Predestination

[Mykola]

And I have answered his question; there is a predestined path to hell for him (if he makes the choice to go down that route), but there is another predestined path for him to go to heaven.

Mmm... Michel, until this moment I was under the strongest conviction that predestination meaning was 'previously planned and fixed route to some point'.
Sorry, even if predestination existed, one would not be able to be predestined to go to hell and to heaven at the same time.

Another option: you & me are talking about different predestinations here...

(not that I believe in Hell, anyway;

"...follower of Christ..." - am I to contact my ophthalmologist?

I am coming to the conclusion more and more that life here is hell).

How's that?
Can you give some proofs to support such an assumption?
But firstly, what d'you mean by hell?

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

There are certain things that can not be argued as far as predestination goes. For example, we as humans are all predestined to one day die, etc. If there are exceptions to the insistence that there is no such thing as predestination as this, then logic commands that there is at least a possibility for more.

As far as Zombieharlot being predestined to go to hell goes, even with their testimony given in the OP and my possition on this subject I could not state buyond a shadow of a doubt that they are going to hell for the simple fact that I am not God and do not have omniscience. We do not know how the rest of Zombieharlot's life will be played out until they die. One might even be able to make an argument for the possibility of God working in their life due to their curriosity of this issue (Rom. 3:11).

As far as the fall of Lucifer goes, this comes down to what exactly is evil which is a highly debated subissue when it comes to debating things like this. I posted a thread on this issue before but will state once again what I believe as far as this issue goes.

First off I beleive we do this subject matter a great deal of injustice when we treat the word "evil" as a noun rather than an adjetive. From a Christian presupposition, despite the fact that God is omnipotent, there are certain things that God can not do. Take for example God can not create another God equl to Himself. Just the fact that God is not created makes this impossible. With that fact known, it logically follows that everything that is created is less than God in all aspects, even goodness. This gives clearer meaning to what was meant in Gen. 1:31 "And God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good...". Now, if we take James' description of how temptation occurs (James 1:14) " But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust " we can logically conclude that accountability lies solely in the offenders hand when it comes to temptation and sin. This can be said not only of Lucifer's fall but also of Adam and Eve's fall. If Eve did not already have the capacity in her mind and heart to be tempted then the serpent in the garden could've talked until it's tongue fell out and it would've done absolutley no good.

Every created being that has a will has the predisposed capacity to do evil and the only way of avoiding this is through divine help.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on this issue concerning evil and the fall of lucifer and humanity. I sure wish people would address my posts in here. It's starting to hurt my feelings Are my posts that hard to understand or am I that bad of a person?

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[Mykola]

"Evil...is an internal reality from which we run." Ravi Zacharias, "Jesus Among Other Gods"

Generally agreeing on your post, let me ask you...

Can you please tell me why did you make these words your signature?

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

Can you please tell me why did you make these words your signature?

Well, it is from a book that I have read that I really enjoyed and that particular quote from it really stuck out to me and I thought it would help keep things in their proper perspective. If you haven't read the book "Jesus among other gods" by Ravi Zacharias, then I would highly recommend it. Mr. Zacharias is an excellent apologist from India which gives him extensive knowledge about many eastern religions just due to his upbringing. Thanks for asking!

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[Mykola]

Well, it is from a book that I have read that I really enjoyed and that particular quote from it really stuck out to me and I thought it would help keep things in their proper perspective. If you haven't read the book "Jesus among other gods" by Ravi Zacharias, then I would highly recommend it. Mr. Zacharias is an excellent apologist from India which gives him extensive knowledge about many eastern religions just due to his upbringing. Thanks for asking!

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

Ok, I can see now...
Thank you!

But...

But, I cannot agree that evil is "internal reality". Maybe it does make more sense in the context, but not as it is in your signature...
Still, this is a much broader topic - Good vs. Evil, so here I've just set forth my opinion.

And, can you please give me a link to the electronic version of this book (if you knopw any)?

 

[zombieharlot]

Anyways, those are my thoughts on this issue concerning evil and the fall of lucifer and humanity. I sure wish people would address my posts in here. It's starting to hurt my feelings Are my posts that hard to understand or am I that bad of a person?

Sorry. I just realized that you posted a while ago. The posts following yours seemed to stray off of topic so I kind of just ignored all of the posts. Again, I'm sorry. And right now, I don't have the time to really look into these posts and give full responses. I will be sure to get back to them by this weekend though.

 

[zombieharlot]

I Usually don't like getting into a discussion this late in the game, but being as how this just so happens to be my favorite topic of debate I couldn't help myself. I decided to go throught the 140 some odd posts and go from there.

I wholeheartedly believe in predestination from a philosophical and Biblical standpoint and think the whole notion of "free will" is illogical and comes from human pride and ignorance or a unwillingness to truly deal with the issue based on human pride. For the longest time I insisted that humans have free will until I objectively read a debate between two scolars on the subject. From there I have done more studying on the subject and can not help but come to the conclusions noted above.

The first thing I have noticed about this thread is a lack of definition for the words "free will" and "predestination". For a hint on what true "free will" is, Just the ability to choose is not it. That is simply a will:
*** The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 ***
Will \Will\, n. [OE. wille, AS. willa; akin to OFries. willa,
OS. willeo, willio, D. wil, G. wille, Icel. vili, Dan.
villie, Sw. vilja, Goth wilja. See {Will}, v.]
[1913 Webster]
1. The power of choosing; the faculty or endowment of the
soul by which it is capable of choosing; the faculty or
power of the mind by which we decide to do or not to do;
the power or faculty of preferring or selecting one of two
or more objects.

For those who believe in "free will", there needs to be a qualification of what choices need to be "free" of in order to truly be a "free will" decision.

As far as predestination goes, the Biblical rendition of the word in the NT (Rom. 8, Eph. 1, etc) is the greek word "proorizo", which means preset boundaries, not that God controls us like puppets. That would be "Hypercalvinism" which is a heresy.

From a logical perspectice, if predestination, which is taught in the Bible, and free will true existed together, there would be no need for this thread to have been so long in trying to reconcile the two's harmonic existence. The fact is that the two ideas are contrary to each other. This is not a paradox but a contradiction by definition. God is either fully sovereign or he is not sovereign at all. R.C Sproul put it well in his book "Chosen by God" when he stated "If there is one rebel molecule outside of God's control, then he is not sovereign".

As far as Rom. 9 goes, there is no other way of interpreting a chaprter emphasizing God's sovereignty than the obvious one in black and white.

1. God predestins people before they are born (Rom 9:10-13) " And not only this, but there was Rebeka also, when she had concieved twins by one man; our father Isaac; for thought the twins were not born yet, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, it was said to her " The older will serve the younger". Just as it is written "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated"
Even Jeremiah recognized this fact (Jer. 1:5) "Before I formed you in the wonb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

2. God does predestin people to heaven and hell (Rom 9:19-23) "You will say to me then, "why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God. althought willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."

God's omniscience does not equal his soveriegnty and His sovereignty does not equal that we are puppets. We still have the ability to chose, but because of our predisposition to sin (Rom 3:10-13,23), the only choices we have the ability to make without divine help are sinfull ones. When it comes down to the "nitty gritty", it all has to do with influence, and not just divine influence but any influence.



To emphasize this verse solely is an outright denial of the context of this verse which is the "any" and "all" refered to in this verse is "us", or fellow believers, not the whole world.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

Okay SoliD. Tell me if I get your point. God does not dictate our choices, but he molds us a certain way. And by the way he molds us we inevitably end up in heaven or hell.

 

[zombieharlot]

Your feeling does matter, of course.
But...

But, it is you who can decide what is a part of you and what's not!
You can EITHER belong to sin, that is to be a slave of sin, with no reward besides the temporary "pleasures of sin"; OR, you can choose God to belong to - that is being His what? being His child, friend! and not being lonely or helpless any longer in this life...

I think that to some extent I can decide what is a part of me, but not fully. What I am saying is that I would be unhappy following Christ because of all of the "sin" I would have to leave behind.

His selfishness? Friend, you seem to miss some point to make such a strange assertion...
God is Somebody you can rely on, not cope with...

If a tornado is coming, you can build either wall or a windmill. Hint: windmill is a right choice!

You're the one that said I need to cope with my problems.

Firstly, can you please tell me the purpose of your cross-dressing? Why d'you do that?

I've honestly done it since I was five years old. Even then, I would sneak around wearing my sister's clothing. I've grown up hating a lot of things that are considered masculine. And despite what some people might think at first, I look at myself as a male. I don't wish I was a female or anything like that. I'm even a heterosexual, which is counter intuitive to what some people think. I just don't understand why we have to have these gender "roles". Cross-dressing just makes me feel good about myself. Now apply this to what I first said in this post about leaving "sin" behind.

Nope, wrong.
You seem to confuse two different things: CAUSE/EFFECT relationships and PERSONAL INFLUENCES/CHOICE relationships.

I know as far as psychology is concerned that cause and effect relationships and personal influence and choice relationships are two different things. But with the way I view predestination, the type of relationship doesn't even matter.

That's bad, but that was the case... Not any longer, is it?

It's still very much the case. The difference now is that I've grown quite far apart from my mother. I repress myself a great deal because she won't let me believe differently. Anything that contracts with her beliefs becomes a huge issue. Repression is my answer.

Oh, no! Disregard the 'taste issue' in this case, 'cause the truth is not the matter of taste...

Exactly my point! If she wasn't so concerned with me doing things her way, then I would be allowed to go to other churches where I am more comfortable and can still learn the "truth". Even if you like a subject matter, it isn't enjoyable if you're discussing it with people you aren't fond of.

With that all in mind, let's forget for a while about your mother and let's try to look at you-God relation. You and Him only, no mothers etc.

The point is - you can come to Christ no matter who your mother and regardless of what she does. Whether she is a pious Christian, hypocritical pharisee or even raving lunatic - you have your personal relationship with God.

Perhaps. But the example that has been set before me by God Himself isn't a very good one. My mother being the example.

Nothing complex, and... not correct

Again, you seem to have mixed up CAUSE/EFFECT issue with the PERSONAL CHOICES one.

I'm not getting the two confused. You may program a robot to behave a certain way, but you may not have to tell it what to do. Just like this, God has created me a certain way and knows what my bahaviors and choices are and will be.

Let's separate cockroaches and cutlets...

1) You believe your mother has been cheating on you? Fine, it could be so.
2) You believe that God has been cheating on you? Absolutely not.

Absolutely not? Any proof?

The relevance is that emotions aren't the best advisers, while the reason and logic always are.

Sounds to me like you're saying salvation is gained in apathy.

 

[Mykola]

I think that to some extent I can decide what is a part of me, but not fully. What I am saying is that I would be unhappy following Christ because of all of the "sin" I would have to leave behind.

Emmm...
The only thing you should understand to cope with this, is that what you gain being with God is beyond comparison with what you lose; and reversely, what you lose not being with God (now and in the eternity) is not to be compared with what makes you happy ('happy'?) now...

You're the one that said I need to cope with my problems.

Yes, I did, and I say it again.
More that that: you need and you can cope.

I've honestly done it since I was five years old. Even then, I would sneak around wearing my sister's clothing.

I myself was wetting my pants in childhood. But am doing this no more, since I'm no more child.
As a child, you didn't need a reason to do something, you were doing anything just because - not so now, when you're adult.

I've grown up hating a lot of things that are considered masculine. And despite what some people might think at first, I look at myself as a male.

Me too - I mean a hate many, you know, masculine things - being macho, boasting of love affairs, discussing expensive cars etc, but I think that it is not what really masuline.

I don't wish I was a female or anything like that. I'm even a heterosexual, which is counter intuitive to what some people think.

Not very, but rather yes.

I just don't understand why we have to have these gender "roles".

Why the Earth revolves around the Sun? Why we have that?
Why should we eat?
Why do we see by eyes and hear by ears, and not the opposite?
Why?...

Shortly: God has created man and woman.

I'm a man, and should say that I love what you call 'having roles'. I mean, I enjoy communicating with women, and cannot imagine the world any other way...

Cross-dressing just makes me feel good about myself. Now apply this to what I first said in this post about leaving "sin" behind.

Don't think that I had been saint before I became saint.
I had to leave behind (and struggle with others just until right now) many things that pleased me much, very much.

I know as far as psychology is concerned that cause and effect relationships and personal influence and choice relationships are two different things. But with the way I view predestination, the type of relationship doesn't even matter.

It must some revolutionary new way, because I can clearly see, that the type of relationships matters a lot.
Actually, if we had only CAUSE-EFFECT relationships (C/Er) - we would be predestined to go somewhere.
Now that we have PERSONAL CHOICE relationships (PCr) in the world based on C/Er, - we are not predestined to go anywhere.

It's still very much the case. The difference now is that I've grown quite far apart from my mother. I repress myself a great deal because she won't let me believe differently. Anything that contracts with her beliefs becomes a huge issue. Repression is my answer.

Okay, so we have a battle of two repressions. Its no-win situation.
She presses you to believe something, not giving any proofs nor ground for the belief (which is destructive and illogocal, let alone its being unbiblical at all); in your turn, you just refuse and resist (which is not mature; illogical; not constructive; unbiblical...)

Exactly my point! If she wasn't so concerned with me doing things her way, then I would be allowed to go to other churches where I am more comfortable and can still learn the "truth".

Okay, but two points:
1) Comfortable is not a very good term to be used here... You can be lulled in a false sense of comfort an security... but there would be still a problem.
2) The truth is worthwhile, not 'truth'. You can start to learn the truth even not going anywhere. By the way, what denomination does your mother belongs to?

Even if you like a subject matter, it isn't enjoyable if you're discussing it with people you aren't fond of.

Agree.
But don't let personal matters prevent your from doing what is the best for you.

Perhaps. But the example that has been set before me by God Himself isn't a very good one. My mother being the example.

Example of what? Good example or bad example?
Pattern of how to act or how not to act?
Let's decide on that...

If she's a bad example of a person who ruins her child spiritually, try not to follow this example, but don't refuse just anything indiscriminately.

I'm not getting the two confused. You may program a robot to behave a certain way, but you may not have to tell it what to do. Just like this, God has created me a certain way and knows what my bahaviors and choices are and will be.

Yes, but He expects you to do correct choices.
God has created you to be with Him - here and in eternity. He has opened the door, you may just do one step to come in.

Absolutely not? Any proof?

This is a part of God's character. He's Truthful, and no there's no lie in Him. By definition...

Sounds to me like you're saying salvation is gained in apathy.

Negative
I mean to say that you should find the happy medium... the golden mean, and not let you feelings distort you ability to think logically.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

Okay SoliD. Tell me if I get your point. God does not dictate our choices, but he molds us a certain way. And by the way he molds us we inevitably end up in heaven or hell.

I guess if you were going to put it into the smallest nutshell possible, that would be correct. Most of the criticisms of Calvinvism in truth are criticisms of what is called "Hypercalvinism" which is the conclusion that God actually dictates all of our decisions and we are nothing more than puppets which is not what John Calvin proposed at all.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

But, I cannot agree that evil is "internal reality". Maybe it does make more sense in the context, but not as it is in your signature...
Still, this is a much broader topic - Good vs. Evil, so here I've just set forth my opinion.

The whole quote which I couldn't put in my signature due to space goes as such " Evil is more than an exterior reality that endangeres universal suffering; it is an internal relaity from which we run."
As far as finding an online version for you to read, due to limitation in time on my part I will do my best to get one for you tommorow.

Sincerely,
SolideoGloria

 

[valorforGod]

Paul talked about in the Scriptures us (as in those who had accepted the truth about Jesus Christ and becoming Christians) as being predestined in Christ. I have always believed that the Scriptures teach that we are predestined to do the things that we do, such as accepting Christ, but that we also do have free-will at the same time. Allow me to explain. God knows all before it happens. Thus, predestination is correct, in the sense that God already knows what our choices will be before they ever even come up in our lives. He knows all about all. So, predestination. But at the same time, God doesn't walk up to us and tell us what we are going to do. He allows us to choose, because our knowledge is finite and not all encompassing like His. Thus, free-will enter the picture. So, from God's perspective, free-will of His creatures exist at the same time as Him already knowing what we will do [predestination]. God bless!!!

 

[Mike182]

Paul talked about in the Scriptures us (as in those who had accepted the truth about Jesus Christ and becoming Christians) as being predestined in Christ. I have always believed that the Scriptures teach that we are predestined to do the things that we do, such as accepting Christ, but that we also do have free-will at the same time. Allow me to explain. God knows all before it happens. Thus, predestination is correct, in the sense that God already knows what our choices will be before they ever even come up in our lives. He knows all about all. So, predestination. But at the same time, God doesn't walk up to us and tell us what we are going to do. He allows us to choose, because our knowledge is finite and not all encompassing like His. Thus, free-will enter the picture. So, from God's perspective, free-will of His creatures exist at the same time as Him already knowing what we will do [predestination]. God bless!!!

hmmm, so God knows exactly what we are going to do, even before we reach that stage of decision, and s/he knows we will never choose option B, but it is still out choice....... from what i can see in that view point, we don't have the potential to make a different choice!

i view it like this:
premise

1. God is infinite
2. there are infinite combinations of choices
3. God can see all the choices (even if we can't) and can see all their outcomes, their implications on other decisions for every person it relates to, and their consequences (something we cannot fully foretell)

conclusion: we have the free will to make up our own minds, and God is still God (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent etc)

 

[zombieharlot]

I guess if you were going to put it into the smallest nutshell possible, that would be correct. Most of the criticisms of Calvinvism in truth are criticisms of what is called "Hypercalvinism" which is the conclusion that God actually dictates all of our decisions and we are nothing more than puppets which is not what John Calvin proposed at all.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

Okay, well then that small nutshell is how I've always thought on the matter. Thanks for your insight!

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

I have always believed that the Scriptures teach that we are predestined to do the things that we do, such as accepting Christ, but that we also do have free-will at the same time.

This is not a paradox but a contradiction by definition.

God knows all before it happens. Thus, predestination is correct, in the sense that God already knows what our choices will be before they ever even come up in our lives. He knows all about all. So, predestination.

This is not an explaination of Biblical or secular predesination but rather it is an explaination of omniscience(Psalms 139). Omniscience does not equal or automatically conclude predestination. As I stated before:

As far as predestination goes, the Biblical rendition of the word in the NT (Rom. 8, Eph. 1, etc) is the greek word "proorizo", which means preset boundaries, not that God controls us like puppets. That would be "Hypercalvinism" which is a heresy.

But at the same time, God doesn't walk up to us and tell us what we are going to do.

Yes He does; Deut. 31:16-20, Jer. 1:4-7; Acts 9:1-16, etc.........

He allows us to choose, because our knowledge is finite and not all encompassing like His. Thus, free-will enter the picture.

This is not an explaination of "free will" but rather of just a will. Finite knowledge certainly no more equals free will than infinite knowledge equals predestination. If nothing else, finite knowledge puts even further restrictions on the will making it even less free. Once again, as I stated before:

For a hint on what true "free will" is, Just the ability to choose is not it. That is simply a will:
*** The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 ***
Will \Will\, n. [OE. wille, AS. willa; akin to OFries. willa,
OS. willeo, willio, D. wil, G. wille, Icel. vili, Dan.
villie, Sw. vilja, Goth wilja. See {Will}, v.]
[1913 Webster]
1. The power of choosing; the faculty or endowment of the
soul by which it is capable of choosing; the faculty or
power of the mind by which we decide to do or not to do;
the power or faculty of preferring or selecting one of two
or more objects.
For those who believe in "free will", there needs to be a qualification of what choices need to be "free" of in order to truly be a "free will" decision.

BTW, Welcome to Religious Forums and God Bless!!! Happy Posting

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria