Praying to god for help, does it really make any sense?

[Skwim]

Which do you think would be the more likely outcome? There is no cure.

This isn't the way most Christians look at god. Most seem to think he's omnipotent: He can do anything he wants. Even curing the incurable.

At the same token, there is no cure for death. A person could pray all day and night, asking God they will never die. If I was a gambling guy I would bet he would still die just like the rest of us.

I don't think anyone is so stupid as to think they could never die, but many Christians do feel god has a say in when they die, and that prayer can affect that.

Praying to god for help, does it really make any sense?

When you pray to the small 'g' god for 'wants' in your life, instead of needs, your prayers usually never get past the ceiling. When you pray to the One True God with faith, He hears you and answers in His time frame, not ours.

Curious as to how you come by this little "fact." Also, it's amusing that you make some kind of distinction between god referenced with a small "g" and god referenced with a capital "g."

The Bible says that He knows our needs even before we ask Him.

That would certainly be in keeping with an omniscient deity.

And also, we need to petition things that are according to His will for us.

Gotta wonder why. He knows what we want but wants to be asked nonetheless? Truthfully, this doesn't sound like a psychologically healthy god.

He knows our needs and wants to fulfill our needs.

But still needs to be asked. Hmmmmm

He also likes to be

thanked and appreciated.

Now this really speaks to a needy ego.


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[Watchmen]

What I've always found peculiar about prayers asking for assistance is that they assume god is either

1) unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business. OR. . . . . . .

2) he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least. "If you don't ask me nicely, yes, I will let little Johnny die."

Both of which touch on the question of why god supposedly helps some and not others. Got any clue?

So, am I missing something here, or in the end is god simply fickle?

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I think what you're missing is that prayer isn't for God. It's for us. It's about the humbling experience of recognizing we don't get everything we want or need and that sometimes we need to ask for help. It's recognizing our own limitations and weaknesses and trials, which recognitions will make us better.

 

[Skwim]

I think what you're missing is that prayer isn't for God. It's for us.

This is completely understood. In such a prayer no one is asking that god benefit, but that the subject of the prayer does.

It's about the humbling experience of recognizing we don't get everything we want or need and that sometimes we need to ask for help.

Ah . . . . even a three-year-old knows this.

It's recognizing our own limitations and weaknesses and trials, which recognitions will make us better.

No it isn't. A prayer asking for X is only a prayer asking for X. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


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[roger1440]

This isn't the way most Christians look at god. Most seem to think he's omnipotent: He can do anything he wants. Even curing the incurable.

I had posted this on a similar thread today:

Notice in the "Lord's Prayer" it says nothing about changing the world. It says nothing about winning the lottery, helping a sick friend or getting a new shinny car or have a house drop on your enemy. What it does say is ask for God's help to be more "holy" or "righteous". Use what ever ever lofty term you want. This very simple prayer is an brief outline on what to ask of God. According to this prayer we should ask God to change how we live within the world. It doesn't say anything about changing the world within we live. "Our daily bread" we ask for is not for the stomach, it's food to nourish the soul.

Matthew 6:9–13
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/a-question-of-prayer-and-answers.191540/page-2#post-4919033

 

[Quagmire]

What I've always found peculiar about prayers asking for assistance is that they assume god is either . . .

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Wonder if anyone else has ever "found" that.

 

[Quagmire]

Thing is, I give people here credit enough to recognize whether a statement or question pertains to them or not. That you evidently cannot is unfortunate, but


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Sort of like, "People who use Popeye as their avatar are child molesters. Oh, but if you have Popeye as your avatar and you're not a child molester, obviously I wasn't talking about you so why would you be offended"?

Makes perfect sense now.

 

[VioletVortex]

From my personal experience, deities can offer immaterial help- mainly advice. It's very rare that they directly provide physical help. While I don't think one should rely on praying to deities for all of their problems, it can be a supplement to one's own work in getting through obstacles.

 

[mojtaba]

Right, God does not change but people do. God's side of the door is always open, but on our side we can choose, lock, open or ignore.

Agreed.

 

[mojtaba]

Whatever.....would you like to actually address the OP?????????

I meant,
This is not correct that God only gives the needs of those that ask from Him.
Indeed, when a atheist tries to achive a thing or a goal, his/her trying is indeed a kind of the prayer, though he/she does not ask or believe in Him, and God will help the atheist to achive his/her goal.

The OP said that God only gives to those who ask their needs directly from Him( he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least. "If you don't ask me nicely, yes, I will let little Johnny die." ).

 

[Sonofason]

What I've always found peculiar about prayers asking for assistance is that they assume god is either

1) unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business. OR. . . . . . .

2) he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least. "If you don't ask me nicely, yes, I will let little Johnny die."

Both of which touch on the question of why god supposedly helps some and not others. Got any clue?

So, am I missing something here, or in the end is god simply fickle?

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The mind is a powerful tool. If you think right, you tend to act right. If you pray earnestly for God to help, you tend to ponder your needs. When you think about what you need, it is more likely that you will search it out and get what you need. If you pray to God to help others, your mind will be upon helping others, and the more likely it will be that you yourself help others.

And I believe God does hear prayers, and in my opinion, He can and oftentimes does help.

 

[Sonofason]

Sorry, but on the chance that I may be misunderstanding this, please rephrase using common English grammar.


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Interestingly, I understood it. I wonder why.

 

[Sonofason]

From a deistic perspective...

Prayers should be ones of thanks and gratitude, not "I need something." The needy prayers will seemingly go unanswered. Let's dive into a couple of key points:

1. If God is omniscient, then God is aware of what you need before you ask for it. Logic would dictate that if God truly loved and cared about you as an individual, then God would intervene. God would cure our ailments, stop wars, save Little Johnny, etc. The fact that wars continue, Little Johnny dies, and people suffer, pretty much rules out #1.

2. God, not wanting to be the puppet master, gave us free will. Whatever choices we make, we deal with the consequences of our actions or inactions. The result is that God may truly care and love us, but does not intervene by way of Its convictions. People choose to wage war. People choose to commit crimes. People choose to do things that may cause cancer.

If #2 is true, which is the usual deist belief, then God does not answer prayers because of free will. Why then offer prayers of thanks to a seemingly "hands off" God? Because we were given life and the freedom of choice. It is our way of honoring the Creator.

Addendum:

I have heard of people praying their hearts out over something (Little Johnny dying of a brain tumor) and when the prayers go unanswered, they ask "why?" Some of the answers other people have given are either cop outs or downright cruel. For example:

The Lord works in mysterious ways. We don't see God's bigger picture. Everything happens for a reason. All will be revealed in due time.

Your faith was not true. Your faith was not strong enough. You did not pray hard enough. You did not truly believe.

Both are complete garbage. The first set are recited by those that don't actually have an answer but want to make the person(s) feel better. The second are recited by cold, heartless a**holes that need a lesson in civility.

The real answer is that God gave us free will, and our choices affect the world we live in; past, present and future.

So the evil people of the world, the backstabbers, gossipers, the liars, the thieves etc. get into a rough spot and all the sudden start praying for help. I'd smack them down too. We do not ever deserve God's help. But sometimes, God answers prayers, especially to the faithful.

 

[Sonofason]

This is completely understood. In such a prayer no one is asking that god benefit, but that the subject of the prayer does.

Ah . . . . even a three-year-old knows this.

No it isn't. A prayer asking for X is only a prayer asking for X. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


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Actually, in my opinion he is right. Do you actually think God needs us to pray for stuff? No, we need us to pray for ourselves and for others. Do you think God needs our worship? No, we need to hear ourselves worshiping God. It does us good. And God notices.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm feeling good right now so I'm going to play some devil's advocacy. (Irony, considering the side in taking.)
In the movie Serenity, River is discovered to be a fully awakened psychic. Mal, another character, begins to talk to her at the end of the last scene. He stops and says, "I guess you already know what I was going to say." She replies "Yes, but I like to hear you say it anyway." Mal smiles and continues the dialogue because she likes to hear it and because he gets the chance to be an active participant in communicating.

Being an atheist I don't put much stock in prayers as far as you getting some intangible outside help. But I can see the value in telling yourself your problems. Meditation is good for that too. Let's you work through and order and understand your problems in your own mind. Sometimes having a listener there, even if they don't contribute to the brainstorming, helps more in an unburdening sort of way.

Now I grant that there are definitely people out there who pray expecting things, as if a god or gods or God didn't already know their needs and desires and didn't already know exactly how much aid they'd be getting. But I can also see how someone would argue that, for them, it's not about that. And mean it, too.

 

[psychoslice]

For me prayer is a form of begging, we take our shopping list to whoever we pray to and hope we will be rewarded, if we are rewarded we call it a miracle, if we are not we just say that was his will.........you can't go wrong lol.

 

[Neo Deist]

So the evil people of the world, the backstabbers, gossipers, the liars, the thieves etc. get into a rough spot and all the sudden start praying for help. I'd smack them down too. We do not ever deserve God's help. But sometimes, God answers prayers, especially to the faithful.

What you call an answered prayer, I call a coincidental outcome that would have happened anyway.

 

[Sonofason]

What you call an answered prayer, I call a coincidental outcome that would have happened anyway.

I wouldn't call it anything except perhaps an answered prayer. But for sure, I would be grateful that my prayer was answered.

 

[Skwim]

And I believe God does hear prayers, and in my opinion, He can and oftentimes does help.

So, do you think he helps because he's been asked to, or would help regardless of such prayers?

Do you actually think God needs us to pray for stuff?

Certainly, which was my observation in my OP:

"prayers asking for assistance. . . assume god is either

"unaware that help is needed, which if true certainly doesn't speak well for his omniscience. So prayer is sort of a wake-up call to god to tend to business."​

OR

"he is aware, but has decided not to help until ask, which to me is kind of petty to say the least."​

In both cases god needs to be asked.

No, we need us to pray for ourselves and for others.

And isn't that what people who pray for his help doing "pray[ing] for ourselves and for others"?

Do you think God needs our worship?

I don't know about need, but Christians say god wants to be worshiped.

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[james bond]

seems like a legitimate question to me.....would you like to take a stab at answering it?

It's a legit question to you, so you should answer. Why do you think it's legit?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

early Buddhism,

There is no Buddhist school called "early Buddhism", and we don't know much about the "early" period. Saying you follow "early Buddhism" is nonsensical and pretentious.

You are referring to the suttas of the Pali Canon, I wish you would just say that.