Prayers to Mary (and other Saints) (Christians)

[BornAgain]

Mediator in Greek is, MESITES, one who mediates between two parties with a view to producing peace.

Christ is the only mediator between God and men, 1Tim2:5. Now, to be able for Christ and the Holy Spirit to intercede for anyone, one has to pass the state of Christ being as a MEDIATOR to make PEACE with God. We call this justification by faith.

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

I am not talking about sacraments here that one has to do first before going to the next state or phase. Upon believing that Christ is the ONLY MEDIATOR, intercessions simultaneously begins, there is no time gap here in between.

Now, IF one is still in the process or state of understanding or not understanding at all the meaning, that Christ is the only MEDIATOR between God and yourself, -remember the meaning of mediator is, two parties with a view to producing PEACE. SEE Rom5:1 again- then you have not reached the state of intercession.

The question is; how can the Holy Spirit intercedes if one CANNOT ACCEPT that Christ is the only MEDIATOR between God and men?

Mk 15:37 Then Jesus uttered another loud cry and breathed his last.
Mk 15:38 And the curtain in the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

In the Old Testament, the Israelites OR the people could not go through this curtain, but when Christ became the ultimate -MEDIATOR- sacrificed; this curtain was opened-up for everyone to communicate directly to God without a mediator or an O.T. high priest except for Christ who became our High Priest.

The following verses are one of the most beautiful verses one could ever read in the New Testament.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Christ's body replaced the “torn” curtain to the Most Holiest Place, and through that curtain, -Christ's body- is the Shekinah glory of the almighty God, and that is where Christians are standing right now, between God and Christ in PEACE.

Now, we go to,

Intercessions in Greek is ENTUNCHANO, primarily to fall in with, meet with in order to converse; then, to make petition, especially to make intercession, plead with a person, either for; examples of for are,

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

We do not see others, other than Christ and the Holy Spirit, making intercessions for Christians here on earth. In other words, The Lord Jesus Christ is the sole MEDIATOR and INTERCESSOR between GOD and men.

OR against others; Examples of against, in Acts25:24, against Paul; in Romans11:2, of Elijah in pleading with God against Israel.

Before Christ or the Holy Spirit can intercede, one has to pass that state of MEDIATORSHIP of Christ first. In other words, upon believing that Christ died, was buried, and resurrected on the third day, intercessions begins simultaneously. One has to make PEACE with God through Christ’s MEDIATORSHIP first before intercessions begins.

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[BornAgain]

I fail to see what idolatry has to do with this.

Failed to see is denial!

Then why would you ask someone on Earth to pray to God for you, if only Jesus is the mediator between you and God? You still don't yet understand the difference between intercessor and mediator. Jesus is the only mediator, but there are a multitude of intercessors. Think of it like many streams flowing into a big river, which flows into the ocean. Only the big river flows directly into the ocean (Jesus mediating with the Father), but the many streams feed into the big river (the prayers of the Saints and those here on earth who are passing their prayers off to Christ, Who in turn advocates on our behalf to the Father).

Asking someone here alive on earth is also bypassing that direct communication between you and God.

Mt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Can you see the manner of communication here between God and men? God who is in heaven while the one praying is still on earth. The one on earth is addressing God in heaven. This is a good example of a direct communication that the Lord Jesus Christ taught His disciples on how to pray to God.

If you meant by “multitude of intercessors” and “the prayers of the Saints” who are in heaven, and people should ask these saints to intercede between God and men, then prove it with scriptures.
This is what Paul did every time he went to synagogues,

Ac 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

You're making an argument against indirect communication. Why would you ask your friend in NY to call your friend in Cali when you could do it yourself?

If I ask my fellow Christian to pray for me to God, that is a direct prayer from earth to God in heaven. “Our Father which art in heaven,”

If I ask my fellow Christians to ask Mary like "holy mary....pray for us"-who is also in heaven- to pray for me to God, is that a direct prayer to “Our Father which art in heaven” or an indirect prayer via Mary to God?

If through Mary,

Then the Lord Jesus Christ gave us a bad example on how to pray DIRECTLY to“Our Father which art in heaven”

Yes, Mary's only human. But being Jesus' mother, she can communicate with Him really easily.

Please read and understand these two verses.

Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

According to flesh, yes! Jesus was the son of Mary, the son of David. You should have passed that state of mind, or if it is spirituality, by now.

Jn 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

From this verses on, Christ was giving up His humanity, and the first sign of this is, “Woman, behold thy son!” Christ after this humiliation, after this ugly death, will no longer be the son of Mary anymore and that is why Jesus entrusted Mary, His mother in the flesh, to John.

After the resurrection the Lord Jesus Christ will be “declared to be the Son of God”

Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This state of spirituality should have been all over you already if you really believed that the Lord Jesus Christ is the sole MEDIATOR between God and you. The Lord Jesus Christ is no longer the Son of Mary anymore. That is why it says here, “declared to be the Son of God”

What makes you say that?

Its un-biblical to ask Mary to pray for you.

Mt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Well, if we can communicate directly to God, by your logic, why would we ever ask anyone to pray for us if we can go to God ourselves? Why would we ask either our friend in NY or our friend's friend in Cali or our friend's mom or our friend's roommate to call our friend in Cali, when we can call our friend in Cali ourselves? Your argument defeats itself.

Let us say for example, NY is earth and California is heaven.

I live in NY and I ask a friend -also here in NY- to call our friend#1 in Cali. Now, this friend#1 of ours in Cali sits by the phone 24 hours 7 days a week. In other words, if my friend calls this friend#1[/B] of ours in Cali, we can be assured that this friend#1[/B] will answer the phone right away, because we knew that this friend#1[/B] in Cali is sitting by the phone 24x7. Direct communication, isn‘t it?

If I ask my fellow Christians here on earth to pray for me directly to God in heaven, I or we can be assured that this prayers would be heard.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Do not mis-interpret this verse as; the saints here on earth prayed to the angels first, and then the angels brought it up to God. Angels are messengers of God.

On the other hand, I live in NY and I ask a friend -also here in NY- to call our other friend#2 -who also live in Cali- to bring a message to our friend#1 in Cali.

Now, this friend#2, we are not sure if he or she has a phone that is available 24x7.

While of our friend#1 in Cali who sits by the phone 24 hours 7 days a week.

Now who would you call, friend#1 or friend#2?

I know you will still call friend#2 to bring your message to friend#1.

The question is, will it reach, your message, to friend#1?

They are physically dead, yes. But they are alive in Christ, and are with Him.

I am not arguing with that statement because it is true.

Mk 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mk 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

 

[Shiranui117]

Failed to see is denial!

What am I denying? I'm not denying anything.

Can you see the manner of communication here between God and men? God who is in heaven while the one praying is still on earth. The one on earth is addressing God in heaven. This is a good example of a direct communication that the Lord Jesus Christ taught His disciples on how to pray to God.

Yes, that's elementary-level stuff.

If you meant by “multitude of intercessors” and “the prayers of the Saints” who are in heaven, and people should ask these saints to intercede between God and men, then prove it with scriptures.

You've ignored Revelations 8:3-4, and you've ignored James 5:16. What reason do I have to believe that you won't ignore the next Scripture I provide?

If I ask my fellow Christians to ask Mary like "holy mary....pray for us"-who is also in heaven- to pray for me to God, is that a direct prayer to “Our Father which art in heaven” or an indirect prayer via Mary to God?

If you ask your fellow Christians to pray for you, you are making an indirect prayer via your fellow Christians to God. It's the same thing.

According to flesh, yes! Jesus was the son of Mary, the son of David. You should have passed that state of mind, or if it is spirituality, by now.

Was? Jesus IS the Son of Mary.

Jn 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

From this verses on, Christ was giving up His humanity, and the first sign of this is, “Woman, behold thy son!” Christ after this humiliation, after this ugly death, will no longer be the son of Mary anymore and that is why Jesus entrusted Mary, His mother in the flesh, to John.

That is very, very wrong. If Jesus gave up His humanity on the Cross, then we are not saved.

In John 19:26-27, Jesus is entrusting the care of Mary to John, as verse 27 clearly shows. Jesus wanted to make sure that His mother would be taken care of. He isn't giving up His humanity!

This state of spirituality should have been all over you already if you really believed that the Lord Jesus Christ is the sole MEDIATOR between God and you. The Lord Jesus Christ is no longer the Son of Mary anymore. That is why it says here, “declared to be the Son of God”

Your position here shocks me. Jesus throws away His humanity, yet is the mediator between God and man? No, absolutely not! The Cross is the atonement (literally at-one-ment, meaning to make one) between God and man. Jesus reconciles God and man in His own Person, which is fully human and fully Divine. Jesus is the mediator between God and man, precisely BECAUSE He is both God and man. The Cross brings no atonement or reconciliation if Jesus' humanity is left dead on the Cross, and He goes back to being solely God. If Jesus' humanity is left dead on the Cross, then death still has dominion over us. If Jesus' humanity is left dead on the Cross, and is not resurrected with the rest of Him, then we do not share in Christ's resurrection from the dead. Jesus' continuing to be human from the Crucifixion to the Resurrection to the Ascension and onward is crucial to our being saved.

Its un-biblical to ask Mary to pray for you.

Mt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

I could take your argument one step further and say that it's un-biblical to ask ANYONE to pray for you. You stress direct communication to God alone, but you have no problem saying that indirect communication (i.e. asking other Christians to pray for you) is perfectly alright? You can't eat your cake and have it. You can't have it both ways. Pick a story and stick with it. Should we only allow direct communication, or should we also allow indirect communication?

Let us say for example, NY is earth and California is heaven.

I live in NY and I ask a friend -also here in NY- to call our friend#1 in Cali. Now, this friend#1 of ours in Cali sits by the phone 24 hours 7 days a week. In other words, if my friend calls this friend#1[/b] of ours in Cali, we can be assured that this friend#1[/b] will answer the phone right away, because we knew that this friend#1[/b] in Cali is sitting by the phone 24x7. Direct communication, isn‘t it?

If you ask your friend in NY to call your friend#1 in Cali, that is NOT direct communication, that is INDIRECT communication. You are asking someone else to talk to friend #1 for you.

If I ask my fellow Christians here on earth to pray for me directly to God in heaven, I or we can be assured that this prayers would be heard.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Do not mis-interpret this verse as; the saints here on earth prayed to the angels first, and then the angels brought it up to God. Angels are messengers of God.

If you can be assured that our fellow Christians here on earth would pray for you directly to God in Heaven, why would you not be assured that your fellow Christians in Heaven would pray for you directly to God in Heaven?

On the other hand, I live in NY and I ask a friend -also here in NY- to call our other friend#2 -who also live in Cali- to bring a message to our friend#1 in Cali.

Now, this friend#2, we are not sure if he or she has a phone that is available 24x7.

While of our friend#1 in Cali who sits by the phone 24 hours 7 days a week.

Now who would you call, friend#1 or friend#2?

I know you will still call friend#2 to bring your message to friend#1.

The question is, will it reach, your message, to friend#1?

On the other hand, this friend of yours who lives in NY may not call friend#1 in Cali. So the chances of your friend and friend#2 bringing your message to friend#1 are the same.

 

[BornAgain]

Yes, that's elementary-level stuff.

The Lord Jesus Christ’s teaching on how to pray to God is elementary-level stuff? Christ’s teachings came from the bible. You base your religion on the bible but you ignore the basic facts, and this basic facts you called “elementary-level stuff”

What do you call your ways of praying to your saints and to Mary? Until now, you cannot provide one verse where it says you should pray to Mary and your saints.

You've ignored Revelations 8:3-4, and you've ignored James 5:16. What reason do I have to believe that you won't ignore the next Scripture I provide?

Ignored in what way?
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I do not see dead people in this verse.

The "bowls full of incense" represent the "prayers of the saints" here on earth and not in heaven (Rev.8:3-4).

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

We are debating about prayers coming from earth DIRECTLY to God in heaven, you know, that elementary-level stuff that the Lord Jesus Christ taught His disciples that is written in the bible.

Mt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

If you ask your fellow Christians to pray for you, you are making an indirect prayer via your fellow Christians to God. It's the same thing.

Any Christian’s prayer coming from earth DIRECTLY to God is a direct prayer. “Our Father which art in heaven”

“Our” is like us, or group of people praying together. Remember this is just a pattern on how to address the Father who is in heaven.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

For example, Father God, please help me or us. If I pray to God, who is in heaven, about my fellow Christian or Christians, then I would start the prayer like this; God or Father God, or Abba, please help me or my fellow Christians from all tribulations. That is a direct communication from earth to God which art in heaven.

Indirect prayers are prayers that are coming from earth, via to Mary in heaven, then to God in heaven. Communication is between earth and heaven -that is the direct prayer the Lord Jesus Christ taught in the bible-and not earth, via to heaven/Mary, then to God in heaven -that is the indirect prayer that is not in the bible. If you can find this in the bible then that would be the end of this debate, and I will believe you.

How could you not believe what was written in the bible, but believed what was not written?

Again, failed to see is denial!

The things to be revealed are "unsearchable"because they are beyond the grasp of human knowledge.

Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty "unsearchable" things, which thou knowest not.

 

[Shiranui117]

The Lord Jesus Christ’s teaching on how to pray to God is elementary-level stuff? Christ’s teachings came from the bible. You base your religion on the bible but you ignore the basic facts, and this basic facts you called “elementary-level stuff”

What have I ignored?

What do you call your ways of praying to your saints and to Mary? Until now, you cannot provide one verse where it says you should pray to Mary and your saints.

I call it "asking them to pray to God for me." Also, they're not "my" Saints. They're God's saints. Psalm 37:18: "For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off."

The "bowls full of incense" represent the "prayers of the saints" here on earth and not in heaven (Rev.8:3-4).

Where does it say that in the Bible?

We are debating about prayers coming from earth DIRECTLY to God in heaven, you know, that elementary-level stuff that the Lord Jesus Christ taught His disciples that is written in the bible.

Any Christian’s prayer coming from earth DIRECTLY to God is a direct prayer. “Our Father which art in heaven”

For example, Father God, please help me or us. If I pray to God, who is in heaven, about my fellow Christian or Christians, then I would start the prayer like this; God or Father God, or Abba, please help me or my fellow Christians from all tribulations. That is a direct communication from earth to God which art in heaven.

Indirect prayers are prayers that are coming from earth, via to Mary in heaven, then to God in heaven. Communication is between earth and heaven -that is the direct prayer the Lord Jesus Christ taught in the bible-and not earth, via to heaven/Mary, then to God in heaven -that is the indirect prayer that is not in the bible. If you can find this in the bible then that would be the end of this debate, and I will believe you.

So the prayer of a saint in Heaven to God must be even more direct than the prayers of those of us on earth, yes?

We already have the elders in heaven (who are human saints) offering the prayers of the people to God. What other Biblical support are you looking for?

Revelations 5:8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

There you have it. Twenty-four elders (humans, not angels) in Heaven, in front of Jesus, offering to Him the prayers of all the saints. Proof of the saints offering our prayers to Jesus, Who then offers them to His Father. Straight out of Scripture, what you call "indirect prayer." Now will you believe me?

Again, failed to see is denial!

Denied what, exactly?

Mediator in Greek is, MESITES, one who mediates between two parties with a view to producing peace.

Christ is the only mediator between God and men, 1Tim2:5. Now, to be able for Christ and the Holy Spirit to intercede for anyone, one has to pass the state of Christ being as a MEDIATOR to make PEACE with God. We call this justification by faith.

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

I am not talking about sacraments here that one has to do first before going to the next state or phase. Upon believing that Christ is the ONLY MEDIATOR, intercessions simultaneously begins, there is no time gap here in between.

Now, IF one is still in the process or state of understanding or not understanding at all the meaning, that Christ is the only MEDIATOR between God and yourself, -remember the meaning of mediator is, two parties with a view to producing PEACE. SEE Rom5:1 again- then you have not reached the state of intercession.

The question is; how can the Holy Spirit intercedes if one CANNOT ACCEPT that Christ is the only MEDIATOR between God and men?

Mk 15:37 Then Jesus uttered another loud cry and breathed his last.
Mk 15:38 And the curtain in the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

In the Old Testament, the Israelites OR the people could not go through this curtain, but when Christ became the ultimate -MEDIATOR- sacrificed; this curtain was opened-up for everyone to communicate directly to God without a mediator or an O.T. high priest except for Christ who became our High Priest.

The following verses are one of the most beautiful verses one could ever read in the New Testament.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Christ's body replaced the “torn” curtain to the Most Holiest Place, and through that curtain, -Christ's body- is the Shekinah glory of the almighty God, and that is where Christians are standing right now, between God and Christ in PEACE.

Now, we go to,

Intercessions in Greek is ENTUNCHANO, primarily to fall in with, meet with in order to converse; then, to make petition, especially to make intercession, plead with a person, either for; examples of for are,

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

We do not see others, other than Christ and the Holy Spirit, making intercessions for Christians here on earth. In other words, The Lord Jesus Christ is the sole MEDIATOR and INTERCESSOR between GOD and men.

OR against others; Examples of against, in Acts25:24, against Paul; in Romans11:2, of Elijah in pleading with God against Israel.

Before Christ or the Holy Spirit can intercede, one has to pass that state of MEDIATORSHIP of Christ first. In other words, upon believing that Christ died, was buried, and resurrected on the third day, intercessions begins simultaneously. One has to make PEACE with God through Christ’s MEDIATORSHIP first before intercessions begins.

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So we Christians can't intercede for each other? We can't plead to God to have mercy on our fellow Christians? We can't make a petition with God to have mercy on others? We can't pray for each other, like the Bible says we can?

Sure, it states in Scripture that Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. Where does it say that Jesus is the only one Who can intercede for us? Also, first you say that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, then you say that Jesus is the only intercessor between God and man. You contradicted yourself. Which is it? Is Jesus the only intercessor for us, or can the Spirit intercede for us as well?

 

[BornAgain]

Sure, it states in Scripture that Christ is the only Mediator between God and man. Where does it say that Jesus is the only one Who can*intercede*for us?

Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You cannot get it any clearer than this one.

We could apply a simple deductive reasoning here, or the one we use everyday, our common sense.

A deductive reasoning consisting of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion; for example,
All human beings are mortal, the major premise,
Mary and the dead saints were all human beings, the minor premise,
therefore, Mary and the dead saints were all mortal, the conclusion.

According to Romans 8:34:
Did Mary and the dead saints died for you? NO!
Did they see corruption when they died? YES! Because they are mortal.
Did they rise again for you? NO! Because they are mortal.
Are they sitting at right hand of God right now making intercession for you? NO! Because they are mortal.

So, how do you think they, Mary and the dead saints, could intercede between God and you?

Do you believe that Christ is truly God?

If you do believed that Christ is really God, then where did you base that belief?

Did you read that in the bible? If yes, then you should base all your belief according to the bible.

If it did not say anything about praying or asking Mary, or any other dead saints in the bible then don’t do it.

All these [Praying to Mary and the dead saints] were inventions of human minds. You want to be as religious, as much, as the next person, but you are ignoring all the facts that could make you a true religious person you wanted to be. All written facts were presented in front of you, and all you have to do is believe it or deny it. But how can you deny if it was staring right in front of you?

Failed to see the TRUTH is denial!

The things to be revealed by GOD are*"unsearchable" because they are beyond the grasp of human knowledge.

Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty*"unsearchable"*things, which thou knowest not.

 

[BornAgain]

Also, first you say that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us, then you say that Jesus is the only intercessor between God and man. You contradicted yourself. Which is it? Is Jesus the only intercessor for us, or can the Spirit intercede for us as well?

In your religion what is the difference between God the Father, the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit?

 

[BornAgain]

So the prayer of a saint in Heaven to God must be even more direct than the prayers of those of us on earth, yes?

NO! NO WAY! How could it be? When you pray to Mary/dead saints as your intercessors between you and God, whom are you ignoring? You are refusing to pay your respect to The Lord Jesus Christ as the sole INTERCESSOR between God IN HEAVEN and men HERE ON EARTH. You are bypassing, overlooking, disregarding what the Lord Jesus Christ did for you ON THE CROSS. The Lord Jesus Christ is the one who MEDIATED/DIED/SACRIFICED so you can have PEACE with God, and because of your man made religion you are ignoring, bypassing, overlooking, disregarding the work of Christ on the cross.

>(~));> >(~));> >(~));>

Failed to see the TRUTH is denial!

The things to be revealed by GOD are*"unsearchable" because they are beyond the grasp of human knowledge.

Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty*"unsearchable"*things, which thou knowest not.

 

[Windwalker]

My goodness. All this fuss about how you are "supposed to" or not supposed to pray! Why not make it simple? Do what works for you! If it's effective, then do it! If it's not, then do something else.

You honestly think God is like a magic machine you must push the buttons in the exactly sequence to get him to spit out a golden coin?? That's what this suggests when we argue the "correct" form of prayer. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Shiranui117]

NO! NO WAY! How could it be? When you pray to Mary/dead saints as your intercessors between you and God, whom are you ignoring? You are refusing to pay your respect to The Lord Jesus Christ as the sole INTERCESSOR between God IN HEAVEN and men HERE ON EARTH.

You are bypassing, overlooking, disregarding what the Lord Jesus Christ did for you ON THE CROSS. The Lord Jesus Christ is the one who MEDIATED/DIED/SACRIFICED so you can have PEACE with God, and because of your man made religion you are ignoring, bypassing, overlooking, disregarding the work of Christ on the cross.

Whoa whoa whoa, where do you get that idea from? You have no idea of how I pray. You have no idea how often I call upon the name of the Lord, praying, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner." You have no idea how often I pray to God directly over and above asking anyone--on earth or in Heaven--to pray for me. You have no right to say that I refuse to pay my respects to Jesus, and you have no right to say that I ignore Him, when you have absolutely no idea how I pray. You don't know my prayer life or my relationship with Christ, so don't even try to judge me when you don't know any of that. It is incredibly un-Christlike and shameful for you to say such things. I would never accuse you of any such thing without knowing your prayer life and how you pray. I would never accuse you of rejecting the Bible for not being comfortable asking the Saints to pray to Jesus for you.

Also, it looks like you're saying that Jesus is the sole intercessor between God and man? So much for the Holy Spirit interceding for us in Romans 8.

Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You cannot get it any clearer than this one.

We could apply a simple deductive reasoning here, or the one we use everyday, our common sense.

A deductive reasoning consisting of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion; for example,
All human beings are mortal, the major premise,
Mary and the dead saints were all human beings, the minor premise,
therefore, Mary and the dead saints were all mortal, the conclusion.

Yes. And?

According to Romans 8:34:
Did Mary and the dead saints died for you? NO!
Did they see corruption when they died? YES! Because they are mortal.
Did they rise again for you? NO! Because they are mortal.
Are they sitting at right hand of God right now making intercession for you? NO! Because they are mortal.

So, how do you think they, Mary and the dead saints, could intercede between God and you?

The same way that everyone else on earth prays for me. Also, didn't we already discuss John 11:25-26?

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”


The Saints may be dead in the flesh, but they are truly alive in Christ. Didn't we already talk about the elders before Jesus' throne, who aren't angels, but are men, dead men, offering to Jesus the prayers of the saints? I want you to directly address Revelations 5:8, and John 11:25-26, and Revelations 8:3-4. Take the text, take my words about them, and give a straight-up answer. No more dodging. This debate isn't that hard.

Do you believe that Christ is truly God?

If you do believed that Christ is really God, then where did you base that belief?

Did you read that in the bible? If yes, then you should base all your belief according to the bible.

I read it in the Bible and the rest of the Apostolic Tradition (writings/teachings/lives of the students of the Apostles, and their students, etc, etc), of which the Bible is a part. You cannot properly interpret the Bible without the guidance of the Apostles and their Tradition, as it says in Acts 8:

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

In your religion what is the difference between God the Father, the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit?

To quote the Nicene Creed...

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father by Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and was made man. He was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate and suffered and was buried, And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures. And He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

Now that we have the relevant part of the Creed up, time to give a basic rundown of the three Persons.

All three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are uncreated, and each are God fully. The Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is one in essence and undivided. The Father is the Source of the Trinity; there is one God because there is one Father. The Creed explains the Son thoroughly enough. The Spirit is also not made, and all three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are co-eternal; there was never a time when one of Them was not. Only the Son was ever made man. He is the sole Mediator between God and man because He alone is fully God and man. The Holy Spirit makes intercession for us along with Jesus, but only Jesus (God the Son) is the Mediator.

 

[Shiranui117]

My goodness. All this fuss about how you are "supposed to" or not supposed to pray! Why not make it simple? Do what works for you! If it's effective, then do it! If it's not, then do something else.

You honestly think God is like a magic machine you must push the buttons in the exactly sequence to get him to spit out a golden coin?? That's what this suggests when we argue the "correct" form of prayer. Absolutely ridiculous.

In my defense, I'm just trying to argue that there are acceptable forms of prayer and asking people to pray for us, not that it's correct and you HAVE to do it this way or that way.

 

[BornAgain]

My goodness. All this fuss about how you are "supposed to" or not supposed to pray! Why not make it simple? Do what works for you! If it's effective, then do it! If it's not, then do something else.

You honestly think God is like a magic machine you must push the buttons in the exactly sequence to get him to spit out a golden coin?? That's what this suggests when we argue the "correct" form of prayer. Absolutely ridiculous.

I think if I’m not mistaken you are the one who loves to quote Paul. “I die daily” I remember you wrote that. How do you “die daily”? You don’t even know what Paul went through when he said that, and there you are trying to look like Paul. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Shiranui117]

Hold up here, everyone cool our jets. This bickering, back-and-forth judging is getting out of hand, even for my liking. And I've been in some pretty coarse, rough-and-tumble conversations. How about we all agree to take a hint from Ephesians 4:2 and carry on this conversation "with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love." All in favor?

 

[BornAgain]

Hold up here, everyone cool our jets. This bickering, back-and-forth judging is getting out of hand, even for my liking. And I've been in some pretty coarse, rough-and-tumble conversations. How about we all agree to take a hint from Ephesians 4:2 and carry on this conversation "with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love." All in favor?

Ephesians 4:2 and carry on this conversation "with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love." All in favor?

Paul was addressing Christians here.

*edit*

 

[Windwalker]

In my defense, I'm just trying to argue that there are acceptable forms of prayer and asking people to pray for us, not that it's correct and you HAVE to do it this way or that way.

Clearly, you fall in the category of doing what works for you. I'm criticizing those who miss out on what works for themselves because they're hung up on God expecting things be done in some "proper" form. To me, all that God "cares" about is you finding Peace, not which turtledove to sacrifice on which day of the year. If looking to some saint to pray on your behalf brings about a good within yourself, then how is it wrong? On the contrary, if it brought about good for you, to then not do so because you're hung up that God would somehow "disapprove", for some strange reason, then you are wrong to not do it! It's that simple, actually.

 

[Windwalker]

I think if I’m not mistaken you are the one who loves to quote Paul. “I die daily” I remember you wrote that. How do you “die daily”? You don’t even know what Paul went through when he said that, and there you are trying to look like Paul. You should be ashamed of yourself.

What on earth are you talking about, and how do you place yourself as God in judgement of me?

Are you capable of civilized discourse, or are you just some blood-thirsty tribal warrior for his god?

 

[BornAgain]

What on earth are you talking about, and how do you place yourself as God in judgement of me?

Are you capable of civilized discourse, or are you just some blood-thirsty tribal warrior for his god?

What god are you talking about? I hope that you are talking about the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob?

This is what you wrote, “My goodness. All this fuss about how you are "supposed to" or not supposed to pray!”

“Why not make it simple?”
“Do what works for you!”
“If it's effective, then do it!”
“If it's not, then do something else.”

Is this your kind of god?

“You honestly think God is like a magic machine”

Maybe your god is really like a magic machine. If its not effective you switch to another god. How many gods do you have?

I hope I am not preaching and badgering you today windwalker.

 

[Windwalker]

“Why not make it simple?”
“Do what works for you!”
“If it's effective, then do it!”
“If it's not, then do something else.”

Is this your kind of god?

yes

“You honestly think God is like a magic machine”

Maybe your god is really like a magic machine. If its not effective you switch to another god. How many gods do you have?

There is only one God. Believe me, in no way do I think of God as a magic machine. God isn't hung up on forms. To be hung up on forms, makes him "not God" to me.

I hope I am not preaching and badgering you today windwalker.

I don't think you can help your zeal. You see the world in very tribal, warrior-like ways. It's what you know to do.

Hopefully through discussions like these, you will see there are other ways to look at the same things, and they aren't "wrong", but just different than how you think. Possible?

 

[Shiranui117]

*edit*

How do you know that Windwalker has no clue what we're talking about? On what basis do you say this?

 

[BornAgain]

There is only one God. Believe me, in no way do I think of God as a magic machine. God isn't hung up on forms. To be hung up on forms, makes him "not God" to me.

I don't think you can help your zeal. You see the world in very tribal, warrior-like ways. It's what you know to do.

Hopefully through discussions like these, you will see there are other ways to look at the same things, and they aren't "wrong", but just different than how you think. Possible?

You really sound like a saint right now, a true peacemaker, with all these soft talking.

You should read your post again. You came out of nowhere and post this without even giving it a thought.

“My goodness. All this fuss about how you are "supposed to" or not supposed to pray! Why not make it simple? Do what works for you! If it's effective, then do it! If it's not, then do something else.”

“All this fuss”?

You know what fuss is? Unnecessary! All these prayers were unnecessary to you and yet you are telling me that you believed that there is only one God. That was a quick turnaround about your faith. One minute you are making fun on how people should pray to God, the next minute you declared your innocency.

How do you pray effectively? How do you know if your prayer is the right way of praying, when you wrote “Do what works for you! If it's effective, then do it! If it's not, then do something else.”

Do you really think that God works the way your brains work? You should examine yourself.

Not badgering or preaching here.