Prayer: The Miracle of a Literal Super-Power

[DavidFirth]

I'm not sure what you mean David, I answered you with three different definitions of superpower. Give me your definition of superpower so I know what you are talking about.
If this is some "gotcha" about being able to prove anything with absolute certainty, of course I agree that there is pretty much nothing you can be certain about. Applies to the existence of a deity as well of course.

What I'm saying is that you cannot know that "prayer doesn't work." Prayer does work. I can give examples but I'm sure you've heard some before. And chose to give alternate explanations.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am actually curious about your answer to this. I come from a different perspective, different background, and I know prayer works.

It does not matter how unlikely an event is. How do you tell a miracle or an event caused by prayer from an unlikely event, or even from an event we simply don't currently understand?

I was saying that's not how PRAYER works. God's motivations and plans for humanity are his own.

From my view, I know prayer works. You know prayer works. I know the reason and logic beyond my prayers. I also can tell the difference between a prayer and an unlikely event. That is me.

How do you personally tell the difference between a prayer and an unlikely event occurring? (There are two terms for this but I want to see what your answer is first)

For example, my friend who has congenital heart failure her parents and doctors told her she would not live pass infancy. She believes in god, and god saved her life.

Her parents prayed that she would live. Now she is, what, 34 years old. She has her education and traveling the world.

Was her prayers answered?

To her, yes of course. Why wouldn't they be answered if 1. her parents prayed to god and 2. all of the sudden she is a live 32 years later. It's a logical conclusion to put one and one together. Culture influences this as well as peers and society believing the same thing they all believe (just as you) "makes sense." Why wouldn't god answer her prayer?" That would be silly given the doctors said she would not live.

The fact is it would have happened whether they prayed for her or not. Remember, you said prayer is not like picking up a phone. So, the situation of the prayer (hoping I get a job versus hoping I live) does not change the probability one will unlikely happen more than the other. It's on the same token. But I bet you will attribute god to the latter before the former. That's how the believer's mind works. Nothing wrong with that.

Prayer works in that our perspective of life and its events such as above take on a different view than it would for someone who does not see the world in our eyes. If god answered my friend's prayers, that is something that would be worthwhile to you while to me, I'd say it was her family in spirit that helped her lived instead of god. If prayers worked and are fixed a certain way according to the bible

how can you tell if my prayers are what saved her and not her parents'?

That, and you can't put her parents' prayers together just because they are her parents. That's synchronicity. That doesn't confirm something. You can't say that because other people went through the same thing as christians, it works. That's confirmation bias.

So... if you have read this far and understood it too.... (take your time)

Would you please answer my question instead of making irrelavant assertions? I asked you how you are able to differentiate between miracles, answered prayers, and events which occur naturally but are either rare or simply unexplainable.

Can you answer the question or not? My answer is that you have absolutely no way to tell the difference. What is your answer

How can you tell your prayers are prayers (of the supernatural/of god) rather than an unlikely event (that would have happened anyway without any distinct religious attributing cause)?

We are comparing the definition of prayers and why they are distinct from synchronicity, confirmed bias, and coincidence.

If god can be proven, how does he relate to prayers that are only "real" when they are of serious nature but false when it is getting a job or not tripping over a curb?

Please take your time in answering the questions. I know prayer works. I'm a living example of it. I just never heard anyone believer actually explained the logic of prayer without going to the bible. I don't know John, Paul, and Jesus, Moses's view. They are not alive.

Are you able to answer the questions or are there any answers that are logical without supernatural cause? (You can answer yes or no and explain. It's not a debate but discussion about the nature of prayers)

 

[DavidFirth]

I come from a different perspective, different background, and I know prayer works.

You are very wise.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You are very wise.

Thank you

 

[McBell]

You have no facts. The fact that you think you do tells me how unintelligent you are.

I strongly suspect, from your general use of the word, that you have no idea what the word "fact" mean.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Same difference. Presumably you would be trying to get as good a job as you could, maximizing compensation and security. Not merely looking for a day-laborer's work. After all, in your example, you're "desperate", trying to stave off starvation and homelessness for your family. But nevermind, please continue your mock outrage that you would never, ever, ever try to advance in a career...

Theft has been justified in the past as a means to feed one's family. I've not heard of anyone praying to God to be a better bank robber, or for the bank heist to have a huge payday, but perhaps you have.

Hey, whatever you gotta tell yourself to sleep at night.

Don't you find your need to always have the last word some kind of sick compulsion? I had a great uncle once who habitually had to turn the lights off three times before he turned them out for good. But he was very old, and possibly had dementia.

silly grumpus... as long as you keep lying about what I wrote, I'm going to keep replying.

"But nevermind, please continue your mock outrage that you would never, ever, ever try to advance in a career..."

I NEVER claimed that I would NEVER try to advance my career. Why do you insist on lying? Is your argument so weak that lies are your only option? What I did was present a hypothetical scenario. Do you understand what that is? Apparently not, since you KEEP pretending like my hypothetical scenario equals reality.

"Theft has been justified in the past as a means to feed one's family. " Yes it has. But AGAIN, that has NOTHING to do with the hypothetical scenario I mentioned.

It's really not that difficult. All I've asked from the beginning was that you answer my question. IF you pray for something and it comes to pas, how do you know that it wouldn't have happened even if you hadn't prayed. Unfortunately, you appear incapable of answering such a simple question. INSTEAD you insist on lying about what I wrote and bringing up matters that don't apply in any way to the scenario I provided.

But fine... clearly you started this thread expecting that everyone would simply accept everything you wrote without question. When it turned out that people DO question your claims, you get threatened and attack the person asking instead of actually engaging in a civilized debate. Sad and pathetic and an obvious waste of my time. I'll 'pray' that your faith doesn't remain so weak.

Now we get to find out if YOU have a 'sick compulsion' to have the last word.

 

[Grumpuss]

Okay, I still think you are giving mixed messages, but fair to say you disagree with the "prosperity gospel" idea, fair? Lets leave it at that.

Yes. Despite the most earnest intentions of some to paint all religious people the same way, most of them are very, very different. Kinda like atheists.

Grumps, that is a huge claim and if it had been demonstrated in any way that matters, the medical world would be turned on its head. All over the world doctors would be throwing away pills and medical equipment, in order to make more space for pews, where the faithful could come and pray everyone better. People make remarkable recoveries without prayer being involved, I think you're a little in denial.

No, I don't think so. Who God lifts up and who he doesn't is part of His plan, not yours. Is it greedy to want to live a long time and be free of disease? You might say it isn't, but I say that's not a question for us to answer. This woman was a servant of God, and had many zealous friends praying for her- perhaps those were factors. I don't know. But I can appreciate the miracle and admire the causation.

Not to have a conversation perhaps, but would I want to see "clinical trial quality of evidence" for any pill or medical procedure someone suggested I undergo. You bet!
Thanks for the exchange, it was interesting.

I know you would want to see it. The jury in the Bill Cosby trial also had an impossible standard of proof, that could never be satisfied.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

What I'm saying is that you cannot know that "prayer doesn't work." Prayer does work. I can give examples but I'm sure you've heard some before. And chose to give alternate explanations.

I don't think anyone can know prayer work. They can only assume it does. They also can't know if prayer isn't working for someone else of some other faith, or that it is.

 

[Grumpuss]

I am actually curious about your answer to this. I come from a different perspective, different background, and I know prayer works.

Hello Carlita. Thank you for your rational and calm demeanor, first of all.

You made some well-reasoned points, but essentially asked different versions of the same question. For the sake of brevity, I truncated your quote, but will attempt to answer and hit as many of your points as I can.

The answer is, that answers to prayer and extremely unlikely events are both happening at the same time.

To see causation, you have to examine the faith and action of prayer on the part of parties receiving God's blessing. Of course, God helps all as He sees fit, but can be seen to "deliver" more for those that are devout and keep their belief sacred. The skeptic will say that this is bias, and that the faithful are looking for signs of God everywhere and ascribing blessings readily.

But it is verifiable that people who pray more are happier, live longer and are less concerned with material wealth. Again, the skeptic claims that stupid people are delusional and that if prayer truly worked, believers would all be winning the lottery; they couldn't be more wrong. Those who devote time to prayer, especially those that do so regularly, think more upon their own conduct and more carefully consider who has a need and ask for God's blessing. Prayer is not some easy, humdrum activity that can be accomplished like firing off a tweet or Facebook "like". The result is therefore more meaningful to the devout who made the prayer, and they are accepting of whether or not someone's cancer magically goes into remission, whether there shall be rain to allow for a decent harvest, or whether a tornado spares something/someone in its path. (These are just examples; in today's society, most of the time it's a medical reversal of fortune that gets tagged as a miracle.)

Prayer, in the end, is about hope and the resolute knowledge that God has a plan. When someone is given a death sentence by doctors, and there is 0% chance of recovery, yet miraculously he does- that is the superpower of prayer. The spiritual have that hope, and that knowledge, while the non-believer simply accepts the grim reality of what the mortal scientists and doctors claim. He denies the knowledge, because he demands instant gratification and earthly proof beyond flimsy "feelings".

It doesn't require the Bible. It only requires belief in something greater than yourself. Anyone that has witnessed the amazement of the cosmos can appreciate this. Such people are not fools to be ignored. Einstein, famously dismissive of organized religion, still believed in a supreme being in the Universe, specifically a creator. Other faiths highlight the need for prayer in their holy scriptures as well. Beware the people who are always dismissive of faith in general, if their natural inclination is, as seen on this thread, to personally attack the specific faith of someone making the argument.

As for your friend, it would probably depend on the specific medical condition. If all hope was truly lost by the doctors, and prayer was the only thing that worked, I would say you have you answer there. She wouldn't have merely defied the odds- she turned them on their head and achieved the impossible. If it was a minor thing that surgery and drugs are more than competent to fix nowadays, then maybe, maybe not. In any event, I'm glad she continues to be blessed and has you for a friend.

I hope that answers your question(s).

 

[Grumpuss]

silly grumpus... as long as you keep lying about what I wrote, I'm going to keep replying.

No lies. Just your willful ignorance of what's in front of you. And of course, your pathological need to always have the last word.

"But nevermind, please continue your mock outrage that you would never, ever, ever try to advance in a career..."

I NEVER claimed that I would NEVER try to advance my career. Why do you insist on lying? Is your argument so weak that lies are your only option? What I did was present a hypothetical scenario. Do you understand what that is? Apparently not, since you KEEP pretending like my hypothetical scenario equals reality.

You threw a hissy-fit, so I attempted to explain that getting a job (or promotion) by means of prayer, isn't the way prayer works. Taking umbrage with the perceived difference between the two is the mock outrage: you weren't talking about a job paying just enough compensation to live; you meant one that would allow you or your family to thrive. It's you that is lying, but mostly to yourself.

"Theft has been justified in the past as a means to feed one's family. " Yes it has. But AGAIN, that has NOTHING to do with the hypothetical scenario I mentioned.

An analogous example to help you think. My mistake.

It's really not that difficult. All I've asked from the beginning was that you answer my question. IF you pray for something and it comes to pas, how do you know that it wouldn't have happened even if you hadn't prayed. Unfortunately, you appear incapable of answering such a simple question. INSTEAD you insist on lying about what I wrote and bringing up matters that don't apply in any way to the scenario I provided.

It has to do with expectation. You expect there's no God, have no love in your heart, but figure- "what the heck, let's see if I can win the Lotto or cure my dog's asthma through prayer." And you're really surprised such a lack of faith and conviction, combined with greedy personal desires isn't rewarded?!?

But fine... clearly you started this thread expecting that everyone would simply accept everything you wrote without question. When it turned out that people DO question your claims, you get threatened and attack the person asking instead of actually engaging in a civilized debate. Sad and pathetic and an obvious waste of my time. I'll 'pray' that your faith doesn't remain so weak.

You asked for clarification and answers. When I supplied them, you criticized them and engaged in personal attacks. I am sorry you are frustrated, but I certainly didn't start the thread so that you could peddle an agenda.

Now we get to find out if YOU have a 'sick compulsion' to have the last word.

Not a fair comparison. You write a lengthy post, demanding answers, and then at the end challenge me that *I* want to have the last word? Great logic, so I "lose" either way. Did you think of that one yourself, or did another bully on the playground teach you?

 

[DavidFirth]

I don't think anyone can know prayer work. They can only assume it does. They also can't know if prayer isn't working for someone else of some other faith, or that it is.

Well, a degree of faith is required. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[Grumpuss]

Well, a degree of faith is required. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Oh, some of these unfaithful probably manage to please him occasionally. A broken clock is still correct twice a day, after all...

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Yes. Despite the most earnest intentions of some to paint all religious people the same way, most of them are very, very different. Kinda like atheists.

I thought our exchange was at an end, you like to get the last word huh? I've been around long enough to know that people (no matter what label they apply to themselves) are people, splendidly different, splendidly contrary, I've no arguments with that statement.

No, I don't think so. Who God lifts up and who he doesn't is part of His plan, not yours. Is it greedy to want to live a long time and be free of disease? You might say it isn't, but I say that's not a question for us to answer.

We'll never agree on something like that Grumps, but consider this; when Jesus was alive the average life expectancy was around 40 years. People would die of a simple infection in those days, they had very little idea about medication, but they did have a great big parcel of superstitious beliefs. I'm 50 and I'm as fit as a flea, I expect to live on healthily for a good few decades yet. I've human science and technology to thank for that, not some deity.

I know you would want to see it. The jury in the Bill Cosby trial also had an impossible standard of proof, that could never be satisfied.

Impossible standard of proof? Show me a correlation or a causal link? No, that is a very ordinary standard of proof. (Bet you cant let this be the last post on the thread right, bet you're already thinking of how best to shoot me down???)

 

[DavidFirth]

I admire your sense of humor, Burp.

 

[Milton Platt]

I am actually curious about your answer to this. I come from a different perspective, different background, and I know prayer works.




From my view, I know prayer works. You know prayer works. I know the reason and logic beyond my prayers. I also can tell the difference between a prayer and an unlikely event. That is me.

How do you personally tell the difference between a prayer and an unlikely event occurring? (There are two terms for this but I want to see what your answer is first)

For example, my friend who has congenital heart failure her parents and doctors told her she would not live pass infancy. She believes in god, and god saved her life.

Her parents prayed that she would live. Now she is, what, 34 years old. She has her education and traveling the world.

Was her prayers answered?

I have no idea if the prayers worked. Correlation is not the same as causation, first of all. Secondly, you are exercising what is known as confirmation bias. You flaunt all the times the data meets your viewpoint (in this case, once) but you ignore all the times it is contrary to your viewpoint. Find out how many times someone prayed and a life was NOT saved and compare the two figures.

To her, yes of course. Why wouldn't they be answered if 1. her parents prayed to god and 2. all of the sudden she is a live 32 years later. It's a logical conclusion to put one and one together. Culture influences this as well as peers and society believing the same thing they all believe (just as you) "makes sense." Why wouldn't god answer her prayer?" That would be silly given the doctors said she would not live.

The fact is it would have happened whether they prayed for her or not. Remember, you said prayer is not like picking up a phone. So, the situation of the prayer (hoping I get a job versus hoping I live) does not change the probability one will unlikely happen more than the other. It's on the same token. But I bet you will attribute god to the latter before the former. That's how the believer's mind works. Nothing wrong with that.

The problem with that is that you have just admitted that prayer does not actually change the outcome (see green highlight in your comments). That means it does not actually work....it does not change outcomes. That was the point I was trying to make. So it is a fruitless exercise.

I didn't mention a phone in any of my posts, so I don't know what you are referencing with that statement.

Prayer works in that our perspective of life and its events such as above take on a different view than it would for someone who does not see the world in our eyes. If god answered my friend's prayers, that is something that would be worthwhile to you while to me, I'd say it was her family in spirit that helped her lived instead of god. If prayers worked and are fixed a certain way according to the bible

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

how can you tell if my prayers are what saved her and not her parents'?

Nobody can tell.......nobody.

That, and you can't put her parents' prayers together just because they are her parents. That's synchronicity. That doesn't confirm something. You can't say that because other people went through the same thing as christians, it works. That's confirmation bias.

I don't know what your are trying to say here.....did you accidentally reply to me when you meant to reply to someone else?

So... if you have read this far and understood it too.... (take your time)



How can you tell your prayers are prayers (of the supernatural/of god) rather than an unlikely event (that would have happened anyway without any distinct religious attributing cause)?

You cannot tell, that is my point. Why believe in something for which the evidence is absent?

We are comparing the definition of prayers and why they are distinct from synchronicity, confirmed bias, and coincidence.

I am assuming that prayers are a direct request to a god for him to do something materially for the person making the request, or for someone the person knows.

If god can be proven, how does he relate to prayers that are only "real" when they are of serious nature but false when it is getting a job or not tripping over a curb?

He has not, so far, been confirmed to exist. But that is another discussion and takes us away from this thread.

Please take your time in answering the questions. I know prayer works. I'm a living example of it. I just never heard anyone believer actually explained the logic of prayer without going to the bible. I don't know John, Paul, and Jesus, Moses's view. They are not alive.

Demonstrate how you are an example of prayer.

Are you able to answer the questions or are there any answers that are logical without supernatural cause? (You can answer yes or no and explain. It's not a debate but discussion about the nature of prayers)

I am not concerned with the nature of prayers, but only whether they actually work. You have not put forth any such evidence.

 

[Milton Platt]

In what way?

Thank you for asking. Here is a link to one such study:

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer

 

[DavidFirth]

I strongly suspect, from your general use of the word, that you have no idea what the word "fact" mean.

I apologize for calling you unintelligent. I was wrong about that.

 

[DavidFirth]

Thank you for asking. Here is a link to one such study:

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer

At least 10 studies in the past 6 years had mixed results according to the article.

Dr. Bethea also concluded that more studies need to be made.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can't reply to your comments. It's better if I read them in parts then as a whole so I can understand your points better.

 

[Milton Platt]

At least 10 studies in the past 6 years had mixed results according to the article.

Dr. Bethea also concluded that more studies need to be made.

So some studies showed mixed results and some showed negative results......That is obviously not a resounding "yes", is it? Many of the studies have had flaws such as too few participants for numbers to be statistically relevant, etc. That is why I quoted the Templeton study. It had a large study base, and it was done by a group that actually had the goal of proving prayer works.