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Prayers to Mary (and other Saints) (Christians)
- Thread starter ForeverFaithful
- Start date
It was also once believed that there was no resurrection of the dead, that we would be in Sheol/Hades forever, and there is evidence of this in the Bible. Does this mean that there's no resurrection of the dead? No, later revelation from God cleared up and corrected our misunderstandings. The Bible is full of human understandings and human musings. Ecclesiastes was a human work trying to make sense of the transiency of this life, and the bleak shadow of death hanging over everything.
I don't see how Ecclesiastes 9:5 disproves that the faithful Christians who die are alive in Christ. Should we also say that some of the early OT writings disprove the resurrection of the dead? I sure hope not!
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
2 Maccabees 15:12-16
12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews:
13 After this there appeared also an- other man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty :
14 Then Onias answering, Raid: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.
15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:
16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.
Here, Onias and Jeremiah, who had been dead for a very long time, are shown to be very much aware of the activities of the Israelites, and are praying for them.
Of course, Martin Luther would remove this book from the Bible, wouldn't he?
12 Now the vision was in this manner: Onias who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in his speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues, holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews:
13 After this there appeared also an- other man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty :
14 Then Onias answering, Raid: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias the prophet of God.
15 Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying:
16 Take this holy sword a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel.
Here, Onias and Jeremiah, who had been dead for a very long time, are shown to be very much aware of the activities of the Israelites, and are praying for them.
Of course, Martin Luther would remove this book from the Bible, wouldn't he?
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
I think the keywords here are “one" and "mediator” or one who mediates between two parties; otherwise, it would say “mediators” if all were included in the mediating.
What was Christ Jesus mediating or bridging between God and men?
Ro 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
How did the man Christ Jesus mediate between God and men?
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Christ Jesus, as the sole mediator, went and died alone on the cross so He can bridge between God and men.
We must always remember who died on the cross, the One who restored back the communication that was broken in Genesis between God and men.
That is why we pray in Jesus name alone because He was the only documented mediator that mediated/sacrificed/died between God and men.
If one adds more mediators between God and men, one must produce this documents as proof, otherwise its just heresy.
I think the keywords here are “one" and "mediator” or one who mediates between two parties; otherwise, it would say “mediators” if all were included in the mediating.
What was Christ Jesus mediating or bridging between God and men?
Ro 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
How did the man Christ Jesus mediate between God and men?
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Christ Jesus, as the sole mediator, went and died alone on the cross so He can bridge between God and men.
We must always remember who died on the cross, the One who restored back the communication that was broken in Genesis between God and men.
That is why we pray in Jesus name alone because He was the only documented mediator that mediated/sacrificed/died between God and men.
If one adds more mediators between God and men, one must produce this documents as proof, otherwise its just heresy.
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Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
Jesus is the sole mediator. It is only through Him we can get to God.
However, does that mean we cannot pray for others, or have our friends pray for us?
At the beginning of that very chapter you quote, Paul writes
"I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people" 1 Tim 2:1
Yep, Jesus is the sole mediator. We can only go to the Father through Him. This is referring to salvation. There is no other way to the Father but through Christ.
I don't see what this has to do with asking those who are alive in Christ to pray for us, however. Your understanding of the text would mean that we cannot even ask our friends to pray for us, but this is obviously not what Paul meant because of 1 Tim 2:1.
I have provided evidence for those who are dead, praying for those on earth, in my previous post.
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I think it is a mistake to use the word "mediator" in reference to saints, such as Mary.
I think the accurate word is "intercessor", and I see a big difference between the two words.
A mediator's function is to resolve conflict. A mediator has the authority to render a decision.
An intercessor is one who petitions on behalf of another person.
Hence, Mary may easily be prayed to, as in the Hail Mary: "...pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" without there being any threat of her stepping in between the person and God, and without any thought that her prayer is intended to override anything.
One is simply asking for her prayers on an issue, or in general.
Paul wrote to Timothy to urge his congregation to pray to God for all people. Since it is understood by the congregation, upon hearing from Timothy the following verses, that Christ mediated their relationship with God, it is then understood that when they pray they are praying directly to God. They don’t need to use another name other than the name of Jesus to pray to God, because they understood that Christ is their ONLY mediator in heaven to God.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phil 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
All these petitions, prayers, intercession, and thanksgiving are all for the glory of God in Jesus name.
So, when you ask Mary, or any dead people, to pray for you or someone else, you are using names other than Jesus’ name to mediate between you and God.
Jn 16:23 NLT At that time you won’t need to ask me for anything. The truth is, you can go directly to the Father and ask him, and he will grant your request because you use my name.
Jn 16:26 NLT Then you will ask in my name. I’m not saying I will ask the Father on your behalf,
Jn 16:27 NLT for the Father himself loves you dearly because you love me and believe that I came from God.
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1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
When you are praying for others, you are praying directly to God for these others and vice versa.
When you ask Mary to pray for you, you are not praying directly to God, but asking Mary to pray for you to God instead.
That is a very scary thought.
For example, you just bought a very, very expensive car, would you let someone drive it for you? NO! because you are not sure if that person could really drive at all, so you rather drive it yourself.
Did you really think that Mary could deliver your prayer to God when you could do it by yourself?
I go directly to God because I knew I have Someone by the name of Jesus sitting at the right hand side of God mediating before God for me.
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
James 5:16 - Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
What's wrong in asking others to pray for us? Are we not allowed to ask our friends to pray for us then? The scripture tells us that the prayers of a righteous person avail much.
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
...I'm not denying Paul's words. Jesus is the sole mediator between us and God, as in He is the 'door', the 'way', etc. None can come to the Father except through Him. But this does not mean we cannot ask other people to pray for us. Are you saying we cannot ask other people to pray for us?
I don't find the thought scary at all. It is OK with me if you do.
I'm not trying to convince you that you ought to ask for the intercession of saints. I don't usually pray that way, myself. Almost never. I understand the belief that one can go directly to God, which I agree with, and that's the most direct route. Why not? It's a valid point.
However, I don't see it as a negative thing that other people ask for intercession, as an accompaniment to other prayers.
Now, if it was prayer like, "Hey Mary, how about you help me sneak behind God's back on a few things.
" that would be asking for something opposed to, or somehow outside of, the will of God. That would be a different thing altogether. Or, if the idea of praying for intercession was presented like Mary was necessary because you could not get through without her help, that would be a different thing to me.
I don't think anyone has the authority to place themselves between a person and God, as a necessary, required, mediator (which I think is the point you were making.)
I simply see the function differently of a mediator and an intercessor. No one has to ask for intercession of saints. So, I think that one can hold the position that Jesus is their only mediator, and also choose to include prayers of intercession of saints --without one idea being opposed to the other.
(BTW, I'm probably not going to buy a very expensive car anytime soon. If I did buy one, I would let someone I love and trust drive it. I made the decision a long time ago that I did not want to own anything that I held as more valuable than the people I love, or reserved for "special" company. That's why we use our fine china set as everyday dishes. It's getting dings. That's ok.)
Please do not misunderstood me. There in nothing wrong when you ask someone to pray for you at all. Pastors always asked the congregation to pray for them.
What I understood here is, asking the dead to pray for the living, and sometimes it is the other way around.
The Lord Jesus Christ is alive sitting at the right hand side of the living God. Why asked the dead when you could ask the living God?
For me dead is dead. They do not have the capabilities compare to the living ones anymore. Like statues, they are just dead woods and nothing else, but people think they are alive because they talk to them. Who talks to a tree or stones? Do they answer back?
Please my apology if one thinks that I am making fun of all these.
This is what the prophet Isaiah said,
Isa 44:19 The person who made the idol never stops to reflect, Why, its just a block of wood! I burned half of it for heat and used it to bake my bread and roast my meat. How can the rest of it be a god? Should I bow down to worship a chunk of wood?
jtartar
Well-Known Member
ForeverFaithful,
First, allow me to remind everyone that we have an example I the Holy Scriptures, about contending, according to the rules, 2Tim 2:5, 1Cor 9:24-27. It seems that these scriptures are pointing out that we also, must obey the rules in our conduct, Heb 13:18.
The Bible says that God is the hearer of prayer, Ps 65:2, and that He is Good and ready to forgive, Ps 86:5. Jesus himself said to give Sacred Service, WORSHIP, only to His Father, GOD, Matt 4:10. The angel also told John to Worship God, Rev 19:10, 22:9.
Let us next answer the question: Does God hear all prayers??? The answer seems to be NO!! Consider who God does NOT listen to; First to those who turn away from His laws, Prov 28:9, 15:8. Also in Isaiah we have another group that God does not listen to, Isa 1:15-17. People whose hands have blood on them will not be heard. I wonder if Oboma knows his scripture. I wonder where this puts all the military men?? Consider Matt 26:52!!!
Who then, does God listen to??? 1John 5:14 says that God listens to anyone who prays according to His will. On many things we may keep on asking, not knowing it may not be according to His will, Matt 7:7,8. If we are serious and search for the truth of God's word, as you would for treasure, God Himself will give us that knowledge, James 1:5, Prov 2:1-10.
The truth seems to be, God wants us to pray to Him very often, for that shows that we care about what He wants. Also our prayers show what we think about others. Since God is Love, He wants us to love our fellow man, John 13:34,35, 1John 4:8, 19-21, Matt 22:35-40.
Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
The dead are dead. Are they? Do you not believe they are in heaven, alive in Christ?
The saints are alive and well and are with God in heaven.
Revelation 5:8 - And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.
Here the 24 elders, who are humans, are in heaven and are presenting our prayers to God.
I'm going to assume, then, that you never, ever ask anyone to pray for you--not your pastor, not your family, not your friends. At least you'd better not, if this is your position. If you ask your friends and family to pray for you, but refuse to ask Mary to pray for you because you think it's a "very scary thought" to ask someone else to pray for you when you could do it yourself... Well, you can't eat your cake and have it.
I am repeating my answer again. “Please do not misunderstood me. There in nothing wrong when you ask someone to pray for you at all. Pastors always asked the congregation to pray for them.”
“Well, you can't eat your cake and have it.” I have never heard this expression before. Pls explain..
Are we going to debate again? LOL!! Good to read from you again.
What was “the people” or the Israelites first and foremost sin against God? Idolatry!
In 1Corinthians chapter 10 Paul wrote,
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Paul was talking about “the people” in the O.T.. Corinthians by nature were pagans and Paul explained to them how “the people” sinned against God.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
We have these written instructions, the bible, from God. All of these were for us to read as a guide so that we do not make mistakes as the Israelites did in the Old Testament.
The bible is like a GPS. If the gps says, go to the right, the driver should or must go to the right so that he or she can reach the destination without ever getting lost.
What if the gps says go to the right and the driver went to the left, naturally, he or she would get lost and not reach the destination.
Paul was making an example for us Gentiles to follow.
Why make the deads as if they were alive?
If I ask my fellow Christians, who are alive, to pray to God for me, I can be very, very sure that their prayers are directly pointing toward God.
On the other hand, if I ask dead Christians, even though they are with God in heaven, I can not be sure if they can really hear my prayer because up there in heaven there is ONLY ONE mediating between God and men, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ sitting at HIS right hand side.
So, to communicate from earth to heaven, where God is, you would need someone who is alive, here on earth, to be able to communicate directly and not indirectly to God in heaven.
On other hand, if I ask the dead Christians in heaven to pray for me down here on earth to God, who is in heaven, is like bypassing that direct communication between God and me. I hope you are getting this.
In other words direct communication with God is the one that the Lord Jesus Christ restored and mediating between God in heaven and men here on earth, and no one else could do that in heaven except Christ. His name only. Written and documented.
Another analogy is, if I live in NY and ask my friend, also here in NY, to call my friend in Cali who is sitting by the phone 24x7, he would call directly to my friend in Cali for me. Knowing my friend is always by the phone 24x7, I can be assured that he will answer the call. That is Direct communication.
On the other hand, if I live here in NY and I want to call my friend in Cali, do I call my friend’s friend who is also Cali instead knowing that my friend in Cali is always there sitting by the phone 24x7? Why call your friend’s friend in Cali when you can call directly to your friend who is always sitting by the phone 24x7? That is indirect communication.
Without a doubt, Mary is in heaven with God. Leave her alone cause she can not do anything beyond her just being human or mortal like us. Only the human minds gave her that power to communicate from here on earth to God in heaven. Its unbiblical to ask Mary to pray for you.
By grace, God gave human the direct communication to Him when Christ died on the cross. The Lord Jesus Christ mediated that lost communication between God and men.
This is what God wants for us people, to communicate directly to Him, something the Israelites never had the pleasure of doing in the Old Testament. They cannot talk to God directly as Christians were doing today.
And what did human do with that communication?
Invented another ways to communicate to God by means of dead people. Dead is dead and that is why they are called dead. I am not disrespecting the dead, my apology if one thinks so.
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The "bowls full of incense" represent the "prayers of the saints" here on earth to heaven (Rev.8:3-4).
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Prayer in this scene is not praise but petition. Why do the saints on earth petition God?
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
As we can read, the petitions or prayers of the saints here on earth are directed to God, not even to angels but to God alone.
In Rev.6:10 the martyrs are seen as calling to God for his judgment on those who killed them, and in Rev.8:3-4 the prayers of the saints are immediately connected with the trumpets of God's judgment. These prayers, then, are evidently for God's vindication of the martyred saints. And since v.10 refers to the coming kingdom, it may be that the prayers are petitions for God to judge the world and to extend his kingdom throughout the earth (Lk 18:7-8). "Saints" is simply the normal term for the rank and file of Christians, i.e., those set apart for God's purposes (2Co 1:1; Php 1:1; Rev 11:18; 13:7, 19; 19:8; 22:21).
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Sultan Of Swing
Well-Known Member
So why do the angels and the elders present the prayers to God anyway? What do they have to do with it?
Alright, I'm going to hold you to that.
It's a fancier version of "you can't have it both ways."
Indeed! Well met, BornAgain
I fail to see what idolatry has to do with this.
Then why would you ask someone on Earth to pray to God for you, if only Jesus is the mediator between you and God? You still don't yet understand the difference between intercessor and mediator. Jesus is the only mediator, but there are a multitude of intercessors. Think of it like many streams flowing into a big river, which flows into the ocean. Only the big river flows directly into the ocean (Jesus mediating with the Father), but the many streams feed into the big river (the prayers of the Saints and those here on earth who are passing their prayers off to Christ, Who in turn advocates on our behalf to the Father).
Asking someone here alive on earth is also bypassing that direct communication between you and God.
You're making an argument against indirect communication. Why would you ask your friend in NY to call your friend in Cali when you could do it yourself? There's no difference between asking your friend's friend in Cali to call your friend, and asking your friend who lives in NY to call your friend who is in Cali. Either way, it's indirect communication. In both scenarios, you're asking someone to call your friend in Cali for you. The method is the same.
Yes, Mary's only human. But being Jesus' mother, she can communicate with Him really easily. To use your analogy, if you ask your friend's mom to talk to your friend for you, you can be sure that she'll talk to your friend for you, am I right? Or how about calling your friend's roommate and asking them to talk to your friend for you? They live together, so you can be sure that the roommate would talk to your friend for you.
What makes you say that?
Well, if we can communicate directly to God, by your logic, why would we ever ask anyone to pray for us if we can go to God ourselves? Why would we ask either our friend in NY or our friend's friend in Cali or our friend's mom or our friend's roommate to call our friend in Cali, when we can call our friend in Cali ourselves? Your argument defeats itself.
They are physically dead, yes. But they are alive in Christ, and are with Him.
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