but I seem to recall that from the film).
If it is a superpower like in the sense a Christian can walk into a hospice and cure everyone in the name of Jesus, well I think we know that doesn't happen right?
If it is a superpower like in the sense that praying for sick people might yield an occasional remarkable recovery, but not in a way that can be called statistically significant i.e. there has never been correlation between recovery rates and prayer, let alone a causal link, people make remarkable recoveries without prayer. If that is what you mean, well I wouldn't call that a superpower, I'd call it blind chance.

 

[Grumpuss]

Would you please answer my question instead of making irrelavant assertions? I asked you how you are able to differentiate between miracles, answered prayers, and events which occur naturally but are either rare or simply unexplainable.

Can you answer the question or not? My answer is that you have absulutely no way to tell the difference. What is your answer?

Yes. I can answer the question, and I already did. You seem to be looking for something else. I don't have God's phone number, and there is no golden goose. Sorry- it doesn't work that way.

Peace be with you.

 

[Grumpuss]

Are you answering someone else's post? How did you get that from what I wrote? You seem to be saying that god doesn't reward prayer with material wealth/good fortune, I pointed out that the bible has plenty of examples where the deity rewards the faithful with material wealth/good fortune. I think I may understand you now - you are saying the deity might cure your cancer if you pray hard enough, but it wont get you a better job, a partner, or anything else that might be deemed to be signs of "doing well" in life. If that is not what you believe, just correct me, this doesn't have to be a catty discussion. Just curious about what it is you believe, that's all. It doesn't sound like what most Christians believe.

You asked, "So the deity will reward some people with material wealth and good health whether they pray or not? Again, begs the question, why bother with intercessory prayer?", as though God doesn't care whether I pray or what my conduct in this life is like. That's a predestination argument. No, I don't subscribe to that. God does what he sees fit to do, and doesn't often give me advance notice of what's going to happen. What I do in this life does matter. For you too.

That is a very big claim, you show me the evidence there is one iota of truth in that statement. Bald assertions that it is true are worthless - what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

That isn't a big claim. It's been demonstrated. You want to play the role of skeptic, that's fine. Go find the woman from the OP article and re-infect her with cancer; see if the prayers of others and God heal her again...?

Enough already, I'm not angry! Like I say, this doesn't have to be a catty discussion.

Frustration then. If you disagree, that's fine- it's your right. Demands for clinical trial-quality levels of "evidence" isn't necessary to me to have a conversation. It shouldn't be for you, either.

 

[DavidFirth]

That depends on how you define a superpower doesn't it? If it is superpower like in the sense of the Fantastic Four, I think there is enough evidence to show that Christians cant produce balls of fire out of nowhere, or ice rays (I'm not a comic nerd, but I seem to recall that from the film).
If it is a superpower like in the sense a Christian can walk into a hospice and cure everyone in the name of Jesus, well I think we know that doesn't happen right?
If it is a superpower like in the sense that praying for sick people might yield an occasional remarkable recovery, but not in a way that can be called statistically significant i.e. there has never been correlation between recovery rates and prayer, let alone a causal link, people make remarkable recoveries without prayer. If that is what you mean, well I wouldn't call that a superpower, I'd call it blind chance.

You're skirting around the questoin. Again,

Can you prove that it isn't?

 

[DavidFirth]

He isn't making a claim, you are. He has no burden of proof.

But to your question, yes, prayer has been tested and shown not to work.

In what way?

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

You asked, "So the deity will reward some people with material wealth and good health whether they pray or not? Again, begs the question, why bother with intercessory prayer?", as though God doesn't care whether I pray or what my conduct in this life is like. That's a predestination argument. No, I don't subscribe to that. God does what he sees fit to do, and doesn't often give me advance notice of what's going to happen. What I do in this life does matter. For you too.

Okay, I still think you are giving mixed messages, but fair to say you disagree with the "prosperity gospel" idea, fair? Lets leave it at that.

That isn't a big claim. It's been demonstrated. You want to play the role of skeptic, that's fine. Go find the woman from the OP article and re-infect her with cancer; see if the prayers of others and God heal her again...?.

Grumps, that is a huge claim and if it had been demonstrated in any way that matters, the medical world would be turned on its head. All over the world doctors would be throwing away pills and medical equipment, in order to make more space for pews, where the faithful could come and pray everyone better. People make remarkable recoveries without prayer being involved, I think you're a little in denial.

Frustration then. If you disagree, that's fine- it's your right. Demands for clinical trial-quality levels of "evidence" isn't necessary to me to have a conversation. It shouldn't be for you, either.

Not to have a conversation perhaps, but would I want to see "clinical trial quality of evidence" for any pill or medical procedure someone suggested I undergo. You bet!
Thanks for the exchange, it was interesting.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

You're skirting around the questoin. Again,

Can you prove that it isn't?

I'm not sure what you mean David, I answered you with three different definitions of superpower. Give me your definition of superpower so I know what you are talking about.
If this is some "gotcha" about being able to prove anything with absolute certainty, of course I agree that there is pretty much nothing you can be certain about. Applies to the existence of a deity as well of course.